quade 3 #126 January 29, 2004 Thanks.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #127 January 29, 2004 The numbers are closer to 1 in 1000 USPA members will die each year. With about 30-32000 members thats 30-32 deaths per year. Take a look around Deland, odds are if you are out there for 2 months you'll bump into someone that will be dead from skydiving with in a few years. WFFC does 60000+ jumps in one week. With 3000+ USPA members present there is almost one fatality per year there. Its sobering to be in the main tent the first Saturday and to look around and know that at least one of those jumpers will be going home in a body bag.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #128 January 29, 2004 QuoteThe numbers are closer to 1 in 1000 USPA members will die each year. With about 30-32000 members thats 30-32 deaths per year. Quote this doesn't make sense.... because we've been hovering around 30-32 deaths a year TOTAL... and not all deaths are uspa members. Sometimes tandems die...sometimes students die (not all students are uspa members)... not everyone who dies every year is a USPA member...(or, if they are, heck..I'm letting my membership expire to ensure I won't die! ) I just don't see how that figure can be right... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #129 January 29, 2004 WHEW, I'm glad it's actually more than 1 in 400!! 1 in a thousand is MUCH better. 1 death in 60000jumps... or 1 in 3000 jumpers On a final note, let us all remember... Here's what the USPA says about the topic: Nobody would argue that skydiving is a safe thing to do. And statistics can be manipulated to make skydiving look very safe or very dangerous. Generally, safety in skydiving is determined by the individual. Rarely do skydiving accidents result from equipment failure or bad luck. Skydivers use good preparation and judgment to manage the obvious and inherent risks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JDBoston 0 #130 January 29, 2004 Stats don't mean too much when you lump all the tandem jumps in with all the other kinds of jumps and jumpers. I believe there are far fewer tandem fatalities relative to the number of tandem jumps. Re: the "one mistake" issue, it's very simple common sense and at the same time very easy (and not very useful) to over-analyze. As Ron says: we're soft and mostly water, and we splatter easily. Skydiving involves high closing speeds with solid objects (other jumpers, and the ground). Given these speeds, it only takes a moment of inattention, or the failure to make the right adjustment, when you're really close, to fuck up and collide. And, if you're going fast enough or hit wrong, to die. When people hook themselves in, that's EXACTLY what's happened. Sure, there can be contributing factors leading up to it, like trying to make it back from a bad spot, or canopy traffic, or whatever, but the fact remains that there was still only ONE specific point during the dive where their situation/trajectory became truly unrecoverable. Missing the chance to change course prior to that point, intentionally or unintentionally, is what killed them. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #131 January 29, 2004 QuoteStats don't mean too much when you lump all the tandem jumps in with all the other kinds of jumps and jumpers. I believe there are far fewer tandem fatalities relative to the number of tandem jumps. why don't they mean much? I mean...every tandem jump has a TM...and aren't most (all?) TMs USPA members? why shouldn't we include tandems...they are jumping out of an airplane.. another question: Do BASE jumps count in skydiving fatalities? (and do BASE jumps count as "skydiving"?) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JDBoston 0 #132 January 29, 2004 Because when you include tandem jump data, the predictive value of the stats re: solo jumps is reduced. IF I am correct that the tandem incident rate is significantly lower. Which I think I am. Also, BASE is not skydiving and those stats should not be mixed. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #133 January 29, 2004 Tandem rates are lower for a lot of reasons. TM's usually are more experienced jumpers and they can not take the same risk's or get in the same situations that other jumpers can. Tandems can only have freefall collisions with their videographer, there are no freefly issues, Hook turns don't happen on tandems... you just eliminated a lot of how solo jumpers die. Yes you bring all the tandem rig malfunctions into play, but you are reducing a lot of risk factors still. Simple fact is if you stick around long enough you will end up putting your friends into the ground due to skydiving.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pds 0 #134 January 29, 2004 Quote How does this prove your point that 1 SINGLE mistake will result in DEATH? in november of 2002 my partner was doing an AFF level 6. the rip cord slipped out of her hand. she made 2 attempts at finding it and was pulling silver before she fell through 3000 feet. the reserve system was faulty and jammed making it an impossible pull. she kept trying all the way down. the aad did not fire. i watched her die. she made one mistake followed by the same emergency procedures we all strive to be competent with and still died in a horribly violently destructive manner. thats one. there are more. as a matter of fact there are more whom i knew personally. do you really need to hear about them to accept the obvious and inescapable reality of this sport? there is no one in this discussion attempting to frighten anyone. there are simply people who know that one of the most dangerous things in skydiving is to believe that it is safe. listen or don't. it's your life. but to contribute unmitigated and unfounded dissent to such a critical topic does not help anyone including yourself. 'i heard this'... 'i have been told by'... sorry it's not about what one is told its about what one knows. good luck with your skydiving.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #135 January 30, 2004 QuoteAre you kidding with that? Your an instructor, how can you be annoyed with inexperienced jumpers? Oh Im not anoyed with inexperienced jumpers....Im annoyed with inexperienced jumpers THAT THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL....That is a BIG difference. QuoteStep down off that cloud and come back down to earth with me here... Same could be said for you...You are quoteing from others experiences...And websites...Mine are all my experiences...Things you don't know about. QuoteNice, really nice way to encourage and motivate You have made it quite clear that you think you know more about this than me...So Im not going to argue with you...you will not listen, so why should I talk? Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems all you want to do is bash real skydiving -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you need to step back and read without your personal defense mechanism... I'm the one here who believes in the safety of it.. oh, and I didn't know, but is there some sort of FAKE skydive I can make? That could help with practicing without risking my life!!! You said Quote..... and that's why I stick to vertical wind tunnels for my flying, no need to risk my life for a really awesome flight!!!! thenQuotehow in the world do you EVER jump from a plane without already knowing how to fly? I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE. I would probably be MORE scared if that were the case.. fortunatly, I did and as such I don't have the worry of altitude awareness, uncontrolled turns, losing heading or perspective, not even with a problem.. BTW my old piece partner was a tunnel rat...He is dead now since he lost altitude awareness..he could skydive circles around me...But he could not save his life when he needed to. Then you sayQuoteThat's why I keep it to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way That seems like bashing skydiving to me."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #136 January 30, 2004 Ok, Ron... I made a final post hours ago when you switched to the "other" thread but since you keep coming at me, I have to respond. I said: That's why I keep it [skydiving] to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way. and there is something wrong with that statement because????? Isn't that your WHOLE POINT for the last several posts? SKYDIVING ISN'T SAFE? How is acknowleging that BASHING it?????? How is maintaing a "student" attitude in this sport BAD??????? QuoteBTW my old piece partner was a tunnel rat...He is dead now since he lost altitude awareness Hmmm... since I don't know who your talking about I can't speculate, contrary to popular skydiver beliefs, tunnelrats (a name you must earn) do not have altitude awareness problems in the sky. There are those of us who grow in the tunnel and those of you who join in later. There is over 42 years worth of tunnel experience (and several hundred skydives) in this room with me now and I ASSURE YOU none of us have any sort of awareness issues. QuoteYou are quoteing from others experiences...And websites...Mine are all my experiences...Things you don't know about Gee, and I thought we were all here to "learn from eachothers experiences" I'm guessing with this method of education "first hand experiences only" the death toll yearly would be much higher than 32. I guess all the reading I've done isn't worth anything, and the thousands of posts are useless. QuoteYou have made it quite clear that you think you know more about this than me...So Im not going to argue with you I'm not sure of your definition of argue, but you have been going back and forth all day, every time, more of your posts in BOLD and more exclamation points each time. I have never said I know more than you... again I feel that you are insulted and therefore are not able to carry on a civilized conversation about this subject. I am sorry to those who have watched us argue, I really thought I might learn more from this particular jumper since we have so much in common; acquaintences, drop zones, tunnel time etc. I have apparently learned all I can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #137 January 30, 2004 >I ASSURE YOU none of us have any sort of awareness issues. Best test of this... jump with out an altimeter and with out an audibe and see how close you actually come to pulling at the right altitude. Can't do it? Then you don't have air awareness skills. Coming from a freeflying background to birdman flights my internal clock got majorly screwed. After a BM flight then a freefly I often find my self going a tad low since my internal clocks are totally off. Unless you are only doing 55-60 second flights in the tunnel, your internal clock is not set up for freefall. If you feel safer in the tunnel (and it is by magnitutudes) then actually jumping out of planes then keep doing it. But you might wnt to rethink jumping out of planes if you need refresher training that often. I've told that to more then one person at the DZ, if they only want to do 3 or 4 jumps a year... find a new sport and keep themself safe.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pds 0 #138 January 30, 2004 QuoteThere is over 42 years worth of tunnel experience (and several hundred skydives) in this room with me now and I ASSURE YOU none of us have any sort of awareness issues. thats a pretty bold statement. have you come to that conclusion from your extensive jumping history with them? or do you read minds? Maybe see the future? you are undermining any position you may think you have by making these types of statements. QuoteGee, and I thought we were all here to "learn from eachothers experiences" I'm guessing with this method of education "first hand experiences only" the death toll yearly would be much higher than 32. I guess all the reading I've done isn't worth anything, and the thousands of posts are useless. we ARE here to LEARN from others EXPERIENCE. Those with EXPERIENCE TEACH, those without LISTEN, not the other way around. same here as anywhere else in life. QuoteYou have made it quite clear that you think you know more about this than me... He/We seem to. QuoteSo Im not going to argue with you hmmm... not quite sure i believe that one. hope it is true. it is quite noisy. QuoteI have apparently learned all I can. that's an entirely subjective call. for your sake i hope it's not true.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #139 January 30, 2004 Ron, you cannot go around telling half truths... Most people may NOT bother doing the research..but I did. You said: Quote BTW my old piece partner was a tunnel rat...He is dead now since he lost altitude awareness..he could skydive circles around me...But he could not save his life when he needed to. The only report I could find states the following: Quote Florida policeman dies in parachute accident A Florida police officer died on Tuesday when his parachute failed to open. Officer Glenn Mendez, 29, of Lakeland, Florida was on a skydiving vacation with his father in the Dominican Republic. An accomplished skydiver, he had recently won a United States Parachuting Association competition in California. Mendez’s father was with him on the same jump and was videotaping the drill at the San Isidro Airbase. Apparently, Mendez’s main chute had a malfunction resulting in it being torn. Unfortunately, the reserve chute did not open either. Mendez packed his own parachutes. This was NOT a death due to a lack of altitude awareness nor is tunnelflying the reason your friend with Tunnelrage wasn't able to save his life. I could find no actual USPA info about this jump on any of the aforemention sites, nor through my 2002 parachutists but I guess that's because he wasn't in this country when it happend. Please do not make tunnelrats out to be poor skydivers, that would be a whole nother thread.. and would be misleading to those who don't already know better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #140 January 30, 2004 btw.... half your post is quoting the wrong person there... funny how if you use Ron's words from me they are somehow "misguided" but when you use them at me, they are ok? And as far as the awareness issues, well my previous post about the misleading statement from Ron outta cover it. My statements are no more bold than yours... when you are talking about something you know, you can say it with authority.. and so can I. As far as undermining my position... I couldn't see how that could be farther from the truth. And yes, I have learned all I can from that particular participant... and by the way Quote..it's not about what one is told its about what one knows Is that your attempt at some sort of Confucious like statement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pds 0 #141 January 30, 2004 my mistake. the point is that you are preaching to the choir. out.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites carbonezone 0 #142 January 30, 2004 Scotty's Vote = NO (not safe) Tamie's Vote = NO (not safe) I dare all of you as instructors or gonna be / wanna be instructors...those of you who want to make a living at this and to be held accountable for others to say "THIS IS A SAFE SPORT"!!! I double dare you! I want to hear how you answer an injured parties family when they ask "you told me it was safe go ahead and jump". Better have a GOOD Lawyer Get real people we are jumping out of airplanes! Before every jump both of us (scotty and myself) understand its NOT a safe activity and we could quite possibly GO-IN. Understanding and Respecting the fact that what we do is NOT safe is what makes us conscientious skydivers. Respect what you doing and dont under estimate it! The verbage and warning labels that are plastered on our gear is just there because its looks COOL too! My (our) opinion for what its worth! Scotty C = 12,000+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Tami C = 900+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pds 0 #143 January 30, 2004 Quote Scotty C = 12,000+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Tami C = 900+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" is that ALL. geez. get back to me when you know what you are talking about.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JDBoston 0 #144 January 30, 2004 Quote when you are talking about something you know, you can say it with authority.. So when Ron makes a comment about the reason his teammate and friend died, and you tell him he's lying, because you read something different in a whuffo "chute didn't open" newspaper article, it must be an example of you adhering to this belief... ? Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #145 January 30, 2004 Quote Ron, you cannot go around telling half truths... Most people may NOT bother doing the research..but I did. And you did it wrong, by going to a newspaper report. QuoteFlorida policeman dies in parachute accident A Florida police officer died on Tuesday when his parachute failed to open. Failed to open huh? Well he did pull it. And it did open. (more on this later) QuoteMendez’s main chute had a malfunction resulting in it being torn. Well I jumped that very same canopy a Sabre 107 at the Nationals in 2002. It was NOT torn. BTW I also had the reserve that he had in his rig that he bounced with in my rig. I did that so he could be at nationals with us...I was going to jump the rig, but we could not get the blood stains out of it. QuoteDate Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 2/12/2002 San Isidro, Dominican Republic MAL 29 850 ?/N Description: After a normal skydive, the deceased experienced a malfunction on his main canopy. He cutaway, but did not get a reserve out. Lessons:An AAD or RSL might have made a difference here. QuoteI could find no actual USPA info about this jump on any of the aforemention sites, nor through my 2002 parachutists but I guess that's because he wasn't in this country when it happend. So you just assumed you were right and I was wrong???? You just assumed that a whuffo news artical is more accurate than me???? And BTW it is in one of the sites.....Check #1 for 2002 Here So maybe your "research" was not very good huh? Maybe you don't know it all, or make desicions with less than enough info? The real story...If you care since you already "know it all" from the newspaper.....You probley don't want to hear this...How could I have it right and the newspaper have it wrong? Glenn and his Dad were down in the Dominican Rebublic. His Dad (Oscar...a GREAT man) was filming his sons last jump. On Frost we had a practice of "fruit looping" each other at break off. Basicly it was a gang pile right before break off. We would try to tackle someone and throw them. Glenn grabbed a guy and the guy grabbed Glenn. The problem is he grabbed a lowtimer and the lowtimer grab Glenns Cutaway handle...When they broke you can see the handle fly past the camera. Glenn pulled his main....And since it was cutaway it left. Glenn lost altitude awarness, and blew right through all of the Emergency altitudes. He spent the rest of his life trying to get the main out. He rolled about 20 degrees to his left and put his arms in front of his face...and hit like that. But what am I thinking???!?!?! You already "know it all" don't you. But I got this info from his Dad, a video tape, and witnesses on the ground...Your research was a whuffo newspaper artical...Your right, Im wrong, what was I thinking? Again you are wrong."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #146 January 30, 2004 Quote Glenn grabbed a guy and the guy grabbed Glenn. The problem is he grabbed a lowtimer and the lowtimer grab Glenns Cutaway handle...When they broke you can see the handle fly past the camera. Glenn pulled his main....And since it was cutaway it left. Glenn lost altitude awarness, and blew right through all of the Emergency altitudes. He spent the rest of his life trying to get the main out. He rolled about 20 degrees to his left and put his arms in front of his face...and hit like that. So.... he unknowingly had his cutaway handle pulled...so when he deployed his chute left? And he didn't realize that his chute had left...so he never pulled his reserve? Is that accurate? but..but...but... first off, that's so sad. But secondly, I have questions about this... did he not feel his main leave? Even if he didn't feel it leave or know that it left, isn't there a time when you think, "this isn't working, now what"? Or is that the loss of altitude awareness that you're talking about. Me..I'm beating myself up for trying for the main 3 times... with the 2-try rule...wouldn't he try to get the main out twice and go for his reserve? As for how he actually hit...how do you know that? What I mean is..you said his dad was filming him, but surely his dad pulled HIS chute, right? So...who saw him actually hit? Did he hit close enough to the DZ for people to see him come in? His poor poor dad...that's just aweful. How was he trying to get the main out? I mean...there shoudln't have even been a PC behind him...right? As experienced as he was....he didn't notice his main was completely gone? or at least didn't go for his reserve... (although with my limited experience, I can imagine going for the cutaway, which was already pulled, and wasting time going, "WHERE THE **** IS MY CUTAWAY PUD???") -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #147 January 30, 2004 QuoteSo.... he unknowingly had his cutaway handle pulled...so when he deployed his chute left? And he didn't realize that his chute had left...so he never pulled his reserve? Is that accurate? Yes. QuoteI have questions about this... did he not feel his main leave? You can't tell when it goes....Your main goes so fast. I didn't believe this myself till I saw a video of this happening to another jumper. QuoteEven if he didn't feel it leave or know that it left, isn't there a time when you think, "this isn't working, now what"? Or is that the loss of altitude awareness that you're talking about. Yes. That is the loss of altitude awareness I was talking about. Quotewith the 2-try rule...wouldn't he try to get the main out twice and go for his reserve? Unless he lost track of altitude. QuoteAs for how he actually hit...how do you know that? Witness on the ground. QuoteHis poor poor dad...that's just aweful Oscar is an AMAZING man. He brought the rig back to RWS...When he handed in the rig...He apologized for not being able to get the blood stains out!!! Not only did he bring the rig back from overseas, but he tried to CLEAN HIS SONS BLOOD off of it. And he gave me comfort while I cried like a baby at Glenns funeral. He is a strong man. QuoteHow was he trying to get the main out? I mean...there shoudln't have even been a PC behind him...right? As experienced as he was....he didn't notice his main was completely gone? or at least didn't go for his reserve... He never knew it was gone...And lost track of it all...Think about it, 2 grand is 6 seconds from impact."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #148 January 30, 2004 Quote Quotewith the 2-try rule...wouldn't he try to get the main out twice and go for his reserve? Unless he lost track of altitude. but isn't that the point of the 2-try rule? So that you don't really have to stay altitude aware in an emergency, you just know that if you tried twice then you're done, move along to the next step..? I was told that the reason for the 2-try rule is because there were people fighting mals all the way to the ground...and with a 2-try rule you know to STOP after two tries, regardless of altitude, and move to the next thing.... (which is why, even though I was under canopy at 2K, I am still kicking myself about my reserve ride a few weeks ago...because I tried 3 times. STUPID! Could have had a worse outcome, glad it didn't....) Quote QuoteAs for how he actually hit...how do you know that? Witness on the ground. So he was close enough to where they were going to land and people actually saw him hit? Yeesh. Quote Oscar is an AMAZING man. He brought the rig back to RWS...When he handed in the rig...He apologized for not being able to get the blood stains out!!! Not only did he bring the rig back from overseas, but he tried to CLEAN HIS SONS BLOOD off of it. Ya know...that's...that's just... I don't have the words. that's...ick..and gawd...and all sorts of bad feeling words. I can't even come up with the words. Quote Think about it, 2 grand is 6 seconds from impact. So they were pulling at 2K? jeez....that's 500 below my hard deck. and isn't it 5 seconds every thousand feet...so about 10 seconds from impact? (not that 4 seconds is a lot...but it can be enough sometimes!!) 2K...and I'm twitchy about pulling at 4-4.5K... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #149 January 30, 2004 Quotebut isn't that the point of the 2-try rule? Its a good rule...Or better its a good starting point. I don't try twice and give up...But you should. I have an altitude that is my hard deck...At this altitude I WILL STOP THE SKYDIVE....I don't care how I do it...The skydive must end. Quote(which is why, even though I was under canopy at 2K, I am still kicking myself about my reserve ride a few weeks ago...because I tried 3 times. STUPID! Could have had a worse outcome, glad it didn't....) 1. You did what you were trained to do. 2. You lived. Both of those tell me you did fine....Im not in the habbit of telling people who lived how they could have done better. Could it have been handled "better"? Who cares? You lived, good job. QuoteSo he was close enough to where they were going to land and people actually saw him hit? Yeesh. People have to land somewhere...I have a buddy that had to step back to keep from getting hit once. QuoteSo they were pulling at 2K? jeez....that's 500 below my hard deck. I pull at 2,500. When I had 300-400 jumps and was bullet proof I used to pull at 1,200-1,500...Then I got a tad smarter. Having done all the stupid things I could think of...I would rather the new guys not make the same STUPID mistakes. Quoteisn't it 5 seconds every thousand feet...so about 10 seconds from impact? I have always been told, and told others that its 9 seconds for the first thousand, and 6 seconds every thousand after that. So its 12 seconds, but the last two don't really count unless you have already done something before you get there."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pkasdorf 0 #150 January 30, 2004 QuoteScotty's Vote = NO (not safe) Tamie's Vote = NO (not safe) I dare all of you as instructors or gonna be / wanna be instructors...those of you who want to make a living at this and to be held accountable for others to say "THIS IS A SAFE SPORT"!!! I double dare you! I want to hear how you answer an injured parties family when they ask "you told me it was safe go ahead and jump". Better have a GOOD Lawyer Get real people we are jumping out of airplanes! Before every jump both of us (scotty and myself) understand its NOT a safe activity and we could quite possibly GO-IN. Understanding and Respecting the fact that what we do is NOT safe is what makes us conscientious skydivers. Respect what you doing and dont under estimate it! The verbage and warning labels that are plastered on our gear is just there because its looks COOL too! My (our) opinion for what its worth! Scotty C = 12,000+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Tami C = 900+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Hey, Scotty and Tamie, may be because all this discussion going along between Ron, Elfanie, etc. you missed the point of the poll. The question is not if skydiving is safe or not. The question is if it is one of the safest risky sports or not. Saying that it is one of the safest risky sports is not saying it is safe. May be you think it is not one of the safest risky sports. In that case your NO perfectly applies. But that does not come up from what you wrote above. Nor is there any post in which you can claim that I do not respect what I am doing!!! (search all my posts!) Unfortunately discussion in this poll mostly veered to if it is safe or not. That discussion should belong to other polls and threads. This one is about safety comparing with other sports that put your life in danger. Is it safer than most of them? Is it not? That is the question, nothing more, nothing less! HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 6 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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Bodyflight.Net 0 #129 January 29, 2004 WHEW, I'm glad it's actually more than 1 in 400!! 1 in a thousand is MUCH better. 1 death in 60000jumps... or 1 in 3000 jumpers On a final note, let us all remember... Here's what the USPA says about the topic: Nobody would argue that skydiving is a safe thing to do. And statistics can be manipulated to make skydiving look very safe or very dangerous. Generally, safety in skydiving is determined by the individual. Rarely do skydiving accidents result from equipment failure or bad luck. Skydivers use good preparation and judgment to manage the obvious and inherent risks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #130 January 29, 2004 Stats don't mean too much when you lump all the tandem jumps in with all the other kinds of jumps and jumpers. I believe there are far fewer tandem fatalities relative to the number of tandem jumps. Re: the "one mistake" issue, it's very simple common sense and at the same time very easy (and not very useful) to over-analyze. As Ron says: we're soft and mostly water, and we splatter easily. Skydiving involves high closing speeds with solid objects (other jumpers, and the ground). Given these speeds, it only takes a moment of inattention, or the failure to make the right adjustment, when you're really close, to fuck up and collide. And, if you're going fast enough or hit wrong, to die. When people hook themselves in, that's EXACTLY what's happened. Sure, there can be contributing factors leading up to it, like trying to make it back from a bad spot, or canopy traffic, or whatever, but the fact remains that there was still only ONE specific point during the dive where their situation/trajectory became truly unrecoverable. Missing the chance to change course prior to that point, intentionally or unintentionally, is what killed them. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #131 January 29, 2004 QuoteStats don't mean too much when you lump all the tandem jumps in with all the other kinds of jumps and jumpers. I believe there are far fewer tandem fatalities relative to the number of tandem jumps. why don't they mean much? I mean...every tandem jump has a TM...and aren't most (all?) TMs USPA members? why shouldn't we include tandems...they are jumping out of an airplane.. another question: Do BASE jumps count in skydiving fatalities? (and do BASE jumps count as "skydiving"?) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #132 January 29, 2004 Because when you include tandem jump data, the predictive value of the stats re: solo jumps is reduced. IF I am correct that the tandem incident rate is significantly lower. Which I think I am. Also, BASE is not skydiving and those stats should not be mixed. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #133 January 29, 2004 Tandem rates are lower for a lot of reasons. TM's usually are more experienced jumpers and they can not take the same risk's or get in the same situations that other jumpers can. Tandems can only have freefall collisions with their videographer, there are no freefly issues, Hook turns don't happen on tandems... you just eliminated a lot of how solo jumpers die. Yes you bring all the tandem rig malfunctions into play, but you are reducing a lot of risk factors still. Simple fact is if you stick around long enough you will end up putting your friends into the ground due to skydiving.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #134 January 29, 2004 Quote How does this prove your point that 1 SINGLE mistake will result in DEATH? in november of 2002 my partner was doing an AFF level 6. the rip cord slipped out of her hand. she made 2 attempts at finding it and was pulling silver before she fell through 3000 feet. the reserve system was faulty and jammed making it an impossible pull. she kept trying all the way down. the aad did not fire. i watched her die. she made one mistake followed by the same emergency procedures we all strive to be competent with and still died in a horribly violently destructive manner. thats one. there are more. as a matter of fact there are more whom i knew personally. do you really need to hear about them to accept the obvious and inescapable reality of this sport? there is no one in this discussion attempting to frighten anyone. there are simply people who know that one of the most dangerous things in skydiving is to believe that it is safe. listen or don't. it's your life. but to contribute unmitigated and unfounded dissent to such a critical topic does not help anyone including yourself. 'i heard this'... 'i have been told by'... sorry it's not about what one is told its about what one knows. good luck with your skydiving.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #135 January 30, 2004 QuoteAre you kidding with that? Your an instructor, how can you be annoyed with inexperienced jumpers? Oh Im not anoyed with inexperienced jumpers....Im annoyed with inexperienced jumpers THAT THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL....That is a BIG difference. QuoteStep down off that cloud and come back down to earth with me here... Same could be said for you...You are quoteing from others experiences...And websites...Mine are all my experiences...Things you don't know about. QuoteNice, really nice way to encourage and motivate You have made it quite clear that you think you know more about this than me...So Im not going to argue with you...you will not listen, so why should I talk? Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems all you want to do is bash real skydiving -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you need to step back and read without your personal defense mechanism... I'm the one here who believes in the safety of it.. oh, and I didn't know, but is there some sort of FAKE skydive I can make? That could help with practicing without risking my life!!! You said Quote..... and that's why I stick to vertical wind tunnels for my flying, no need to risk my life for a really awesome flight!!!! thenQuotehow in the world do you EVER jump from a plane without already knowing how to fly? I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE. I would probably be MORE scared if that were the case.. fortunatly, I did and as such I don't have the worry of altitude awareness, uncontrolled turns, losing heading or perspective, not even with a problem.. BTW my old piece partner was a tunnel rat...He is dead now since he lost altitude awareness..he could skydive circles around me...But he could not save his life when he needed to. Then you sayQuoteThat's why I keep it to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way That seems like bashing skydiving to me."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #136 January 30, 2004 Ok, Ron... I made a final post hours ago when you switched to the "other" thread but since you keep coming at me, I have to respond. I said: That's why I keep it [skydiving] to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way. and there is something wrong with that statement because????? Isn't that your WHOLE POINT for the last several posts? SKYDIVING ISN'T SAFE? How is acknowleging that BASHING it?????? How is maintaing a "student" attitude in this sport BAD??????? QuoteBTW my old piece partner was a tunnel rat...He is dead now since he lost altitude awareness Hmmm... since I don't know who your talking about I can't speculate, contrary to popular skydiver beliefs, tunnelrats (a name you must earn) do not have altitude awareness problems in the sky. There are those of us who grow in the tunnel and those of you who join in later. There is over 42 years worth of tunnel experience (and several hundred skydives) in this room with me now and I ASSURE YOU none of us have any sort of awareness issues. QuoteYou are quoteing from others experiences...And websites...Mine are all my experiences...Things you don't know about Gee, and I thought we were all here to "learn from eachothers experiences" I'm guessing with this method of education "first hand experiences only" the death toll yearly would be much higher than 32. I guess all the reading I've done isn't worth anything, and the thousands of posts are useless. QuoteYou have made it quite clear that you think you know more about this than me...So Im not going to argue with you I'm not sure of your definition of argue, but you have been going back and forth all day, every time, more of your posts in BOLD and more exclamation points each time. I have never said I know more than you... again I feel that you are insulted and therefore are not able to carry on a civilized conversation about this subject. I am sorry to those who have watched us argue, I really thought I might learn more from this particular jumper since we have so much in common; acquaintences, drop zones, tunnel time etc. I have apparently learned all I can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #137 January 30, 2004 >I ASSURE YOU none of us have any sort of awareness issues. Best test of this... jump with out an altimeter and with out an audibe and see how close you actually come to pulling at the right altitude. Can't do it? Then you don't have air awareness skills. Coming from a freeflying background to birdman flights my internal clock got majorly screwed. After a BM flight then a freefly I often find my self going a tad low since my internal clocks are totally off. Unless you are only doing 55-60 second flights in the tunnel, your internal clock is not set up for freefall. If you feel safer in the tunnel (and it is by magnitutudes) then actually jumping out of planes then keep doing it. But you might wnt to rethink jumping out of planes if you need refresher training that often. I've told that to more then one person at the DZ, if they only want to do 3 or 4 jumps a year... find a new sport and keep themself safe.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #138 January 30, 2004 QuoteThere is over 42 years worth of tunnel experience (and several hundred skydives) in this room with me now and I ASSURE YOU none of us have any sort of awareness issues. thats a pretty bold statement. have you come to that conclusion from your extensive jumping history with them? or do you read minds? Maybe see the future? you are undermining any position you may think you have by making these types of statements. QuoteGee, and I thought we were all here to "learn from eachothers experiences" I'm guessing with this method of education "first hand experiences only" the death toll yearly would be much higher than 32. I guess all the reading I've done isn't worth anything, and the thousands of posts are useless. we ARE here to LEARN from others EXPERIENCE. Those with EXPERIENCE TEACH, those without LISTEN, not the other way around. same here as anywhere else in life. QuoteYou have made it quite clear that you think you know more about this than me... He/We seem to. QuoteSo Im not going to argue with you hmmm... not quite sure i believe that one. hope it is true. it is quite noisy. QuoteI have apparently learned all I can. that's an entirely subjective call. for your sake i hope it's not true.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #139 January 30, 2004 Ron, you cannot go around telling half truths... Most people may NOT bother doing the research..but I did. You said: Quote BTW my old piece partner was a tunnel rat...He is dead now since he lost altitude awareness..he could skydive circles around me...But he could not save his life when he needed to. The only report I could find states the following: Quote Florida policeman dies in parachute accident A Florida police officer died on Tuesday when his parachute failed to open. Officer Glenn Mendez, 29, of Lakeland, Florida was on a skydiving vacation with his father in the Dominican Republic. An accomplished skydiver, he had recently won a United States Parachuting Association competition in California. Mendez’s father was with him on the same jump and was videotaping the drill at the San Isidro Airbase. Apparently, Mendez’s main chute had a malfunction resulting in it being torn. Unfortunately, the reserve chute did not open either. Mendez packed his own parachutes. This was NOT a death due to a lack of altitude awareness nor is tunnelflying the reason your friend with Tunnelrage wasn't able to save his life. I could find no actual USPA info about this jump on any of the aforemention sites, nor through my 2002 parachutists but I guess that's because he wasn't in this country when it happend. Please do not make tunnelrats out to be poor skydivers, that would be a whole nother thread.. and would be misleading to those who don't already know better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #140 January 30, 2004 btw.... half your post is quoting the wrong person there... funny how if you use Ron's words from me they are somehow "misguided" but when you use them at me, they are ok? And as far as the awareness issues, well my previous post about the misleading statement from Ron outta cover it. My statements are no more bold than yours... when you are talking about something you know, you can say it with authority.. and so can I. As far as undermining my position... I couldn't see how that could be farther from the truth. And yes, I have learned all I can from that particular participant... and by the way Quote..it's not about what one is told its about what one knows Is that your attempt at some sort of Confucious like statement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #141 January 30, 2004 my mistake. the point is that you are preaching to the choir. out.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #142 January 30, 2004 Scotty's Vote = NO (not safe) Tamie's Vote = NO (not safe) I dare all of you as instructors or gonna be / wanna be instructors...those of you who want to make a living at this and to be held accountable for others to say "THIS IS A SAFE SPORT"!!! I double dare you! I want to hear how you answer an injured parties family when they ask "you told me it was safe go ahead and jump". Better have a GOOD Lawyer Get real people we are jumping out of airplanes! Before every jump both of us (scotty and myself) understand its NOT a safe activity and we could quite possibly GO-IN. Understanding and Respecting the fact that what we do is NOT safe is what makes us conscientious skydivers. Respect what you doing and dont under estimate it! The verbage and warning labels that are plastered on our gear is just there because its looks COOL too! My (our) opinion for what its worth! Scotty C = 12,000+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Tami C = 900+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #143 January 30, 2004 Quote Scotty C = 12,000+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Tami C = 900+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" is that ALL. geez. get back to me when you know what you are talking about.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #144 January 30, 2004 Quote when you are talking about something you know, you can say it with authority.. So when Ron makes a comment about the reason his teammate and friend died, and you tell him he's lying, because you read something different in a whuffo "chute didn't open" newspaper article, it must be an example of you adhering to this belief... ? Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #145 January 30, 2004 Quote Ron, you cannot go around telling half truths... Most people may NOT bother doing the research..but I did. And you did it wrong, by going to a newspaper report. QuoteFlorida policeman dies in parachute accident A Florida police officer died on Tuesday when his parachute failed to open. Failed to open huh? Well he did pull it. And it did open. (more on this later) QuoteMendez’s main chute had a malfunction resulting in it being torn. Well I jumped that very same canopy a Sabre 107 at the Nationals in 2002. It was NOT torn. BTW I also had the reserve that he had in his rig that he bounced with in my rig. I did that so he could be at nationals with us...I was going to jump the rig, but we could not get the blood stains out of it. QuoteDate Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 2/12/2002 San Isidro, Dominican Republic MAL 29 850 ?/N Description: After a normal skydive, the deceased experienced a malfunction on his main canopy. He cutaway, but did not get a reserve out. Lessons:An AAD or RSL might have made a difference here. QuoteI could find no actual USPA info about this jump on any of the aforemention sites, nor through my 2002 parachutists but I guess that's because he wasn't in this country when it happend. So you just assumed you were right and I was wrong???? You just assumed that a whuffo news artical is more accurate than me???? And BTW it is in one of the sites.....Check #1 for 2002 Here So maybe your "research" was not very good huh? Maybe you don't know it all, or make desicions with less than enough info? The real story...If you care since you already "know it all" from the newspaper.....You probley don't want to hear this...How could I have it right and the newspaper have it wrong? Glenn and his Dad were down in the Dominican Rebublic. His Dad (Oscar...a GREAT man) was filming his sons last jump. On Frost we had a practice of "fruit looping" each other at break off. Basicly it was a gang pile right before break off. We would try to tackle someone and throw them. Glenn grabbed a guy and the guy grabbed Glenn. The problem is he grabbed a lowtimer and the lowtimer grab Glenns Cutaway handle...When they broke you can see the handle fly past the camera. Glenn pulled his main....And since it was cutaway it left. Glenn lost altitude awarness, and blew right through all of the Emergency altitudes. He spent the rest of his life trying to get the main out. He rolled about 20 degrees to his left and put his arms in front of his face...and hit like that. But what am I thinking???!?!?! You already "know it all" don't you. But I got this info from his Dad, a video tape, and witnesses on the ground...Your research was a whuffo newspaper artical...Your right, Im wrong, what was I thinking? Again you are wrong."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #146 January 30, 2004 Quote Glenn grabbed a guy and the guy grabbed Glenn. The problem is he grabbed a lowtimer and the lowtimer grab Glenns Cutaway handle...When they broke you can see the handle fly past the camera. Glenn pulled his main....And since it was cutaway it left. Glenn lost altitude awarness, and blew right through all of the Emergency altitudes. He spent the rest of his life trying to get the main out. He rolled about 20 degrees to his left and put his arms in front of his face...and hit like that. So.... he unknowingly had his cutaway handle pulled...so when he deployed his chute left? And he didn't realize that his chute had left...so he never pulled his reserve? Is that accurate? but..but...but... first off, that's so sad. But secondly, I have questions about this... did he not feel his main leave? Even if he didn't feel it leave or know that it left, isn't there a time when you think, "this isn't working, now what"? Or is that the loss of altitude awareness that you're talking about. Me..I'm beating myself up for trying for the main 3 times... with the 2-try rule...wouldn't he try to get the main out twice and go for his reserve? As for how he actually hit...how do you know that? What I mean is..you said his dad was filming him, but surely his dad pulled HIS chute, right? So...who saw him actually hit? Did he hit close enough to the DZ for people to see him come in? His poor poor dad...that's just aweful. How was he trying to get the main out? I mean...there shoudln't have even been a PC behind him...right? As experienced as he was....he didn't notice his main was completely gone? or at least didn't go for his reserve... (although with my limited experience, I can imagine going for the cutaway, which was already pulled, and wasting time going, "WHERE THE **** IS MY CUTAWAY PUD???") -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #147 January 30, 2004 QuoteSo.... he unknowingly had his cutaway handle pulled...so when he deployed his chute left? And he didn't realize that his chute had left...so he never pulled his reserve? Is that accurate? Yes. QuoteI have questions about this... did he not feel his main leave? You can't tell when it goes....Your main goes so fast. I didn't believe this myself till I saw a video of this happening to another jumper. QuoteEven if he didn't feel it leave or know that it left, isn't there a time when you think, "this isn't working, now what"? Or is that the loss of altitude awareness that you're talking about. Yes. That is the loss of altitude awareness I was talking about. Quotewith the 2-try rule...wouldn't he try to get the main out twice and go for his reserve? Unless he lost track of altitude. QuoteAs for how he actually hit...how do you know that? Witness on the ground. QuoteHis poor poor dad...that's just aweful Oscar is an AMAZING man. He brought the rig back to RWS...When he handed in the rig...He apologized for not being able to get the blood stains out!!! Not only did he bring the rig back from overseas, but he tried to CLEAN HIS SONS BLOOD off of it. And he gave me comfort while I cried like a baby at Glenns funeral. He is a strong man. QuoteHow was he trying to get the main out? I mean...there shoudln't have even been a PC behind him...right? As experienced as he was....he didn't notice his main was completely gone? or at least didn't go for his reserve... He never knew it was gone...And lost track of it all...Think about it, 2 grand is 6 seconds from impact."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #148 January 30, 2004 Quote Quotewith the 2-try rule...wouldn't he try to get the main out twice and go for his reserve? Unless he lost track of altitude. but isn't that the point of the 2-try rule? So that you don't really have to stay altitude aware in an emergency, you just know that if you tried twice then you're done, move along to the next step..? I was told that the reason for the 2-try rule is because there were people fighting mals all the way to the ground...and with a 2-try rule you know to STOP after two tries, regardless of altitude, and move to the next thing.... (which is why, even though I was under canopy at 2K, I am still kicking myself about my reserve ride a few weeks ago...because I tried 3 times. STUPID! Could have had a worse outcome, glad it didn't....) Quote QuoteAs for how he actually hit...how do you know that? Witness on the ground. So he was close enough to where they were going to land and people actually saw him hit? Yeesh. Quote Oscar is an AMAZING man. He brought the rig back to RWS...When he handed in the rig...He apologized for not being able to get the blood stains out!!! Not only did he bring the rig back from overseas, but he tried to CLEAN HIS SONS BLOOD off of it. Ya know...that's...that's just... I don't have the words. that's...ick..and gawd...and all sorts of bad feeling words. I can't even come up with the words. Quote Think about it, 2 grand is 6 seconds from impact. So they were pulling at 2K? jeez....that's 500 below my hard deck. and isn't it 5 seconds every thousand feet...so about 10 seconds from impact? (not that 4 seconds is a lot...but it can be enough sometimes!!) 2K...and I'm twitchy about pulling at 4-4.5K... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #149 January 30, 2004 Quotebut isn't that the point of the 2-try rule? Its a good rule...Or better its a good starting point. I don't try twice and give up...But you should. I have an altitude that is my hard deck...At this altitude I WILL STOP THE SKYDIVE....I don't care how I do it...The skydive must end. Quote(which is why, even though I was under canopy at 2K, I am still kicking myself about my reserve ride a few weeks ago...because I tried 3 times. STUPID! Could have had a worse outcome, glad it didn't....) 1. You did what you were trained to do. 2. You lived. Both of those tell me you did fine....Im not in the habbit of telling people who lived how they could have done better. Could it have been handled "better"? Who cares? You lived, good job. QuoteSo he was close enough to where they were going to land and people actually saw him hit? Yeesh. People have to land somewhere...I have a buddy that had to step back to keep from getting hit once. QuoteSo they were pulling at 2K? jeez....that's 500 below my hard deck. I pull at 2,500. When I had 300-400 jumps and was bullet proof I used to pull at 1,200-1,500...Then I got a tad smarter. Having done all the stupid things I could think of...I would rather the new guys not make the same STUPID mistakes. Quoteisn't it 5 seconds every thousand feet...so about 10 seconds from impact? I have always been told, and told others that its 9 seconds for the first thousand, and 6 seconds every thousand after that. So its 12 seconds, but the last two don't really count unless you have already done something before you get there."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pkasdorf 0 #150 January 30, 2004 QuoteScotty's Vote = NO (not safe) Tamie's Vote = NO (not safe) I dare all of you as instructors or gonna be / wanna be instructors...those of you who want to make a living at this and to be held accountable for others to say "THIS IS A SAFE SPORT"!!! I double dare you! I want to hear how you answer an injured parties family when they ask "you told me it was safe go ahead and jump". Better have a GOOD Lawyer Get real people we are jumping out of airplanes! Before every jump both of us (scotty and myself) understand its NOT a safe activity and we could quite possibly GO-IN. Understanding and Respecting the fact that what we do is NOT safe is what makes us conscientious skydivers. Respect what you doing and dont under estimate it! The verbage and warning labels that are plastered on our gear is just there because its looks COOL too! My (our) opinion for what its worth! Scotty C = 12,000+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Tami C = 900+ Jumps (and still learning) "HINT" Hey, Scotty and Tamie, may be because all this discussion going along between Ron, Elfanie, etc. you missed the point of the poll. The question is not if skydiving is safe or not. The question is if it is one of the safest risky sports or not. Saying that it is one of the safest risky sports is not saying it is safe. May be you think it is not one of the safest risky sports. In that case your NO perfectly applies. But that does not come up from what you wrote above. Nor is there any post in which you can claim that I do not respect what I am doing!!! (search all my posts!) Unfortunately discussion in this poll mostly veered to if it is safe or not. That discussion should belong to other polls and threads. This one is about safety comparing with other sports that put your life in danger. Is it safer than most of them? Is it not? That is the question, nothing more, nothing less! HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
