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diverdriver

Low Time Jump Pilots HEED MY WORDS

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To sum up some post responses together. This should be a lesson for ALL jump pilots not to mess with a holding pattern. When there are T-storms all around and no one can get into a major airport it doesn't matter if the skies are blue over you. DON'T MESS WITH A HOLDING PATTERN.



As a VFR pilot I have only a basic knowledge of holding patterns and where they are located. With only my VFR charts I have no way of knowing where you are holding. As a beginning IFR student, I do know how to find this info, but do you really expect VFR pilots to look up this info? Obviously this is a special case of a jump pilot operating in a fixed area. The DZ should have knowledge of the airspace and make sure that all of their pilots are aware of this information.

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The jump pilot must make him/herself aware of what airspace they are operating in. A 600hr pilot should've known better.

The pilot in question should have contacted ATC per FAR Part 105....that pretty much closes this issue. He may have screwed the pooch....

As a former jump pilot, I too was on a few occasions asked to fly in questionable WX conditions. And, sorry to say, I did... But one day (after I was all grown up) when I was getting the "there's a big hole" story (from the DZO), I walked over to him, threw the plane key to him, and drove home...... never got asked again about flying in screwed WX...

Like Chris stated, a collision coulda happened, and our sport would take a serious ding for it...... FAA ain't your forgiving brother....they would love to make a visit to your DZ...

Buck


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Did your jump pilot recieve traffic advisories prior to you jumping out? Did ATC relay any info on traffic to your pilot? Did your pilot then heed that traffic advisory? What is the radar coverage in your area? These are all questions that need to be asked before you fix too much blame.

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Those holding patterns are not usually published on sectional charts that VFR pilots use. They are often 30-40 miles from the airport being served, and not in continuous use. The guy was wrong for not talking to ATC, but not wrong for flying thru a holding pattern. There is no VFR rule about doing that. Were you in class E airspace?

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If it makes you feel any better, I've had several close calls w/ aircraft.:S

Derek


-----------------------------------------------------------



I have never had the pleasure....These gals and guys kick but. They watch us 100% of the time and make things too easy. Found this on their web site.

http://bathursted.ccnb.nb.ca/vatcan/fir/moncton/
=====================================

The Moncton FIR is located in eastern Canada and it covers the maritime provinces: New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. It also includes some airspace of the North Atlantic in the vicinity of Sable Island and a significant portion of the Gulf of St. Lawrence(including Les Iles de la Madeleine, Quebec). The Montreal FIR borders us to the north, Gander to the east, New York Oceanic Control Area to the south, and Boston ARTCC's airspace is west of us.


The Moncton Area Control Center. September, 2001

What we do:

A very large portion of Moncton's air traffic is experienced in two daily flows of traffic crossing the Atlantic Ocean, on the North Atlantic Track(NAT) system. In the afternoon, some 300 aircraft travel from Europe and beyond to North America, and in the late evening, the traffic crosses back. Moncton Center is also responsible for feeding traffic to, and taking flights from the various airports and military airfields located within the region. These include the major airports of Halifax International, NS,:)
Why Fly Here?

There are many reasons to fly the Maritime provinces. Just look at us on the map. There are so many routes both within the Moncton FIR, and the adjoining FIRs of Gander, Montreal and Boston that are within easy reach of even the slowest airplanes. Whether you want to fly a jet, a turboprop or a piston engine aircraft, we have a route for you to fly. Moncton, NB, to Charlottetown, PEI, is only about 60 NM, while runs like Halifax International, NS, to St. John's, NF, is about 500 NM. So many combinations give you those short flights for time killing, or the longer routes for when you just have to fly for a while. Then, of course, the international routes and longer cross country and oceanic routes are always available, allowing those with the stamina to make those longer stints to fly across North America or the North Atlantic Ocean.

Another important regional trait is the training ground. The traffic in the area isn't anywhere near as congested as Toronto or Vancouver, so it gives the novice pilot a chance to learn a few maneouvers and ATC phraseologies to gain experience. It also gives the "pro" in you a chance to experiment with a new aircraft or the RNAV STARs and other more advanced procedures before you fly into the busier hubs in the US. There aren't many places around North America, and even the world, that give you the challenges of the wide range of weather that we have right here in our own back yard. Halifax International is equipped with a Category II ILS to allow airliners to land in the dense fog:o that often occurs there:(, while Moncton's 97% availability rate makes for an excellent training ground, VFR and IFR alike. The wide range of ATC and airport services gives pilots training in the real world opportunities to learn everything they need to know. A high density terminal control area(Halifax) on one end of the scale, with airports in the north that are not only below radar coverage, but also outside of controlled airspace without even a Flight Service Station on field(St. Leonard and Bathurst, NB). The nasty snowfalls that occur in our "Snow Belt" along the Northumberland Strait between Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island make for challenging winter flying, and the beautiful scenery of the Cape Breton Highlands in the east are always a treat. The popular fishing on the world-renowned Miramichi River and other popular fishing spots bring corporate bigwigs with their high performance jets from all over the US and Canada into northern New Brunswick with our comparatively short runways. Seal-lovers can get their fill on the remote, but wonderful Iles de la Madelaine near the center of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. There really is a lot to see and many reasons to fly here.

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Well, you guys have enlightened me about NOTAMs and jumping. I would have thought a pilot would at least make a call on the local freq or ask ATC. That's what I do when dropping them.

Even after the call I've been mighty close (understatement) to other aircraft.

Helicopter
Commercial Airline
Recreational Flights
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Yes, Skydive San Marcos has a permanent NOTAM (little parachute symbol on all the sectionals). I've heard jumpers talk about how they wouldn't like to jump at a DZ like Deland, with all the air traffic, but what those jumpers forget is that all of that traffic is CONTROLLED. I guess that's a disadvantage of a private air strip in the middle of nowhere--You can have a NOTAM filed and report to ATC like you're supposed to, and another pilot can come along who just isn't paying attention to any of that.

--Douva
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

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Last weekend with the radar down I did ask jumpers to help me look for traffic. Radar lulls you into a false sense of security. You gotta always be looking. Some of the aircraft at work have TCAS and pulse landing lights which is great, but the other aircraft must have a transponder working for the TCAS to work. That stuff also lulls. All it takes is one time.
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

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The jump pilot must make him/herself aware of what airspace they are operating in. A 600hr pilot should've known better.

What I've gathered from the posts is that he was probably in Class E airspace. I would imagine that he knew this fact.

The pilot in question should have contacted ATC per FAR Part 105....that pretty much closes this issue. He may have screwed the pooch....

Again from reading previous posts, he did attempt to contact ATC including using his transponder's Ident. Attempting to establish and actually establishing communications with ATC are two different things. It's also not clear from the postings whether he actually broadcast his intentions over the local CTAF.
He made a decision to release his jumpers after climbing to altitude and attempting to contact ATC. There are probably plenty of pilots who would have done the same thing.


As a former jump pilot, I too was on a few occasions asked to fly in questionable WX conditions. And, sorry to say, I did... But one day (after I was all grown up) when I was getting the "there's a big hole" story (from the DZO), I walked over to him, threw the plane key to him, and drove home...... never got asked again about flying in screwed WX...

Like Chris stated, a collision coulda happened, and our sport would take a serious ding for it...... FAA ain't your forgiving brother....they would love to make a visit to your DZ...

I'm not real sure how imminent the collision was from Chris's post. Chris stated that there was a mile seperation when the plane released its jumpers and then the plane descended in Chris's direction. Again I'm not sure how close he came or if the jump plane pilot had visual contact with Chris, but I don't think that he did anything unusual.

Buck



We all have responsibility to see and avoid, but IFR traffic is under the control of ATC who has the responsibility to keep the aircraft in its charge clear of non-IFR traffic. Had this aircraft not released a jumper, there wouldn't be any potential FAR violations. Since he did release a jumper, he had the requirement to establish communications with ATC, which he did not do successfully.

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because of his approach direction, we couldn't see him from the door.



You need to look under the plane and out the oposite side windows as well.



Early in my flying career I've had traffic reported by ATC and never saw them.It is an acquired skill.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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As a VFR pilot I have only a basic knowledge of holding patterns and where they are located. With only my VFR charts I have no way of knowing where you are holding. As a beginning IFR student, I do know how to find this info, but do you really expect VFR pilots to look up this info? Obviously this is a special case of a jump pilot operating in a fixed area. The DZ should have knowledge of the airspace and make sure that all of their pilots are aware of this information.




Which is my original point. This whole discussion about other people wandering through is silly. It has nothing to do with my post about JUMP PILOTS ignoring FAR 105 and ENDANGERING the lives of me and passengers along with the other aircraft in the pattern.

By FAR he has to have a commercial license and be able to read, write, and understand the english language. Which means he should be able to read the FARs pertaining to flying skydivers.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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Those holding patterns are not usually published on sectional charts that VFR pilots use. They are often 30-40 miles from the airport being served, and not in continuous use. The guy was wrong for not talking to ATC, but not wrong for flying thru a holding pattern. There is no VFR rule about doing that. Were you in class E airspace?




Oh give me a break. You run a DZ. You fly in the same airspace day after day. You're gonna tell me this pilot is never going to be aware of a STANDARD holding pattern directly over his airport? I don't buy it. And then I'm told by these controllers that 5 weeks the SAME pilot made the SAME screwed up flight into the SAME holding pattern and they had the SAME phone call made directly to him because he set off another planes TCAS.

This is not some poor schmuck. He's a hazard and his judgement is totally flawed.

Most insurance companies that insure jump planes require a Commercial/Instrument ticket with 500 hours total time and 25 in type to fly a 182. But then again, who knows if this outfit flys with insurance.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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Parachutes are Fun... in MD



Nope wasn't us, were not anywhere near the Dullas holding pattern.
Next time you might want to do alittle more research before bashing some one elses business.

Lance



Hey Lance!

Before you accuse me of bashing an operation, check out what "wonder" means in relation to a sentance. It was a question, not a statement.

Of course, since all you quoted was the last half of the sentance maybe that's all you cared to read.

When DD asks if a plane that was involved in a crash was part of a (named) parachute operation - is he BASHING their business?

These are all rhetorical questions/statements that don't need replies as they will only deviate from the topic at hand.

Kevin

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If we have a small jump plane or a tandem wipe out the crew station and create a cerritos style air disaster, its going to damage sport jumping in a heartbeat way worse than the hook turn fatality phenomenon that everyone cries is gonna ruin our beloved sport.

This really will give us a black eye in the eyes of the voting general public. And probably effect dropzone walk on business regionally.

If a skydiver ever hits an airliner skydiving in the U.S. will be done.This sport of ours is not a right and can be taken away.Think before you do something stupid.

It will also cut the AOPA's and EAA's desire to assist us in our future issues with other governing bodies.

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Yep, I'll give you that, that the DZ operator should familiarize himself with both VFR and IFR operations in his area, and be aware of where the traffic tends to be. The radio thing still bugs me. Too many jumpships have crappy radios and no transponders. A transponder is required for TCAs (close to most major airports) and above 10,000 feet, but here are still small DZs out in the sticks that that try to get by one a shoestring without one, often sneaking up above 10 grand where it's required. I remember Ted Mayfield at Sheridan, OR dropping a Beech load right past a commuter airliner, a SW-4 at 6000 feet, one day. He had no transponder, not talking to ATC, nothing. He got a visit from the FAA on that one. Don't know if he got fined, but he did start talkin' and squawkin' after that. That outlaw mentality is dying out, but still shows up occasionally.

There is no skydive worth dying for.

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He made a decision to release his jumpers after climbing to altitude and attempting to contact ATC. There are probably plenty of pilots who would have done the same thing.



He made a decision??? After "attempting"..? 105 states you will make contact before jumping. Attempt wasn't in the reg.....

And I would hope he was broadcasting over CTAF, although that's another issue.

As you might surmise, I agree with DiverDriver on this issue.

I appreciate your response.

Buck


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He made a decision to release his jumpers after climbing to altitude and attempting to contact ATC. There are probably plenty of pilots who would have done the same thing.



He made a decision??? After "attempting"..? 105 states you will make contact before jumping. Attempt wasn't in the reg.....

And I would hope he was broadcasting over CTAF, although that's another issue.

As you might surmise, I agree with DiverDriver on this issue.

I appreciate your response.

Buck



Situations aren't always black and white. If I had to pick sides I would side with Chris. If you will read my earlier post in this thread that describes a near miss I had with an American Eagle flight, there are circumstances that aren't entirely black and white. The individual controller involved had taken it upon himself to shutdown our skydiving by not responding to our pilot's attempts to contact him. As a jumper I wasn't aware that ATC contact had not been made until later, but should one individual be able to shutdown an operation?
The load Chris described was already at altitude and he used his best effort under the circumstances to contact ATC. He obviously felt that he had let them know that he was there and intended to release jumpers. ATC did broadcast communications directed at the pilot, so communications were established. His decision to drop the jumpers may not have been by the book, nor was it in the best interest of safety, but he made a decision as PIC. This is what every pilot is charged by the FAA to do.

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ATC did broadcast communications directed at the pilot, so communications were established.



I agree with you that there are always two sides...

However, until you hear the magic words, "radar contact", you are not under the ATC umbrella... Maybe Chris can back me up on that..

Guess we can agree to disagree. But from all the post, I conclude that the pilot did not establish proper communication with the nearest ATC facility per Part 105. That pretty much can close the issue. I've flown more jumpers than I can count, and I always had to have firm contact with the nearest controlling agency "before" a drop.

I can see when the controller gets busy they will typically handle the IFR before even thinking about giving radar advisories to a VFR jump plane. Them are da breaks......

Buck


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I can see when the controller gets busy they will typically handle the IFR before even thinking about giving radar advisories to a VFR jump plane. Them are da breaks......

Buck

A busy controller may discontinue VFR traffic advisories, since that is an additional, "time permitting", service. However, jump planes are required to get advisories prior to jumping. Therefore I feel the controller should consider it a first priority, required service, not at his discretion. Some controllers are lazy, some are just ignorant about skydiving, some even profess to hate skydiving.

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Situations aren't always black and white.



The FAR is very clear;

"
§105.13 Radio equipment and use requirements.
(a) Except when otherwise authorized by air traffic control --
(1) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, in or into controlled airspace unless, during that flight --
(i) The aircraft is equipped with a functioning two-way radio communication system appropriate to the air traffic control facilities being used; and
(ii) Radio communications have been established between the aircraft and the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the affected airspace of the first intended exit altitude at least 5 minutes before the parachute operation begins. The pilot in command must establish radio communications to receive information regarding air traffic activity in the vicinity of the parachute operation.
(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft used for any parachute operation in or into controlled airspace must, during each flight --
(i) Continuously monitor the appropriate frequency of the aircraft's radio communications system from the time radio communications are first established between the aircraft and air traffic control, until the pilot advises air traffic control that the parachute operation has ended for that flight.
(ii) Advise air traffic control when the last parachutist or object leaves the aircraft.
(b) Parachute operations must be aborted if, prior to receipt of a required air traffic control authorization, or during any parachute operation in or into controlled airspace, the required radio communications system is or becomes inoperative."

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The load Chris described was already at altitude and he used his best effort under the circumstances to contact ATC. He obviously felt that he had let them know that he was there and intended to release jumpers. ATC did broadcast communications directed at the pilot, so communications were established. His decision to drop the jumpers may not have been by the book, nor was it in the best interest of safety, but he made a decision as PIC. This is what every pilot is charged by the FAA to do.



Yes, ATC did brodcast comms directed at the jumpship....."asking the jump plane to leave the area", not OK'ing the drop. If the pilot had comms w/ ATC, he would have had that information, therefore comms were NOT established.

Pilots are charged with following the fAR's except in an emergency, and operating the aircraft safely, not just making a decision.

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FAR 105 states that you MUST have two-way radio contact with ATC 5 minutes before dropping jumpers. This plane NEVER had positive two-way radio communication with ATC as NY Center kept transmitting in the blind asking the jump plane to leave the area as he was up in the middle of a holding pattern.



The jump pilot violated FAR's, endagered his passengers and the passengers of Chris's aircraft. I also wonder how close the jumpers and jumpship came to the aircraft holding 1,000 ft below Chris.

Imagine if the tandem had hit either airliner and brought it down. The FAA would likely simply ground all parachute operations and then, budget permitting:S, figure out how to allow skydiving again.

Derek

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