How safe are all these Twin Otters?

[stateofnature 0]

The United States Air Force Academys 98 FTS has had their fleet of Otters grounded for over a month. Now, these birds are the finest otters in the galaxy (due to the limitless amount of money and contracted maintence no doubt).

Now when you take cash flow out of the picture, and you are not motivated by quotas, and your first concern is the safety of your crew and students, then why are they all grounded and the rest of the skydiving world seems to fly on?

Shit...did I just answer my own question? Hope you feel safe in YOUR otter!!!


Let the uneducated smear, let the educated think.

[PhreeZone 15]

I'm quite happy to be jumping from CSS's fleet of completely over hauled and upgraded Super Otters. Some of the finest planes that I've seen on the skydiving circuit lately.

Most have new turbines, at least one of them has a new wing since Otter wings have a limited life time. All the planes follow the maintence layed out by the manufactor. Not to mention the maintence shop is the same one that a lot of the DZ's on the east coast send their planes to for maintence so they know their stuff since they only have to work on a very limited selection of planes.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JJohnson 0]

For what reason are they grounded? Not enough jumpers to keep them up in the air for back to back loads? No Marines to really fly them?

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[billvon 2,421]

>then why are they all grounded and the rest of the skydiving world seems to fly on?

Perhaps because they are the military, and do things differently than the civilian world. I used to work for the Air Force, and aircraft at the base I worked at were often grounded for some very bizarre reasons.

[scottjaco 0]

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then why are they all grounded and the rest of the skydiving world seems to fly on?

Because it's a hell of a lot better than a Cessna

[wingnut 0]

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then why are they all grounded and the rest of the skydiving world seems to fly on?

as an f-16 crew chief ( fighter mechanic) i can give you a general idea but nothing specific as i'm not involved in that plane or specific incedent....

the military does things very diffrently that the civilian world as bill von said, if there is a discrepency in the paperwork for smethig very minute that the civilian world would over look well the military will ground the plane or all planes afected until it is found out what is eaxtly the matter.... as i do at most dropzones i look at the planes when ever i have a free minute (as i did and was made fun of by some jumpers in eloy over the holiday boogie, but i found 3 diffrent things (minor) i would of fixxed just by looking around on the ride up to altitude) and i can tell you if the military was flying most any jump plane they would not only condem it but ground it for a vey long time untill it wass all fixed... next time you fly in a jump plane lok at it and i don;t mean just give t a quick look over.. you will find missing rivits, crack (hopefully stop drilled) and various other minor things that would ground a airforce plane... just because itis used in jumping doesn't meanit is held to the same standards as the rest of the worlds jump planes....

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"i have no reader's digest version"

[mjosparky 3]

When the military contracts aircraft, i.e. a civilial jump aircraft, they require that the plane meet Part 135. Civilian aircraft that fly jumpers are only required to meet Part 91.

Wingnut, how many of these minor things you saw at Eloy would have affected the airworthyness of the aircraft? Would you hold an A/C that can barely do 200 KEAS to the same standard as an F-16 doing aeerobatics at 1.5 mach?

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but i found 3 diffrent (different) things (minor) i would of fixxed (fixed) just by looking around on the ride up to altitude)

Would you fix those "minor" things if the cost came out of your pocket and not from the parts bin of a Military base?
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JoeyRamone 0]

I will always jump the otters at Skydive Chicago.

They put more money into those planes to make sure they are in the best possible condition always.

Some DZ'S skip a beat every now and then do to the cost factor, I know SDC will spend any amount of money on their planes.

[flyhi 24]

I was at a military unit where all the aircraft were grounded because one mechanic was missing a small screw driver. I also remember looking around a civilian DC-3 and finding an 18-inch pipe wrench lying there. Just a difference in philosophy.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[riggerrob 558]

Twin Otters are almost idiot-proof jump planes.
However, if 20 idiots cram aft of the wing and the pilot lets it get a bit too slow on jump run, even an airplane as forgiving as a Twin Otter can be stalled and spun.
They were originally designed to have the snot beaten out of them on airstrips much shorter and rougher than found at most DZs. Their PT6 engines are cast-iron reliable and they are simple to fly.
However, safety in the long run is defined by the professionalism and dedication of pilots, mechanics, owners and skydivers.
The best pilots attend simulator training.
The best mechanics spend every Monday morning inspecting and ordering parts.
The best owners spend Monday afternoons paying for spare parts.
Fortunately attitudes towards airplane maintenance are improving in the skydiving business. Responsible owners now see their airplanes as investments/retirement funds. Consequently, they stay ahead of the game in terms of maintenance to preserve their investments and only allow the better pilots to touch the controls.
Skydivers can do their part by sitting down, belting up and shutting up. The better skydivers keep their weight forward until it is their turn to exit and waste little time fussing about in the door.

[flyangel2 2]

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Not enough jumpers to keep them up in the air for back to back loads?

I don't think that is an issue. I've seen the Air Force Otter go up with only one four way team on it.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Otters must be one of the safest jsps in the world!! We used to jump out of Nomads in Australia when they had a lot of twubble wif a little thing like da tail falling off. Something about resonance in both engines causing the tail to fall off when it felt like it. Happened mostly with the army aircraft at low level. We had a strengthening mod done to ours and our tail dain't sep from da plane. Funny that! BSBD! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[JJohnson 0]

With the budget the Air Farce has to burn I'm suprised tyhey don't use C-130's for 4 way practice.Best bases we ever stayed at were Air Farce. Them boys know how to live.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[stateofnature 0]

I hope all of you sleep better at night with your VAST generalizations. Maybe that little twitch in the back of your head wouldn’t be so compelling if you brought some facts to the table.

Being uninformed is no way to live, and a shitty way to skydive.

This type of thought most definately fits within the state of nature of man.

[diablopilot 2]

Point 1) The Air Force Acadamy Otters are grounded because the civilian contractor hired to service them does not have the paperwork in order. Not through any mechanical defect.

Point 2) From what I've seen of the Air Force Acadamy they beat on them harder than most skydiving operations. Short field landings, full reverse to stop quickly, backing them into the slot under their own power.


Edit: So what's your beef, or are you just stiring the pot?

Edit#2: Another source has informed me that they may still be grounded because the R&M budget has been used up already. Apparently they have recieved some hard use, and after multiple hot sections they wallet is empty.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[pilotdave 0]

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I hope all of you sleep better at night with your VAST generalizations. Maybe that little twitch in the back of your head wouldn’t be so compelling if you brought some facts to the table.

Being uninformed is no way to live, and a shitty way to skydive.

Facts? You posted that the air force academy had their fleet grounded without saying why. If there was a reason for the rest of the twin otters to be grounded, the FAA would say something. Sounds like it was a paperwork issue so what kind of answer do you want? I mean how do you know ANY plane you get onto is safe? Gotta trust the people that maintain them and inspect them. If you don't trust them, then you either don't get on the plane in the first place, or get on and worry the wings are going to fall off the entire flight.

Dave

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I hope all of you sleep better at night with your VAST generalizations. Maybe that little twitch in the back of your head wouldn’t be so compelling if you brought some facts to the table.

Being uninformed is no way to live, and a shitty way to skydive.

This type of thought most definately fits within the state of nature of man.

It's not a secret that many dz's cut corners on airplanes...and most people in the sport eventually hear what dz's to avoid.

I do sleep well at night - I know how good my DZ takes care of thier two otters. We have a shop onsite and the mechanic lives on the dz.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[diverdriver 5]

They're STILL grounded? Man, how long has it been already?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[mjosparky 3]

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I hope all of you sleep better at night with your VAST generalizations. Maybe that little twitch in the back of your head wouldn’t be so compelling if you brought some facts to the table.

Being uninformed is no way to live, and a shitty way to skydive.

This type of thought most definately fits within the state of nature of man.

It sounds to me like you have a personal agenda for bring up this issue. You are the one that "set the table", do you have any "facts" or are you just running you mouth?
Being a smart ass also is no way to live, and a shitty way to skydive.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diverdriver 5]

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then why are they all grounded and the rest of the skydiving world seems to fly on?

Because the rest of the skydiving community knows how to train their pilots so they don't overtorque the engines continuously? (Well, I know they do it. We just aren't scrutinized like a military establishment.)

And the deep pockets in the military don't seem to be as deep as some might think?

Just a thought.

I re-read your post and you did say over a month. So I guess that does answer my other question about how long have they been grounded. I just thought I had heard about this like more than 2 months ago but I could be wrong.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[indyz 1]

They've apparently been ground since some time in January.

[stateofnature 0]

I absolutely positively have a personal agenda, I call it my life. See, the old skydiving routine doesn’t faze me. I got enough skill to handle myself. But the aircraft is out of my control, isn’t it?

Oh, I know we all preach to see the pilots credentials, and aircraft records and such. But can the average skydiver see and UNDERSTAND them? Probably not, and those that can see and understand these forms, do they have the balls to ask, or care too? Sounds to me like those that ask to see them could be labeled as troublemakers and sent packing. How exactly do you check the paperwork of leased aircraft?

Look at all these questions, yet all I hear is, “our planes are great because we have an onsite mechanic” … HOLY SHIT if that’s not the scariest statement of the century. So is this a burnout that couldn’t get a real job with the airlines…the jet engine too much for his reciprocating engine brain? I’d rather the aircraft are taken to a national company with the resources available than to Joe Bunda of the greesemonkey crew. Oh I know we all like Joe, but there is a reason Joe works for the DZ and not the big boys.

I like the philosophy that if you beat the plane up more it means it is crappier. Well that is a tried and true argument of the ages isn’t it. Mechanics from all walks of life have been trying to prove and disprove this theory. Aircraft like the C-17 were built to withstand 150% of operating limits and loads and yet the USAF doesn’t break the 85% barrier on any given day or wartime situation. (Yes, I was a USAF Aircraft mechanic for many years, PLEASE don’t preach to me about grounding a fleet of aircraft based on paperwork, I’ve never heard of it).

I like the guy that compared the grounding of an Air Force fleet to find a screwdriver vs. a DC-3. As if the complexity of a DC-3 could even be compared to a C-5 or such. Yes, you can leave a wrench in the cargo hold of a DC-3, but a screwdriver missing in the Pitch Trim Moter of a C-5 could potentially be fatal. That difference in philosophy has improved TREMENDOUSLY. It’s called Foreign Object Damage … and I’d hate to break it too you… it’s real!!! (BTW when an object gets misplaced there is an inspection of the aircraft that ONLY THE MECHANIC VISITED WITH HIS TOOLBOX, not an entire fleet … but … good job with the generalities, again.

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“They put more money into those planes to make sure they are in the best possible condition always.”

… who says? Compared to who? How do you know exactly? Are you basing this on the rumor mill, someone told you, or are you the accountant at your DZ?

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”Some DZ'S skip a beat every now and then do to the cost factor, I know SDC will spend any amount of money on their planes.”

Again, how do you know? Firsthand knowledge strait from the DZO’s mouth to his Pocketbook? Just curious???

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“Perhaps because they are the military, and do things differently than the civilian world. I used to work for the Air Force, and aircraft at the base I worked at were often grounded for some very bizarre reasons.”

Air Force Aircraft are NOT grounded for bizarre reasons. A red X in the forms (which means that there is a discrepancy that makes the aircraft unflyable or puts the aircraft in a possible dangerous or unknown condition (i.e. an emergency system is unsuitable, but the aircraft is flyable, panel is off … etc…) until it is (1) Cleared by maintenance, i.e. fixed; and/or (2) Waived by the Aircraft Commander, the pilot and is usually conferred with the Production Supervisor. Bizarre conditions would only be read by someone that didn’t understand the aircraft.

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“I'm quite happy to be jumping from CSS's fleet of completely over hauled and upgraded Super Otters. Some of the finest planes that I've seen on the skydiving circuit lately.”

Yes, that paint job that makes um look snazzy is the first indication that they are shit hot performers and have perfect maintenance and pilot control. Good thing it’s overhauled and upgraded … ummm can you tell all of us EXACTLY what that means? What part is upgraded in the aircraft that makes it better and a non-upgraded one? Was there something wrong with the non-upgraded version that people have been wooled over for 30 years? What parts are changed? How many times has the same engine been overhauled?

Hey, I have no answers, I only have questions. What exactly can we do here to help us be safe? I wish I could wave the magic wand and make it better. Until then I challenge every skydiver to figure out something that can make us all more informed.

[billvon 2,421]

>So is this a burnout that couldn’t get a real job with the airlines…the
> jet engine too much for his reciprocating engine brain? I’d rather the
> aircraft are taken to a national company with the resources available
> than to Joe Bunda of the greesemonkey crew.

I think if you met Pat Conatser you would not consider him a burnout with a greasemonkey crew. There are people who simply prefer skydiving over working for Pan Am. (Or heck, who were once working for Pan Am and got the shaft.)

>(Yes, I was a USAF Aircraft mechanic for many years, PLEASE don’t
> preach to me about grounding a fleet of aircraft based on
> paperwork, I’ve never heard of it).

??? Wow! You've never had an aircraft grounded because the engine logs showed an AD not complied with, even though it clearly had been? That has grounded several planes at the place I used to rent aircraft. At one point a fuel bladder problem that we _didn't_ have (the bladders had all been replaced) grounded all the 182's. They had been replaced at the same time but (you guessed it) there was a problem in the airframe log.

While I was working for the Air Force, a C130 was grounded because someone couldn't find a wrench out of a toolbox he had taken out of the hangar. They had counted all the tools after the work on the C130 and the guy had taken the toolbox out back to work on his car (which he got busted for.) And he lost the wrench. They also lost the signature on the signoff, so the plane was grounded.

> What exactly can we do here to help us be safe?

Get a pilot's license so you can better understand what makes for safe aircraft operation. Hang around your DZO's maintenance hangar when they are maintaining the aircraft. Offer to help; heck, with your experience they might be able to use you. Talk to your DZO about their maintenance schedule. Ask to see the logs.

[pilotdave 0]

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While I was working for the Air Force, a C130 was grounded because someone couldn't find a wrench out of a toolbox he had taken out of the hangar.

Thats nothing. A missing wrench could literally shut down the production line at the company I work for. The tool boxes use foam cutouts with a bright yellow background. Each tool has its place, and if it's missing, it'll be very obvious.

I participated in a safety walkaround of an aircraft a couple weeks ago. We had to empty our pockets before getting into the aircraft, and we weren't even allowed to use our own pens. If we didn't turn a pencil in, they'd have to shut down the hangar until it was found.

Dave

[diablopilot 2]

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Oh, I know we all preach to see the pilots credentials, and aircraft records and such. But can the average skydiver see and UNDERSTAND them? Probably not, and those that can see and understand these forms, do they have the balls to ask, or care too? Sounds to me like those that ask to see them could be labeled as troublemakers and sent packing. How exactly do you check the paperwork of leased aircraft?

So what the "F" is your point. The people who have responded have indicated they have taken an interest in finding out if the aircraft they are riding are well maintained. I KNOW the ones I have had the pleasure to ride regularly have been, both at my current DZ, and my previous one. I know the mechanics personaly, and have seen their work. I'm no A&P but I can tell the difference between shoody work and work properly done with care. The image of an aircraft also speaks volumes to the jumpers that might be uninformed of not know how to read thos A/C logs. When an issue as small as a snap for holding the bentch up and out of the way, or a cracked door panel is replaced the day after it is pointed out, that is a good sign that the owners and maintinece staff have an interest in protecting both their investment and ensuring safe operations.


Why are you brow beating those jumpes that have taken an interest. How about you spend some time at the DZ showing the new jumpers what to look out for.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.