A tale of two different drop zones

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I made identical jumps at two different drop zones this weekend and observed two radically different experiences. I will not name names, but for those of you out there who know me and know where I’ve jumped, you’ll know where I’m talking about and you may even be able to pick up on who I am talking about. Also, my negative experience at this drop zone is really isolated to only a few select individuals and in no way fully reflects the majority of the people who jump there.

Anyway …

On Saturday morning I show up at drop zone “A” to make a hop n’ pop before I had to leave for most of the day to go play in a volleyball tournament. I told several people that I was only there for one jump, so hopefully they knew why I didn’t hang around. Anyway I’m on Load One, I am the only person doing this hop n’ pop and the drop zone is using a visiting pilot (associated with the aircraft being used) and I’m guessing that this visiting pilot wasn’t all that familiar with the DZ. He turns the green light on way too early and people in the airplane start telling me to jump. There is a camera guy for an experienced 4-way team (this camera guy is a good guy) and he’s the first one to tell me to jump and I say “No ####ing way” and he checks the spot and agrees with me. Well one of the senior tandem masters is in the back of the aircraft and this dick has a history of getting on people’s backs for not jumping when the light comes on (despite the fact the DZO told people on safety day the go arounds are not an issue at the DZ). So he starts yelling out to me that I need to jump because the green light is on. Well I ignored him and waited the 15 or so seconds before I jumped. Well on the ground this senior tandem master guy starts giving me shit for not jumping when the green light is turned on and we start getting into an argument. This guy has a history of being a dick to many people at this DZ and he’s telling me that I need to jump when the light turns on, no matter what. I am wasting fuel and slowing down operations (tandem operations) at the DZ. Well I’m sorry Mr senior tandem master dick (I hope he sees this, but I doubt he will), I’m on a hop n’ pop I’m not ####ing up anyone else’s spot on the airplane and what would people say if I blindly jumped without checking the spot and got into some sort of incident because of it. The only one I was inconveniencing was this senior tandem master dick because I was delaying him from getting to altitude (by 15 seconds) so that he can process his tandems and get the hell out of there (this dick always leaves the DZ once the tandems are processed and is never seen making fun jumps).

On Sunday morning I show up at drop zone “B” (actually I showed up there Saturday night, partied with the locals and slept at the DZ). Anyway once again I’m on Load One and I’m the only one doing a hop n’ pop. The same situation occurs where the green light comes on and people in the airplane start telling me to jump. I gesture to another jumper near the door that I’m not going yet as the spot isn’t good and there are no further questions asked. I jump and believe it or not there are some interesting strong winds between 2k and 4k and I actually have to spend a good part of my canopy ride (despite the good spot) to not get pushed away from the DZ by these strong uppers instead of working on some skills that I’d rather be working on. Once I land, the DZO of drop zone “B” comes up to me to talk to me. Was he about to give me shit for delaying in the door? No he came up to me because he noticed that I was fighting these uppers and he wanted to know if what he saw was the same thing that I experienced so that jump run can be adjusted (which it was for that load that went up to altitude as well as the loads for the rest of the day).

So what kind of jumper does your DZ want you to be? I brain dead jumper that goes on the green light no matter what the spot is or an informed jumper who knows of the dynamic conditions we jump in. It’s one thing to be at full altitude and delaying your exit so that your first group gets a great spot above the peas. But this was not the case on a hop n’ pop and it just goes to show that there are some dicks out there who don’t give a shit about the less than lucrative yet still steady fun jumper customers. Drop zone “A” does have some good people there, but my experience Saturday morning with this dick has totally soured an already stressed situation with this DZ. Jumping at this drop zone is just not going to be fun and yes it is time to spend more time at drop zone “B”. Does that mean I’m done with drop zone “A”? Hopefully the answer is no, but time will tell.

I realize that this post is more of a rant than anything, but what’s a fun jumper to do when they are being treated as a 2nd class citizen by senior tandem masters who doesn’t give a shit about anyone but their precious lucrative cargo. Note: save me the “tandems are the business” speech as I know this. And I am very happy to report that drop zone “B” has found a way to bring in more tandem business this summer from last summer. I have no issues with tandems, but I have issues with dicks who think they are all that just because they’ve been flying cargo all these years and don’t give a shit about fun jumpers. I can’t wait for the next time this dick tells people to hurry up to get in the trailer (once he sits down) as I’ll be willing to tell him to shut the #### up and I don’t care if the DZO at drop zone “A” (who’s not the dick I speak of) tells me I’m not welcome at his drop zone any more.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[BETO74 0]

Something like that happened to me a couple months ago but it was a full altitude and I was videoing a 4 way team, the spot was not right due to clouds and the video man of a tandem was giving me crap about waiting to get to a hole, I have no shame in telling him goa F#$% himself, I'm responsable for my team and the right spot since we were the first ones, The cool part was two master tandems notice and complained to the DZO about that camera man, without me saying a word about the incident on the ground, never happened to me doing hop and pops, or I haven't notice since I'm spotting minding my own bussiness

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[JohnRich 4]

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He turns the green light on way too early and people in the airplane start telling me to jump.

Don't be a lemming. The best response to this is to just continue looking out the door to indicate that you are watching the spot and know what is going on, and calmly hold up a hand, palm out, to let them know that you need to wait a few more seconds.

Someone who can't see out the door, doesn't have any business telling the person who can, when to exit.

If they don't like that, screw 'em. Especially since you were the only one exiting on that pass.

Be aware, however, that when you have a whole line-up of people behind you, the first group sometimes needs to intentionally exit short of the best spot, in order to keep the last people in the line-up from being too long. It's a small sacrifice that is made in order to get everyone a reasonable spot that will get them home, without anyone being outside the acceptable limits. Any group that intentionally screws the people in the back of the plane consistently, in favor of themselves, deserves scorn.

[OnYourBack 0]

Its never pleasant when someone jumps in your face (especially when you had done the right thing). I'm curious though about when you say:

"this dick always leaves the DZ once the tandems are processed and is never seen making fun jumps"

Is that a bad thing?

[jlmiracle 7]

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"this dick always leaves the DZ once the tandems are processed and is never seen making fun jumps"

Is that a bad thing?

I've seen a TM like this and after a few years of only doing Tandems he couldn't get stable without a drogue, the last time he jumped (by himself) he flipped through his risers and got tangled up, we did cutaway, blew a panel out of his round reserve, luckily he snagged a tree on this plummet towards the earth and his only injury was a stubbed toe.

Also, it would be nice to see TM's make a few fun jumps, give back a little bit that they made to the dz and just stay current as sport jumper.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The best response to this is to just continue looking out the door to indicate that you are watching the spot, and calmly hold up a hand, palm out, to let them know that you need to wait a few more seconds.

This is pretty much what I was doing, my head was outside the door almost the entire time. It should have been obvious to this dick what I was doing.

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Be aware, however, that when you have a whole line-up of people behind you, the first group sometimes needs to intentionally exit short of the best spot, in order to keep the last people in the line-up from being too long. It's a small sacrifice that is made in order to get everyone a reasonable spot that will get them home, without anyone being outside the acceptable limits. Any group that intentionally screws the people in the back of the plane consistently, in favor of themselves, deserves scorn.

No argument here. One thing to keep in mind though is that during Safety Day, the DZO stood up in front of everyone who was there during a special presentation and told the entire DZ that go arounds were not a big deal and that the DZ wasn't worried about the added fuel costs in the effort to promote safety and for that I applaud the DZO (so my rant shouldn't be directed at the DZ itself). But this person in question always ends up bitching on the trailer when he's involved in a go-around and is often seen telling people to hurry up once he gets on the trailer and for some reason he is never challenged.

#### him I say. It's too bad that the next 3-4 weekends are already booked and that I'll be out of town for most of that time as I'm ready and willing to stand up to him (even if it means getting banned from the DZ).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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"this dick always leaves the DZ once the tandems are processed and is never seen making fun jumps"

Is that a bad thing?

There are many people: tandem masters, videographers and AFF instructors who are not seen at this DZ doing fun jumps. But most of these people are reaonsably friendly, they are approachable and willing to talk to you. But this individual does not talk to fun jumpers and does not talk to students. He's only there to haul the cargo and to give shit to people not following his rules. I know this is a rant. But the dude really pissed me off and made my experience at this DZ more strained than what it's already been. Yes drop zone "B" will see me more once I'm done with my commitments in the next 3-4 weekends.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[OnYourBack 0]

Sorry to hijack the thread.

1. If a TI needs the drogue to be stable he shouldn't be skydiving. I would bet he is an exception to the majority.

2. As a TI I feel I give a lot to the DZ. The labor I exert for the DZ and the passion for skydiving I share with my students derives them a lot more profit than the 15-20 bucks a sport jump does.

3. I'm a lot more current in my awareness and level of safety and ability to land safe in more conditions when I'm on every other load than I ever was a "sport jumper" making a few jumps a day.

4. Tandem jumps and work are "fun" to me.

[OnYourBack 0]

"He's only there to haul the cargo and to give shit to people not following his rules."

That is a shame.

[Reginald 0]

Hmm, sorry to hear about your issue.

There are 2 issues here.

1. Spotting - screw anyone that pressures you to get out of the plane until the spot is acceptable.

2. Uncool DZ's. In my limited experience, I've been to 7 DZ's. 6 have been great and one so uncool all around that I will never go back and recommend friends don't go there. The 1 problem DZ bothered me more because my experiences at all of the others have been so good. Generally skydivers are caring friendly people that are happy to help others and are generally highly inclusive (as long as you’re dumb enough to jump out of an airplane). The occasional DZ with a bad vibe happens but it is the exception. Take your money elsewhere.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[jlmiracle 7]

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1. If a TI needs the drogue to be stable he shouldn't be skydiving. I would bet he is an exception to the majority.

He doesn't jump anymore. This incident happened some years ago (4-5). He is the only TM I have never seen make a fun jump except for this incident. I hope was the 1 in a million kind of TM.

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2. As a TI I feel I give a lot to the DZ. The labor I exert for the DZ and the passion for skydiving I share with my students derives them a lot more profit than the 15-20 bucks a sport jump does.

Don't you get paid as a TM? How far is the next place you could be employed at as a TM? Does your DZ have a short supply of TM's?

I guess I'm just grateful to have super nice place to jump at that is less than 1 hour from my house. I get paid to do AFF, which in turns pays for my fun/coach jumps (usually). I would have to travel over 4 hours to find remotely comparable facilities and I haven't see any dz pay as much as mine does.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[flyangel2 2]

Flyangel jumping up and down, waving hands in the air.

Oh, oh, oh......pick me. I know the DZs that you speak of.

Steve, don't worry about being ask not to come back to DZ A. I haven't been out there in forever, and my skydiving is still going strong. In fact, I've almost logged 200 jumps this year. And they were quality jumps.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[livendive 8]

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Flyangel jumping up and down, waving hands in the air.

Oh, oh, oh......pick me. I know the DZs that you speak of.

I've only been skydiving in his home state a few times. I'm quite certain I know one of the DZ's he's referring to and I could make a pretty good guess as to the other one.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[fatflying 0]

"Mr. senior tandem master dick" I love it, Buddy you just made my day. At my aff training I was tought if you don't like the spot don't go. "Mr. senior tandem master dick" hahahahahahahah THANK YOU.
FATONES

[darkwing 4]

There are dicks all over the world, and some of them even skydive. One of the hard things I try to get across to novices is that they need to learn to make decisions independent of some dick in the other end of the airplane yelling at them.

Sometime even otherwise cool DZs have a dickhead who jumps there. I don't let an isolated dickhead ruin the vibe.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Mad47 0]

Perhaps he worries a lot because his canopy piloting skills are just not good enough to get back to DZ from a long spot

My 4-way team frequently exits first (at full altitude) and very often there are a couple of tandems in the plane. We never get yelled at by tandem instructors, and sometimes we take our time setting up the exit.

Not going on green light before you check the spot is a sign of maturity

[flyangel2 2]

Picture this if you well. While Mr. Senior Dickhead is yelling at Steve to get out, he's got a paying customer sitting next to him. What kind of impression does that leave with the Tandem passenger? Not very good customer service, that's for sure.

Steve, my suggestion to you is to go the the person in charge and let him know what happened. Maybe, just maybe, someone will talk to Mr. Senior Dickhead and explain that yelling and scream in front of customers isn't good. If the DZ manager wanted to make his point to Mr. Senior Dickhead, he would cut back on the number of Tandems Dickhead gets to do the next weekend.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Perhaps he worries a lot because his canopy piloting skills are just not good enough to get back to DZ from a long spot

Perhaps you should understand why I am doing a hop n' pop in the first place before you make unnecessary replies such as this. I do hop n' pops for two reasons:

1) I have swooping goals and it is much safer for myself as well as my fellow jumpers to be doing my 270s when I have no other canopies in the air to be concerned with.

2) Because I have swooping goals, there is a specific set of skills which I am working on. I would much rather get 1 or 2 practice 270s in where I work on my accuracy and recovery arc recognition (and maybe a little rear riser work) before it's time to get down to business. If I have to fight a bad spot, then I am missing out on those practice approaches and am missing out on some vital training time. Yes high altitude hop n' pops are also good times to enhance ones skill set. But I also use normal hop n' pops to help work myself towards these goals.

While I am not about to claim that I know it all, as I don't. I know how to get back from a bad spot. I have taken formal canopy control training in the past and I will continue to seek training from qualified instructors. Plus there has actually has been certain jumps (like a night jump not long ago where I was the only jumper to get back due to some nasty uppers which caught everyone by surprise).

Anyway, I am a paying customer with specific training goals in mind. Why should I sacrifice my training goals just to exit an aircraft early only to satisfy some senior tandem master dick head who feels I should be following his rules.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,400]

>So he starts yelling out to me that I need to jump because the green light is on.

What I have found works in situations like this is to take my helmet off and climb back to him to hear what the emergency is he's yelling about. When he says "Just go, dammit!" walk back to the door, put your helmet on, check your handles and go - thus giving you the 15 seconds you need, and allowing him to express himself in the meantime.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What I have found works in situations like this is to take my helmet off and climb back to him to hear what the emergency is he's yelling about. When he says "Just go, dammit!" walk back to the door, put your helmet on, check your handles and go - thus giving you the 15 seconds you need, and allowing him to express himself in the meantime.

That's a good one.

For the record, I pretty much blocked out whatever else was said in the air by virtually everyone on the load and my frustrations with this individual exists more from his history of bitching to people about leaving on green light (regardless of the spot), his history of bitching to people once he sits down on the trailer and his history of not talking to fun jumpers and students. So when he bitched to me on the ground about not leaving on the green light, I just decided to say enough was enough telling him that the spot sucked, that I too was a paying customer and as the only hop n' pop on the load I wasn't going to exit until the spot was right.

Mary is right. I should talk to the acting DZ manager and S&TA. I do respect this individual and maybe something can be said to this other individual in such a manner so as not to insult him, but at the same time tell him that his views of jump run, the green light and hurrying up once on the trailer don't necessarily co-exist with other people's views.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Reginald 0]

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Perhaps you should understand why I am doing a hop n' pop in the first place before you make unnecessary replies such as this.

Um, I think you missed his point. He was referring to the TM that was yelling at you.

Blue Ones,
Ron

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Mad47 0]

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Perhaps you should understand why I am doing a hop n' pop in the first place before you make unnecessary replies such as this.

Um, I think you missed his point. He was referring to the TM that was yelling at you.

Thanks, I was about to post the same message
There is no need to be so aggressive.

[ManBird 0]

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...to go play in a volleyball tournament...

Damn it! I knew I was supposed to make fun of you for something, and that was it. I was going to yell stuff at you like, "Hey, why don't you go handheld and spike your pilot chute?!" or call a foul when you climb over the rail. Maybe even throw a volleyball at you while you landed. You have to remind me of these things. Next time, man. Next time.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[ManBird 0]

Yeah, it's best to get out earlier to save gas/money, but you're own safety comes before anyone's money. With your situation, I think our DZ is very forgiving on the first load. Once that's out of the way, you can, in fact, have someone rightfully telling you to get out when the spot looks bad. It's not that it's a bad spot, it's that there's a honking headwind. For the most part, green lights are spot on and go arounds are OK.

What's funny is that I have the OPPOSITE thing happen at my DZ. For just a couple hop and poppers out of the Otter, we usually do climbing passes. It's an effective and economical way to dump us out. Since there's no cut, my philosophy is to go when the spot is right (or leave early and track to my spot). This means that I have every reason to go, but the light isn't green yet. The pilots don't give a crap -- there's no cut -- and someone is telling them when we're all out. The sooner we're out, the better. Heck, I'm just trying to save the load some time and money!

It's not actually an issue or a problem, but fellow fun jumpers (not staff) tend to poke fun at my "premature exits." Premature my ass! DO IT! What?

Steve, you should continue jumping at both DZs "B" and "A", just be sure to also incude DZs "S" and "E".

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[popsjumper 2]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience....what was said before about dicks all over the world is sad bu true....

As for Mr. Dick. ...SCREW YOU. I'm more concerned about jumper safely than I am about your ignorance of where the hell the plane is with respect to the landing zone.

Ask how he would feel if some poor lemming DID jump and wound up in a tree or dead because of his blatant disregard for skydiving safety.

One-finger slaute to all of the jerks who do that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239