should dz make tandem mandatory first jump?

[hookitt 0]

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Bored and online is the sentiment you can read between the lines.

Having some fun.. same as you.. it's all good and yes, I laughed at your comments. The banning comment was an attempt and humor. Ah well, I'll stick to skydiving... or karaoke. I'll make the lines wider next time. sorry

I believe in Choices. I don't feel it's necessary to do a tandem first, but I do notice a difference in students that have done at least one previous tandem. Their performance is even better if it was a working tandem. It's very hard to describe the amp factor in many first jumpers. You'd be blown away at the creative positions a student has been known to fly in and still think it was an arch.

Instructors are just skydivers. However it's so much better if the instructor is allowed to teach the student rather then fight the student or have to save them.

Here's my answer to one of your questions. I went straight to AFF. I saw a brochure with a picture of an AFF level 1 student and the instructors smilling at the camera, and clouds in the back ground. It was a great shot. At that moment I knew that's what I wanted to do.

Here's readers digest condensed version of all that.

I don't think Tandems should be mandatory but it can sure make a difference in the student's performance and safety.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[propilot 0]

I just want to say that I bought the entire AFF license package as soon as i walked in. I had never made a skydive before. I dropped close to 2k before my first jump.

turns out they didnt have enough AFF instructors to support me. So one of the aff instructors offered to do the first two levels tandem. I accepted.
First two levels went awesome. perfect even.

3rd level? lol. it was one sided AFF...

unstable. potatohchippy, no pull. couldnt find handle. instructor had to pull for me.


I reccomend against the tandem progression. There is a HUGE difference in controlling your body when you have a big guy above you and a drouge providing some stability. as soon as i was on my own it was completly different.



Now i like the theoretical idea of first two levels tandem, then tunnel time. then level 3.

heh, but what you going to do? build on tunnel on every dz?

[freeryde13 0]

***I'll quote, "If the tandem progression method had come along before AFF, there would be no AFF.

quoting who? doesn't really matter.....but if i had to do a tandem i wouldn't be in love with this sport the way i am, wouldn't have even tried it actually. yes a tandem benifits some students , but it also is a kind of circus or amusement ride for alot of people. wich is cool...choice is key, ......but ,it also kind of cheapens the "purity" of the sport.

and how many times waiting to do an aff jump did i get bumped for a damn tandem jump.

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people see me as a challenge to their balance

[freeryde13 0]

***No. A person could have way too many things gone wrong, brain lock for starters, that can kill you. What is brain lock, in my words, you freeze from fear and do not know how to react, and then you die

damn bro, why get out of bed then, you might get brain lock and trip, you might get hit by a bus getting coffe, a piano might fall on you too.

[/quoteA tandem is the best way for a person to see if they like skydive or not, many people want to jump until that door opens at 12,000 feet, then fear sets in, if you have no fear the first time, none at I, I can bet I will be reading about you in the incident section down the read...This is my opinion too. They have tandems in place for a reason, it is not about making money on you, and some people think that way. A tandem jump is the best way any person can experience a skydive with out having to do anything. Enjoy the ride and make your decisions from that point forward.



the best way for some not others though.....if safety is the issue, what are the statistics of first jump incidents aff vs tandem?

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people see me as a challenge to their balance

[Pendragon 1]

In a word: No. Where's the freedom of choice in that?

Aren't AFF and Tandems directed at completely different markets? As we all know, your average tandem student never makes another jump. But I suppose that was the point really; a way (for them) of getting to experience free-fall without having to undertake all the ground training and, in some cases especially, accept responsibility.

I did AFF straight off as I'd already decided that I wanted to be a skydiver. I also wanted to be in control, which may sound a little strange to some, but it was important to me. I don't remember the 1st 5 secs or so (sensory overload I'm sure), but still made my DPs and got the pull (after a little fumble). As for progression, sure I got stuck around levels 4 & 5, although once I'd found the magic "balance point" I was fine...
Tunnel time however, as part of a basic training programme, seems like a great idea and I'm sure I could have benefitted... Wouldn't this be a slightly better introduction?

...but I'm not an instructor, so take from this what you will...

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[nightjumps 1]

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but it also is a kind of circus or amusement ride for alot of people. wich is cool...choice is key, ......but ,it also kind of cheapens the "purity" of the sport.

I didn't become a TI until two years ago for that reason. However, since being embraced as an instructional methodology and really learning how the AFP program works from one of the DZs that employs only that methodology did I see how effective it can be.

With the ISP, there is no reason to not commingle any of the methodologies to provide the best tailored program for any student.

[packerboy 3]

I don't believe at all that it cheapens the purity of the sport one bit. How exactly is a sport pure anyway? It's a sport, it's fun, it's an addiction to many. But I think you are looking at it way too philosophically. I will probably get blasted for that comment but I don't care.

Tandems introduce alot of people to our sport. Sure alot of people don't go any further than one tandem but who cares really? If it weren't for tandems than a very great percentage of people who have done a skydive wouldn't have.

Skydiving is an addiction to me. I thinks its really damn fun and I want as many people to have as much fun as possible. Carnival ride? FUN! Who the hell doesn't like the carnival? What's bad about it?

Back to the original question, Yes. Tandems are the safest way to do a first jump. You don't know how people are going to react in the air the first time, there is no magical way of telling. Even after a tandem, you don't know how they are going to react. But it does raise the level of safety some. Is anyone actually arguing that? Even raising that bar a little bit may just save a life. If we can make things safer than why aren't we? Just read that forum about the two girls in Calgary, they didn't want to become skydivers, they just wanted to do a first jump (second for one), but yeah, they just wanted to do a carnival ride. Perhaps if they had done tandems, one of them would still be alive and the other wouldn't have been severely FUBAR'd.

I would like to take sort of an unofficial little poll here.

How many of the people opposed to making a tandem mandatory for FJ have done a tandem for their FJ? And vice versa. Are we all just arguing that our own way was better? If that's what, underneath, we are really arguing about, than it's all a moot point.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[jlmiracle 7]

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In a word: No. Where's the freedom of choice in that?

Huh? Not quite sure what you are replying to, please remind me.

Aren't AFF and Tandems directed at completely different markets? As we all know, your average tandem student never makes another jump.

No, they are marketed to people who want to skydive.

Alot if people I've encountered who want to learn to skydive are turned off by the 6+ hour ground school and they just don't have that much time to "waste".

What people think they want isn't always what the know they want.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[cornishe 0]

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Having some fun.. same as you..
...
I don't think Tandems should be mandatory but it can sure make a difference in the student's performance and safety.

No worries. Things always get misinterpreted when written.

I think we've beaten this subject to death now.

cheers.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[Nullified 0]

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choice is key, ......but ,it also kind of cheapens the "purity" of the sport.

How exactly?
It bothers me when I hear people describe tandems as a carnival ride. Regardless of the specifics, there's nothing trivial about tossing yourself out of an airplane.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Shark 0]

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It bothers me when I hear people describe tandems as a carnival ride.

Both can be disorienting to whuffos. Just ask the dude that hurled.

[scottjaco 0]

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Alot if people I've encountered who want to learn to skydive are turned off by the 6+ hour ground school and they just don't have that much time to "waste".

That sounds like code for "not interested". They just don't want to come right out and say it.

[Nullified 0]

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Alot if people I've encountered who want to learn to skydive are turned off by the 6+ hour ground school and they just don't have that much time to "waste".

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That sounds like code for "not interested". They just don't want to come right out and say it.

I don't know about that. I can't say for sure, but I may not have bothered with it either. I made my first jump because I was curious and had just always wanted to try it.
Tandems are the equivalent of sleeping together before buying a ring

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[scottjaco 0]

Tandem students do effect the "purity" of our sport.

I've always thought of it as cheating. Thrill without the responsibility or consequence. It attracts the wrong type of individual. Someone who wants to participate in a sport but do absolutely nothing to learn about it.

[diverdriver 5]

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Tandem students do effect the "purity" of our sport.

I've always thought of it as cheating. Thrill without the responsibility or consequence. It attracts the wrong type of individual. Someone who wants to participate in a sport but do absolutely nothing to learn about it.

Scott. You say you've been in the sport 2 years. What do you know about the "purity" of the sport. Man, sorry, but you just haven't been in long enough make the comment imo.

I worked full time for a "tandem factory" at SDC. I can assure you that if any of my family members wanted to learn how to skydive THAT is exactly where I would want them to do it. I have high esteem for the program and the people who run it.

I'm sorry, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. I used to instruct full time in aircraft. We did what were called FAM Flights. It was about 20-30 minutes with little to no prep before getting in the plane. We didn't make them take their FAA PPL written before getting in the plane. We gave them enough to wet their apetite and answer all their questions. It was quick but if you had the right attitude you'd get more flight students than the next school. Well, apply that attitude to skydiving and do tandems which DO make things more efficient for a medium to larger school and BENEFITS the experienced jumpers by affording a turbine airplane instead of having two planes that have to run students to one altitude (static line) and one plane to run the experienced jumpers to another. (Holy run on sentence batman!) We take them on a tandem and give them an altimeter. We teach them how to read it. We teach them how to pull. They know body position. We point out where the airport is and how to steer the canopy after deployment. Why overload the student? This begins the steady progression towards learning to be a fully licensed skydiver.

I know the program works because I see all the people who come back for a second jump. It's more than I saw at other operations I've flown at. It's the program and the attitude. Tandem only first CAN be done right and be a benefit. It's ops that treat it like a carnival ride that are hosing themselves. It can be so much more.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Pendragon 1]

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I've always thought of it as cheating. Thrill without the responsibility or consequence. It attracts the wrong type of individual. Someone who wants to participate in a sport but do absolutely nothing to learn about it.

Absolutely!

By contrast, it took me nearly 2 years to learn to hang glide: sitting on hills, waiting for the right weather/wind conditions, pushing a glider up the hill, rigging, de-rigging... It certainly separated those who really wanted to do it from the rest.

Let's not make learning to skydive even easier...

From the perspective of someone who qualified only last October, I still think tandems have their place - for those who just want to "dip their toe" or maybe really want to do it but find the first few steps a little daunting (with the tandem giving them sufficient confidence to start training proper)...but this is still up to the individual.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[AndyAnderson 0]

It is obvious the majority of instructors who have taught students who have and have not done a tandem agree what gives the best results and some jumpers who have no instructor ratings and very little experience have very strong opinions about how skydiving should be.

Scott .. Every one my thousand+ tandems is just as pure any other skydive I have ever done, and quite a few a lot more scary. How do you know that you are " The right type of individual ", and what are the right things to look for in skydiving individuals or is there any diversity in us.

You seem to have something against tandems (after you were told to stop bothering students and let the instructors do their jobs). I put as much energy into taking you on a sit / freefly coach jump for free at Lompoc (Skydive Santa Barara) as I put into taking every tandem and AFF and making the most of their jump. And doing those tandems and AFF is what allows a lot of us to keep jumping and almost make a living.

Andy

[riddler 0]

When I started skydiving at Mile Hi, the owner insisted that everyone start with a tandem. Knowing that I wanted to skydive, I didn't want to "waste time" or money with the tandem, but he insisted (in a rather unfriendly way, I might add ). After doing the tandem, I was glad I did, and I now think that the DZO was right.

I now help teach FJC at that same DZ. The rule about doing a tandem first is no longer enforced. I think this has to do with the fact that other DZs don't require it, so customers realize it's cheaper to go elsewhere. I now see a mix of students in the FJC - some have tandems and some do not have tandems. I see a big difference in the performance of AFF level 1 students, depending on if they have previous tandem experience. The ones that have never jumped before typically don't do as well - a lot of factors go into how well the students do, but no matter how athletic or focused a person is, I don't think anything really prepares you for that first experience.

What's interesting is how some instructors factor that in. One recent student received a pass on level 1 after pulling a few thousand feet too high. The AFFI said he was more lenient because the student had never jumped before. I would think that the standards would be the same whether you do a tandem or not. But I also believe that skydiving is a very individual sport, and I think it's great that instructors can give individual assessment to each student.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[tigra 0]

Sort of off topic, but I would NEVER call SDC a "tandem factory". Yes, they do a lot of tandems and other student jumps, and I'm sure the majority of income is from tandems, BUT the dzo(s) always make sure the "fun jumpers" are taken care of. How many other DZs dedicate at least one (sometimes 2) aircraft to fun jumpers and a second to students during peak season? That is not something a "tandem factory" would do!

I personally think a tandem as the first jump is a great idea. Should it be mandatory across the board? Probably not. But every DZ has a right to decide which training program(s) to offer and focus on. If you don't like what one dz has to offer, feel free to go somewhere else.

[Nullified 0]

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Tandem students do effect the "purity" of our sport.

I've always thought of it as cheating. Thrill without the responsibility or consequence. It attracts the wrong type of individual. Someone who wants to participate in a sport but do absolutely nothing to learn about it.

I don't agree with you. If someone wants to participate in this sport, following their Tandem they will go through the student program, same as everyone else.
And how can you say that doing a Tandem doesn't carry responsibility and consequence? Can you die or be maimed doing a Tandem?
Who keeps the student stable during their first AFF dive? The two instructors. Who deploys if the student forgets or is unable to? One of the two AFF instructors. If you and both AFF instructors fail to, then what? The AAD will probably do it.
Flying and landing the canopy is up to you, yes, but most DZs are also giving radio support to AFF students to assist them.
I guess teaching students on ram airs is also cheating because spotting is less of a problem.
I guess I cheated. I guess thousands of other skydivers cheated as well. I guess we're not really the 'right' type of individuals for this sport. Sorry, didn't mean to pollute your sport. I'll quit.

There is a lot of cheapening going on here, but not by Tandems.

Think about what you might be cheapening with your words.

Stay safe and pure,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[hookitt 0]

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Whoever read my deleted post... the other statement still stands.

I'm beginning to agree with this.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[scottjaco 0]

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You seem to have something against tandems

Absolutly not., did you read my earlier posts?

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(after you were told to stop bothering students and let the instructors do their jobs)

LOL! Yah, I told a Tandem student to bring somthing warm to wear after he asked me if we were going to be at New Cuyama for a while!

This happend after I was asked to answer the phones in the morning and get students started on their paperwork (waivers) before the staff even showed up!

Anyway, I'm not violently opposed to Tandems, I just don't see to many of them coming back. To those who do, great.

[Ron 7]

I can see the benefits of making someone do a tandem first.

1. They get to experience freefall without having to save themselves...even with AFF they are expected to be able to save themsevles.

2. They get the best canopy coaching they will ever get...I had a student that just could never get canopy control...I tried and tried to explain things to her, and so did others...She was going to quit. I did one tandem with her to give her hands on experience WITH me to show her the "majic spot" and the proper pattern...she now is a regular jumper. To give that to a student on the first jump is a very good teaching tool.

3. Its much more economical to have them do a tandem instead of a 6-8 hour ground school to make one jump and never return....AFF is around 275.00 here and a Tandem around 150.00. For those that just want to come out and make one its cheaper, faster and safer than AFF.

I could go one. I like the idea. If I had my choice of programs it would be two tandems, tunnel time, static lines, and advanced coaching.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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99% of Tandems will never jump again. I find that annoying.

More first time students who do AFF return to complete their training. This would suggest that AFF has deeper impact. DZ's would make more money if they ditched Tandems.

Facts or did you make this up?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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did a tandem in 95, and another in 2000. Last summer a girlfriend had been dying to go for a long time, so I set up a small group and decided I would do AFF this time. Had the place mandated tandems, I would have gone somewhere else.

I hate to break this to you...But you did TWO tandems....That could be why your AFF went so well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334