why disconnect RSL?

[AggieDave 6]

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But if you take someone with no CRW training...they will not handle a wrap well....

Another reason why I think EVERYONE should learn even just basic CReW. It will only make them better canopy pilots and it will only help them understand different emergancy situations.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Simple I would either jump without it, or leave it alone...I personally jump without it

Your not listening to what Im asking. Remeber your not talking to me - I have no interest whatsoever in messing with my RSL under canopy.

You are talking to all those other people on this thread who do want to disconnect their RSL after opening, for whatever reason.

What is your advice to them?

If they are going to do it, how/where should they do it to be least at risk?

There's no point repeating to them that you would advise them not to do it at all - they already have that advice from you several times.

[billvon 2,400]

>What kindda hard wind were talking about? 8m/s? More?

I'm talking 35kt winds i.e. really, really strong winds. It's _usually_ possible to collapse a canopy, but under some conditions (i.e. high winds, tandem master, difficult student, large main) it can be easier and safer to just chop the main.

[billvon 2,400]

>that main can leave, we'll get it later, and myself and my student will not be dragged.

Your student will not be dragged even if you leave the RSL connected. It is a convenience, not a safety, issue.

[billvon 2,400]

>So why is it in the sims as a saftey proc?

Because if you land in water and then cut away, the RSL will open the reserve container, and you will then have to deal with both the loss of buoyancy and the reserve PC bridle while in the water.

[rigging65 0]

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Because if you land in water and then cut away, the RSL will open the reserve container, and you will then have to deal with both the loss of buoyancy and the reserve PC bridle while in the water.

But, it should be noted, if you follow water-landing procedures correctly, there shouldn't be a reason to cut the main away.

Of course, since emergency water landings are the exception and not the norm, there is no way to tell what might happen during one.

Keep your head, land the canopy first then get out of and away from your gear.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Ron 7]

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Another reason why I think EVERYONE should learn even just basic CReW. It will only make them better
canopy pilots and it will only help them understand different emergancy situations.

I agree 100%...however there is not way that most of todays jumpers will allow you to make them do that.

If I ran the world....(Insert Evil laughter).

For a "D" It would be:
1,000 jumps.
5 years.
Ability to do atleast Two or Three different styles of skydiving safely. Such as RW, FF, Video, Skysurf, CRW, Bigways, Instructor rating.
You would have to have a cutaway.
You would have had to do some CRW.
Night jumps.
Live water jump.

But I don't run the world...Don't tell my Mom!!!!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Your not listening to what Im asking.

Maybe you are not listening to my answer?

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Remeber your not talking to me - I have no interest whatsoever in messing with my RSL under canopy

Cool and smart, but then why care what others do? Are you their Daddy?

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You are talking to all those other people on this thread who do want to disconnect their RSL after opening, for whatever reason.

What is your advice to them?

To not fucking do it. That IS my advice to them.

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If they are going to do it, how/where should they do it to be least at risk?

I would tell them again that its stupid to have one then disconnect it...But if they insist on doing it....I would make fun of them needing a device to make sure the will pull a reserve, then I would have them do it right after they open and clear their airspace.

However, lets say they do that then when they go to release their brakes they can only get one side to release...What are they gonna do reconnect it?

So they can't do it right after opening right? They have to make sure they are not going to cut away first right? That means they have to make sure that they collapse the slider, release both brakes...then they can disconnect it right?

What if the they have problems getting the toggles again, and they are going by the hard deck? Well they can then land with risers, or cutaway...Are they going to reconnect the RSL before they cutaway?

Now lets say that they do what you suggest and disconnect it at 40 feet.

Are they going to look at it when they disconnect it? I try not to pull anything without looking at it first...I know folks that pulled a chest strap till impact thinking it was a reserve. (But of course the AAD will save them for the next jump right?)

Do you really want to take a hand out of a toggle while you are low, and risk loosing it. And eliminate one of you ways to turn incase someone is on a collision course? What happens if you take your hand out of the toggle and can't get the toggle back?

I don't think its a good idea period.

If you feel the need to cut away when you land you can always release it right after you land and right when you start to get drug...

Or better yet don't jump in fucking insane winds that might drag you!

If you are doing Tandems make sure that you have catchers in high winds.

Or in the worst case cut the damn thing away and let the reserve fire....It will not open in 99% of the cases. At most this is just a pain in the neck, not a saftey concern.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

>But, it should be noted, if you follow water-landing procedures
>correctly, there shouldn't be a reason to cut the main away.

Well, unless you are far from shore, and want to keep the reserve as temporary flotation. Or unless winds are high and you get dragged over the water (a problem they used to have with rounds.)

[rigging65 0]

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>But, it should be noted, if you follow water-landing procedures
>correctly, there shouldn't be a reason to cut the main away.

Well, unless you are far from shore, and want to keep the reserve as temporary flotation. Or unless winds are high and you get dragged over the water (a problem they used to have with rounds.)

Ok, granted, but aside from that slim-to-none chance (for most jumpers)....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Zoter 0]

Sorry to butt in with what might be a silly question......but if you have two canopies out...why do you need to worry about the RSL if cutting away your main?......the reserve is already out and inflated...?

[Kris 0]

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Sorry to butt in with what might be a silly question......but if you have two canopies out...why do you need to worry about the RSL if cutting away your main?......the reserve is already out and inflated...?

The only silly questions are the ones you don't ask.

The reason is because there is a small chance that it is possible for the trailing RSL to snag on the reserve when the main canopy departs. It has happened to people before.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[bch7773 0]

I still don't see why using you say disconnecting your RSL is stupid. Its pretty simple... if you are in high winds, and you have already opened your canopy, you've collapsed the slider, unstowed brakes, got into the landing pattern, and made sure you are gonna collide with someone, I think its safe to disconnect the RSL.
Lets say someone disconnects it at 1000 feet. Below that, you aren't supposed to cutaway (according to SIM I believe), so having the RSL still connected is moot. And how long does it really take to disconnect it? 2 maybe 3 seconds? Not really a safety issue.

meanwhile, disconnecting it allows you to cutaway your canopy if you are getting drug, without having to get a reserve repack. And yes, a repack is only 40-odd dollars, but it still means you can't jump for a few days (for most people). Not to mention most skydivers don't have very much money, and something tells me they would be hesitant to cutaway while being drug, if they realized they would have to get a repack.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Nullified 0]

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I still don't see why using you say disconnecting your RSL is stupid. Its pretty simple... if you are in high winds, and you have already opened your canopy, you've collapsed the slider, unstowed brakes, got into the landing pattern, and made sure you are gonna collide with someone, I think its safe to disconnect the RSL.
Lets say someone disconnects it at 1000 feet. Below that, you aren't supposed to cutaway (according to SIM I believe), so having the RSL still connected is moot. And how long does it really take to disconnect it? 2 maybe 3 seconds? Not really a safety issue.

meanwhile, disconnecting it allows you to cutaway your canopy if you are getting drug, without having to get a reserve repack. And yes, a repack is only 40-odd dollars, but it still means you can't jump for a few days (for most people). Not to mention most skydivers don't have very much money, and something tells me they would be hesitant to cutaway while being drug, if they realized they would have to get a repack.

Personally, I'm afraid of RSLs.

I'm trying to come up with some intelligent explanation of why not to disconnect an RSL, but this is all I can come up with;

Why would you?? The price of a repack?
If you've made the choice to jump with one, it's obviously for safety reasons. And now, you're weighing your safety against a $40 - $60 repack?

Shit, if it's that windy, wait until tomorrow.

Stay safe.

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Ron 7]

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I still don't see why using you say disconnecting your RSL is stupid.

Well, we will try this one more time.

If you want one, then you want the ability for it to open your reserve for you correct?

Why disconnect it? Just for the sake of saving a 40.00 repack incase the winds are to high?

Well, how about not jumping when the winds are to high in the first place?

I am sorry that a reserve repack is 40 bucks, and that some people can't afford it. But this is an expensive sport. I can't see the logic of disconnecting a LIFE SAVING DEVICE (That some MUST have). For fear of having to pay 40 bucks.

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got into the landing pattern,,

How are you going to control the canopy while you take a hand out of a toggle and disconnect the RSL? I don't want you in the landing pattern and not be able to control your canopy...Its not safe.

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and made sure you are gonna collide with someone

How are you going to know you are not going to collide with someone? A guy with 10,000 jumps just died in a collision....I bet he thought he was not going to collide with anyone..In fact I bet 100% of the people that have collided didn't plan it and thought that they were not going to....What makes you so sure you will not?

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I think its safe to disconnect the RSL

And I don't. I don't want you to not look where you are going, and take your hand out of your toggles to disconnect it. You will be blind, and worse unable to avoid others.

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Lets say someone disconnects it at 1000 feet. Below that, you aren't supposed to cutaway (according to SIM I believe), so having the RSL still connected is moot.

Haveing the RSL connected is NOT moot...I have cutaway below 1,000 feet twice...What was I gonna do ride the malfunction in?

What altitude do you think most collisions occur anyway?....Hint, its below 1,000 feet. and a LOW cutaway is one of the few things an RSL is really good at.

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And how long does it really take to disconnect it? 2 maybe 3 seconds? Not really a safety issue.

And while you are playing with it to disconnect it...Which you DON'T HAVE TO DO.....You are BLIND, and UNABLE to avoid. Which is dangerous, and it is a saftey issue. It makes you dangerous to be around.

And what happens if you can't get your toggle back into your hand? It happens.

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disconnecting it allows you to cutaway your canopy if you are getting drug, without having to get a reserve repack.

which is not a SAFTEY issue...It is a matter of convenience. Keeping it connected is SAFTEY which will keep you ALIVE.

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And yes, a repack is only 40-odd dollars, but it still means you can't jump for a few days (for most people).

There is more to life than skydiving. If you can't jump for afew days life will go on...If you collide with someone and die, it does not.

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Not to mention most skydivers don't have very much money, and something tells me they would be hesitant to cutaway while being drug, if they realized they would have to get a repack.

Oh well, again a SAFTEY issue VS. a convenience. Guess which one one I give a shit about?

If you are messing around in the pattern and can't avoid a collision, you could kill me as well.

(BTW, I have never had to cut away a sport rig due to high winds in 10 years and 3,000 jumps)

you have 100 jumps...do the things that will keep you safe, and you will live to have more.

Do the things to make skydiving convenient, and you may not.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skyclownUK 0]

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If anyone has any worries about the consequenses of having a connected RSL after landing they may safely disconnect it after passing through their hard deck altitude.

Sorry - this doesn`t make sense. I think that one of the main benefits of an RSL is in the case of a low altitude canopy collision. The few seconds that the RSL shaves off the time required to deploy your reserve may very well save your life.

I agree that in an ideal world you would not cut away below your "hard deck", remember that in times of extreme stress even very experienced skydivers have cut away low for this very reason. A cut away is a conditioned response and in the heat of the moment, you are left with little option, and may act automatically. Whether this is the right or wrong decision is another matter, but by disconnecting the RSL, you are denying yourself one of the key advantages it brings.

Not to mention the obvious risk associated with people messing around unhooking their RSL when they should be looking for other canopy traffic. With larger aircraft, and consequently more and more people on increasingly fast canopies landing in small "cool" areas, we need to encourage people to be more heads up, not give them extra things to worry about.

If you have an RSL and land in high winds next to a busy road and need to chop your main, do, and get your reserve repacked.

Don`t trade off safety for convenience.

Stay safe

Ollie

[billvon 2,400]

>if you are in high winds, and you have already opened your canopy,
> you've collapsed the slider, unstowed brakes, got into the landing
> pattern, and made sure you are gonna collide with someone, I think
> its safe to disconnect the RSL.

I sure hope that's a typo - you meant make sure you're NOT going to collide with someone, right?

The problem is that an RSL isn't for normal conditions. Heck, if you have a normal cutaway and reserve pull, you don't _need_ an RSL. The times you do need an RSL are:

-a spinning cutaway that tweaks your harness so you can't find your reserve handle

-a low cutaway due to loss of altitude awareness

-a low collision resulting in destruction of your canopy

-a rip in a seam that opens up completely at 800 feet

And half a dozen other things you (and I) probably haven't thought about yet. If you disconnect your RSL after your main is open, you lose 3/4 of its benefit, based on the list above. (and the times you are low are the times you REALLY need it.)

And I don't think anyone can make sure they won't collide with anyone. Do you think Roger Nelson set up his landing thinking "Hmm, I think I'll come too close to someone on this particular approach"? Collisions come out of nowhere; it's always the guy you don't see who gets you.

>Not to mention most skydivers don't have very much money, and
> something tells me they would be hesitant to cutaway while being
> drug, if they realized they would have to get a repack.

That's fine. Getting dragged is a lot less fatal than impacting with no reserve out. And if they do start getting dragged towards the pen of angry communist pit bulls, or are near the edge of the local bottomless chasm? They can decide if they really want to save that $40 or not.

[skyclownUK 0]

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Lets say someone disconnects it at 1000 feet. Below that, you aren't supposed to cutaway (according to SIM I believe), so having the RSL still connected is moot.

OK - Imagine the scenario. You dilligently disconnect your RSL at 1000 feet (when you should be flying your canopy - but thats another question!). You then have a canopy collision at 999 feet. You now no longer have the benefit of the RSL and your reserve will take that bit longer to deploy. That time might well make the difference, my friend.

The SIM may very well state that you should not cut away below 1000 feet, but what about when that canopy you never saw collides with you 999 ft? Or 998 ft? I know what I`d do. Fact is, this is a grey line, and when the adrenaline is flowing, you may act first, and think later. Each situation is different, and what the "correct" course of action will vary, but please, if you have an RSL, get the benefit from it, and don`t disconnect it.

The only justification you state for disconnecting the RSL is one of convenience and saving $40.

Is this really a valid reason?

[jsaxton 0]

When you are getting dragged on your back it's not so hard to decide to cutaway!

[Ron 7]

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or are near the edge of the local bottomless chasm

Bill, could you tell me where one of these is? It would make 4 way training much cheaper.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumpgod 0]

the answer isn't an easy one and pertains to the individual.

i only have disconnected mine for 2 reasons:

1) doing some stupid stunt like a Mr. Bill dive

2) or doing CRW

when would i disconnect it:

1) camera flying

2) with 2 canopies out and getting ready to chop the main if i had enough time to disconnect the RSL 1st

3) with plenty of altitude (not likely) during a spinning malfunction. some jumpers have experienced malfunctioning reserves (risors caught under arms et. al.) due to spinning mains and not being stable on reserve deployment

my take:

1) i'll always use it -- a) saves time b) what if my left arm is trapped

2) it's designed to save your life and at least, increase your chances in an emergency

mine's staying connected.

[fudd 0]

Seems like I've learned another procedure for landing in water.

1. When you know you will land in water. Disconnect the RSL.
2. The moment your feet touches the water, cut away.
3. Get out of the harness and wait for the boat to pick you up. If no boat, swim for shore. Leave your equipment behind.

Waiting for the feet to touch the water ensures you don't cutaway to high, and decreases the possibillity of getting your main over you and entangling with it in the water.
If I land in water, I want my main to land away from me, not over me. It can be difficult to get out of the harness if the main is still attached. Getting entangled with the main in water can result in drowning.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[USPA 0]

On a windy day, we tried this at our dropzone.. A student ripcord would deploy in strong wind. Though I must add, there is a reason why we weren't jumping, but fooling around in this wind...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[Ron 7]

Undo the chest strap before you gt to the water, and loosen the leg straps.

Don't cutaway just swim up stream, or up wind under water for a few feet.

Also ditch weight vests, helmets shoes...ect.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rigging65 0]

Cutting away is bad juju when it comes to water landings. You're opening up a whole can of worms when you chop.

First off, if you take off your chest strap, flare, then loosen up your leg straps after you land you can simply swim out of your harness. If you cutaway, you end up going deeper into the water, which means you have to come back up...potentially through the canopy...dragging all the extra weight of your wet gear with you.

Additionally, cutting away at a given height is not something that you regularly practice...flaring at a proper height is. Screwing up the cutaway can result in you plummeting into water of (potentially) unknown depth, with unknown hidden obstacles.

Stay near the surface and swim...and, probably the best thing you can do, get your shoes off AFTER you're in the water. It makes a world of difference when swimming, but you want them on to protect your feet as you enter the water.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."