Pull Altitude, Snivel and Traffic

[StearmanR985 0]

I am hoping that some other skydivers may benifit from this..

I had a bit of a close call yesterday on my first jump of the day. By the time I was under full canopy I was about 30 feet away from another canopy. I took some time to reflect upon how this happened. Intitially the other skydiver and I had plenty of seperation as I watched him open (he was out first) and once he was under full canopy I pitched. I want to clear the other skydiver, he did nothing wrong and in fact steered away from rather quickly. The fault was my own.

Two things that I will be adjusting from here on out:

1. I need to consider pitching at a higher altitude. My canopy typically opens very softly, sometimes too softly. This was the case yesterday, I had a loooooong snivel. By the time I was under full canopy I was at 2k. The way I see it, the other skydiver was simply cruising along enjoying his canopy ride then bam, there I appear right next to him.

2. I need to get my head on a swivel DURING opening. After this happened, I realized that I am looking up at my canopy the entire time until it is all the way open. I need to glance around a bit that way I can get prepared to turn immediatley after inflation if needed.

Any CONSTRUCTIVE advice would be greatly appreciated. My number one goal is to be a safe skydiver. I am still new and learning but I was very with myself for allowing this to happen.

[skymiles 3]

This is precisely why you should not be above or below another jumper at pull time because you can not rely on vertical separation. Horizontal separation is only way to avoid traffic on opening.

Phil

[skymedic 0]

What was he doing "cruising along" towards YOUR airspace during your opening...seems to me he should of seen and heard your opening...and avoided that area. also kinda sounds like he was flying up or down the line of flite...is that a possibility?

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[AndyMan 7]

1. I don't think adjusting your opening altitude is necesarily a good solution. You said you were in the saddle by 2000 feet, and your profile says you have 50 jumps. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable altitude to be in the saddle at 50 jumps.

2. Keeping your head on a swivel is certainly a good idea.

But here's my 3. Proper exit separation might have helped avoid this situation. All jumpers on the plane need to understand what a good separation is, and stick to that plan.

Also, the jumper you opened close to may have been flying up the jumprun. If this is the case, jumpers need to be reminded that this isn't smart, and puts themselves and others in danger.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,463]

>seems to me he should of seen and heard your opening...

You can't see a canopy opening above you.

>also kinda sounds like he was flying up or down the line of flite..

While it's a good idea to not fly down line of flight, on anything larger than a solo there's a good chance people _will_ be flying down line of flight. The safe thing to do on any RW is to track away from the center, open your canopy, and continue flying away from the center for a few seconds to ensure sufficient separation (in case someone else has an off-header.)

[PhreeZone 15]

It concerns me that you were able to see him in freefall and watch his opening. Thats usually a sign of a lack of seperation since a jumper that exits before you should be about 1000 away and 500+ feet lower then you. What type of exit delay did you give?

Its hard to fly along the line of flight enough to put your self under the group after you if they give proper exit seperation and they do not slide down the line of flight.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[The111 1]

Quote

You said you were in the saddle by 2000 feet, and your profile says you have 50 jumps. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable altitude to be in the saddle at 50 jumps.

Guess I'm above the average then. I have almost 200 jumps and like to be in the saddle by 2.5k, which equates to a 3.5k pull with my sniiiiiivel.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[AndyMan 7]

It may not be desirable, but it certainly isn't unreasonable.

Adjusting 500 feet is only 2.5 seconds of freefall, or maybe packing a slammer instead of a snivel - dificult to pinpoint since we don't know what kind of opening we're about to have. Depending on an additional 500 feet of vertical to avoid this situation will be prone to failure. Ensuring proper horizontal separation will serve you much better, hence my comments about proper exit timing.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Nutz 0]

I'm with you man, 238 here and I still like to open at 4000'. However, it is scary to me that I am getting comfortable opening at 3000', ie on an rw jump where the other guys don't want to break until 4000'. One time I jumped out of the cessna behind some freefliers, gave them 15 seconds, and was still able to see them in freefall and wind up on top of them at opening time. (And you people wonder why we want freefliers to exit last. )

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[StearmanR985 0]

Quote

This is precisely why you should not be above or below another jumper at pull time because you can not rely on vertical separation. Horizontal separation is only way to avoid traffic on opening.

Phil

Hey Phil,

Well, initially we did have decent horizontal separation. I did watch him pitch then get under full canopy. Two reasons for this, I wanted to make sure I was not on top of them as I was trying to sit fly(I suck BTW) so I was worried I may have inadvertently tracked a bit as I was flipping about. And the second reason, it is fun to watch others deploy. I just know that we had horizontal separation but when I was under full canopy we did not.

[StearmanR985 0]

Quote

It concerns me that you were able to see him in freefall and watch his opening. Thats usually a sign of a lack of seperation since a jumper that exits before you should be about 1000 away and 500+ feet lower then you. What type of exit delay did you give?

Its hard to fly along the line of flight enough to put your self under the group after you if they give proper exit seperation and they do not slide down the line of flight.

I was jumping at Skydance. They seem to be very safety oriented are very cautious when it comes to exit separation. It was a good seven seconds after the two way left before I was allowed to go.

[PhreeZone 15]

You were trying to sitfly? New freefliers typically fly everywhere and are no where near flying straight down. Odds are you slid all over the sky in your sit and that blew any seperation you had. New freefliers are typically told to turn 90 to the line of flight incase they are back sliding or driving.

Did you talk this over with any of the instructors/experienced freefliers at the DZ?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,463]

>It was a good seven seconds after the two way left before I was
>allowed to go.

Seven seconds is sort of an absolute minimum when it comes to Otters in no winds. If there were upper winds over about 20kts it would probably be wiser to wait a little longer.

[StearmanR985 0]

Quote

You were trying to sitfly? New freefliers typically fly everywhere and are no where near flying straight down. Odds are you slid all over the sky in your sit and that blew any seperation you had. New freefliers are typically told to turn 90 to the line of flight incase they are back sliding or driving.

Did you talk this over with any of the instructors/experienced freefliers at the DZ?

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps next time I will take few seconds to track away from the line of flight before trying to freefly. Do you think that will help?

Edit: Don't forget that after I made my feeble attempt at sitting I got back to belly and stable and looked for them. As I stated earlier, when I pitched, we did have horizontal separation.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps next time I will take few seconds to track away from the line of flight before trying to freefly. Do you think that will help?

As he said, simply turning 90 degrees off the line of flight should be sufficient. Most people who "slide" in a sit ar sliding either forwards or backwards, so as long as you're pointed off the line of flight you should be fine.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Paige 0]

Quote

New freefliers are typically told to turn 90 to the line of flight incase they are back sliding or driving.
Did you talk this over with any of the instructors/experienced freefliers at the DZ?

First time I've heard that suggestion and you know the people I have talked to and worked with. I wonder why no one mentioned this before? Thanks for the info. I'll definately do that next time I work on my sit.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[StearmanR985 0]

Thanks AM. I will definetly do that next time.

Jeff

[PhreeZone 15]

Have you went freeflying with me yet? I always try to cover that in the dirt dive.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Paige 0]

Not you but others Guess I should have jumped with you!

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[The111 1]

Quote

It may not be desirable, but it certainly isn't unreasonable.

Adjusting 500 feet is only 2.5 seconds of freefall, or maybe packing a slammer instead of a snivel - dificult to pinpoint since we don't know what kind of opening we're about to have. Depending on an additional 500 feet of vertical to avoid this situation will be prone to failure. Ensuring proper horizontal separation will serve you much better, hence my comments about proper exit timing.

_Am

Yeh, I agree that vertical separation is not something to aim for. I was just making an off-topic comment about the correlation between experience and how low you're "in the saddle". At 50 jumps I wanted to be in the saddle by 3k or higher!

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[pccoder 0]

Me too, I am always throwing at 4k

PcCoder.net

[grega 0]

Try watching your canopy, but at the same time watch in front of you too.
Somewhat like when you're driving a car.
You always look in front through your wind shield, but you'll see any change in the back mirror if it occurs. so you're watching straight forward and in the backview miror at the same time

Ty doing that at the opening, watch the opening and in front of you at the same time

"George just lucky i guess!"

[WeakMindedFool 0]

billvon,
He was with me at Skydance. We exited from a 182 at 11,900 dumped at 3500. 5 - 10 kts ground winds, 24 kts uppers (at exit) upwind jumprun. Another jumper and I ended up doing a 2-way (jeff I thought you were coming with us BTW). Jeff planned on deploying higher but he ended up sniviling down to us. I was doing my opening stuff headed down and to the wes of the line of flight when he sniveled into where I was and above by about 30 feet verticle mabey 100 to 50 horizontal. We were headed straight at each other. I was on my rear risers at the time. We would have collided with spectacular results as we were pretty dead on. I did a hard right front riser dive as I was below him. It was close but not heart poundingly so. Stearman...damn dude, you should have stayed!!! There's a movie being shot there (hollywood action thing) they had an Astar 350. they wanted to practice some shots so they loaded up the caravan took us to 13,500 and filmed us out. I opeded the door to spot and there was a helocopter RIGHT THERE. We did a speed star and it was keen! The helocopter followed the last guy down (this was planned and done safely, they did a second pass to completely clear the rest of us from the air).
So Jeff, come on out again soon, we most def. had a separation problem even if you had a long snivel. I think we should work it out by jumping...alot...and next time we'll exit together then we wont almost hit each other!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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[WeakMindedFool 0]

Well actually what they said was, "just wait till the last jumper is 45 degrees frome you...why are you laughing?" So I said, "oh...no reason, I just like jumping out of planes." I WILL NOT tell a guy with thousands of skydives that, "billvon on the internet says..." I believe you BTW. I just count extra seconds while everyone is saying ,"go....GO!!!" It's fun to just sit there and smile at em...lol.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[bodypilot1 0]

Hey Jeff
Download the USPA SIM manuel and look at the minimum opening altitude of an A lisenced skydiver.
2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL
USPA SIM
Thought you may have pulled higher than 2000ft and had a LONG snivel, try and look at your altimeter during that time also. You dont want to ride that sniveling canopy to the ground do you?
As for opening next to someone, yes, you do move all over the sky when you are trying to sit fly. Just as you did today when I jumped with you in Lodi. A longer count before exiting for better seperation is the key. Talk to whom ever is going out after you also about giving you time before they jump, or try and go out LAST.
Also, you forgot to mention that someone that was recommended by the Skydance staff was telling you when to go, so it's partly their fault for not telling you to jump without enought seperation for the type of skydive you were doing.
I'll see you in Lodi.
Be safe.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com