Canopy Downsizing When?

[pccoder 0]

bravo!! you put a whole new perspective on canopy flying. glad to hear that I'm not the only one rushing out and getting the smallest, fastest canopy I can get my hands on.

PcCoder.net

[D22369 0]

My exit weight is around 175 lbs. These numbers are the approximate numbers on each canopy, but they are in the order that I downsized
Raven 4 - 20 jumps (student gear)
Interceptor 225- 30 jumps, broken tib/fib
Raven 3 - 200 jumps
Raven 2 - 50 jumps
Aerial 170 - 300 jumps
Triathlon 135 - 50 jumps
Stiletto 135 -500 jumps
Stiletto 120 - 300 jumps
Icarus fx 85 - 300 + and still going

The dz that I learned at was quite conservative with what you could jump at, if the dzo didnt think you could handle something then you were not allowed to jump it.

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[The111 1]

Quote

bravo!! you put a whole new perspective on canopy flying. glad to hear that I'm not the only one rushing out and getting the smallest, fastest canopy I can get my hands on.

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here. Sarcasm? Typo? All I did was state what my own personal progession is probably going to look like, and that it's conservative compared to most.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[murps2000 86]

Quote

Then again, even straight-in these fast canopies generate a pretty decent swoop, to the best of my understanding, maybe even enough to carve some?

You can bring them in with somewhat of an accuracy-style, braked approach if you want. Let up a little (not all the way) at say, 50 ft, and a decent, well-timed stab will get you a good flare. The thing is, if you haven't learned this technique on some thing bigger first, your chance of success is probably not so good.

Try this on your spectre (up high, first), and you will begin laying the foundation of skills that just might come in handy on something smaller one day. I think spectres are great canopies for learning this. Rock solid in deep brakes, but when you let up, they do like to dive. Be ready for the stab.

[billvon 2,435]

>Let up a little (not all the way) at say, 50 ft, and a decent, well-timed
>stab will get you a good flare.

Yikes! That's a very bad way to land a HP canopy, because you essentially take away all its airspeed and then let it dive. If you do it too low there is no way to recover, since the canopy won't flare until it gets its airspeed back. Also, stabbing the toggles is generally accepted to be the worst way to flare a highly loaded canopy.

If you want to do a faster straight-in landing, adding a little front riser can accomplish that. You can drop the front risers at any time and flare if you misjudge.

[murps2000 86]

Yikes! That's a very bad way to land a HP canopy, because you essentially take away all its airspeed and then let it dive.

Only if you take it to the point of stall. And I said let up a little, not all the way to full flight.

Quote

If you do it too low there is no way to recover, since the canopy won't flare until it gets its airspeed back.

Like turning, don't do it too low. Don't bleed off all your airspeed so that you lose all lift, and with it the ability to flare.

Quote

Also, stabbing the toggles is generally accepted to be the worst way to flare a highly loaded canopy.

I agree, if you're after an efficient flare and swoop. I think this may become another of the many issues on DZ.com that revolves around semantics. By stab, I mean to say that if you're flaring a canopy that is not in full flight (i.e. braked flight), your flare will have to be deeper (and probably more abrupt) in order to sufficiently change angle of attack and arrest your descent. Is this incorrect?

***If you want to do a faster straight-in landing, adding a little front riser can accomplish that.***

That wasn't what I was after. I'm thinking of what techniques can help in landing a high WL canopy in a tight spot. If a braked approach will not work, than how else can it be done?

[pccoder 0]

no sarcasm at all, i was being completely honest. I am happy that you think like I do. I'll stick with the 170 for quite a while.

PcCoder.net

[The111 1]

I think you left out a "not" then. You implied that both you and I are "rushing out to get tiny canopies".

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[pccoder 0]

oh yea, you're right, I did. sorry. i guess i should proof read sometimes.

PcCoder.net

[billvon 2,435]

>By stab, I mean to say that if you're flaring a canopy that is not in
> full flight (i.e. braked flight), your flare will have to be deeper (and
> probably more abrupt) in order to sufficiently change angle of attack
> and arrest your descent. Is this incorrect?

Deeper, but I would disagree with more abrupt. A sudden, deep toggle motion at low airspeed can stall your canopy, and if that takes place at flare height with a high vertical speed it's all over.

>I'm thinking of what techniques can help in landing a high WL
>canopy in a tight spot.

If there's wind, I would recommend going into deep brakes and preparing to PLF. You will probably sprain or break something but you'll also probably survive. There are tradeoffs in owning a small canopy, and one of them is that you will not be able to (easily) land in small outs if you have to use them.

The technique you describe can be made to work; it's how I used to land ragged F-111 tandems. But it takes a lot of practice, and is as bad as low toggle turns in terms of 'putting you in the corner' without a way out. I saw several people get hurt doing it, because they would initiate it at the right height, catch some dirty air, and have no airspeed to stop the descent before they hit.

[vdschoor 0]

First 50 jumps on student / rental gear.

Exit weight 225-230

Triathlon 190 for 350 jumps
Sabre2 150 for close to a 100 now

Iwan

[superstu 0]

exit weight: 185-190

Student gear:
skymaster 290, 230- 40 jumps
triathlon 190- 10-20 jumps
other canopies beteen 190 and 210- 15-25 jumps
My own gear:
triathlon 160- 70 jumps
stiletto 150, 135- 300+ jumps
impulse/ alpha 120- 120 jumps
i'm about to downsize to a 104 as soon as i find a container that will fit my new stuff.

i learned the most on my st. 150 loaded at around 1.2

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[pilotdave 0]

My progression so far:

First jump: PD-170
The rest of AFF: PD-230
A couple rentals: Manta 288
At around 40 jumps: PD-150
100th jump: Sabre2 150 demo
About 110 jumps: Spectre 135 demo
Around 130 jumps: Sabre2 135 demo
Jump 135: My first tandem! 330 main And beyond that, my own Sabre2 135
Jump 169: 2nd tandem, 370 main

Dave

[NeedToJump 0]

My progression:

Student status: 260 - 170 ~ 30 jumps
At around 30 jumps I went to a Sabre 150 loaded just over 1:1 - I went to this canopy way too soon, but had no idea at the time.
At about 250 jumps I went to a Stiletto 135 after trying a Sabre 135, St. 150 and St. 135 - loaded this at about 1.3
At about 600 jumps I went to a Stiletto 120 loaded about 1.45
I just (this week) switched over to a Katana 120 loaded about 1.45 with about 900 jumps total now. I plan on staying on this canopy for a while.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[slug 1]

Quote

Was just reading through the CRW incident thread and thought a new thread would be a more appropriate location for my question?

Remember, this is educational, not me wanting to go purchase a high performance canopy, so please be gentle.
When did you experienced jumpers downsize to higher wing loadings?

I would like to downsize but keep the w/l the same so I'm waiting until I drop 30 lbs. Watch out below!

R.I.P.

[murps2000 86]

Quote

>By stab, I mean to say that if you're flaring a canopy that is not in
> full flight (i.e. braked flight), your flare will have to be deeper (and
> probably more abrupt) in order to sufficiently change angle of attack
> and arrest your descent. Is this incorrect?

Deeper, but I would disagree with more abrupt. A sudden, deep toggle motion at low airspeed can stall your canopy, and if that takes place at flare height with a high vertical speed it's all over.

>I'm thinking of what techniques can help in landing a high WL
>canopy in a tight spot.

If there's wind, I would recommend going into deep brakes and preparing to PLF. You will probably sprain or break something but you'll also probably survive. There are tradeoffs in owning a small canopy, and one of them is that you will not be able to (easily) land in small outs if you have to use them.

The technique you describe can be made to work; it's how I used to land ragged F-111 tandems. But it takes a lot of practice, and is as bad as low toggle turns in terms of 'putting you in the corner' without a way out. I saw several people get hurt doing it, because they would initiate it at the right height, catch some dirty air, and have no airspeed to stop the descent before they hit.

So what do you do when there's no wind?

As we were blessed with good weather in the northeast last weekend, I was able to put my 2:1 x-braced canopy to the low speed test. I did braked approaches aimed at the peas on seven out of the nine jumps I made. I made it within 1 meter of center on four of them, made the edge of the pit on two, and landed about a meter outside on one. One landing came after a 90 degree turn at about 70 feet in 1/2 to 3/4 brakes. Winds varied from 10-15mph down to zero between jumps.

I have to say that I am very impressed with the braked flight characteristics of my FX. I used the technique that I described, and it does, in fact, work quite well. The absolute longest it took me to shut down with no wind was about 10 meters. On the last few approaches, I would hold 3/4 brakes till about 50 feet, let up to 1/2 for a second or two, and then flare. I flared earlier, deeper, and more quickly than I normally would, and had no trouble standing any of the landings up. I'll admit that "stab" was a poor choice of words, but I did see the need to flare a bit more abruptly then I would at full flight. I tried to be quick, while remaining smooth.

Is it risky? Yes, but no more so than a low flat turn.

Does it require a lot of practice, as you state? Definitely, and it's why I said in my first post that it was best to learn how to do it on something bigger. I did just that on my old spectre 190. It was a phenominal canopy with which to explore low speed flight. My FX works the same way, everything just happens more quickly.

Would I do it in turbulence? Probably not, but then if it's turbulent, it's probably pretty windy so I doubt I'd need brakes much to slow my approach, anyway.

With all that said, I would have to admit that I could probably land in the manner that you suggest, too, if I felt the need. I could hold brakes and PLF when I hit, and I probably would if I really hosed myself while choosing outs and had to put it down on a 10 x 10 patch of dirt. Any more room, tho, and I will try to manage my energy such that I can get some kind of flare. With such an advanced airfoil overhead, piling in is rarely necessary, but it's only my opinion.

To anyone else reading this I would say that Billvon has way more experience than me so do what he says.

[billvon 2,435]

>So what do you do when there's no wind?

?? On my Safire? (1.7 to 1) Land normally and get ready to slide. I can usually slide it out (as long as I have my 'surfing' shoes with no tread) for 10-20 feet until I have to start running.

On my other canopies (135-170 sq ft) it's not much of an issue.

>Is it risky? Yes, but no more so than a low flat turn.

Agreed; my advice isn't really for canopy pilots who have wrung out their canopies, it's more for people who have not practiced "jennifer landings" (my term for brake/release/plane out/flare landings) and only have time to do one simple thing. When they only have time to do one thing, a steep approach in brakes is a good compromise between the risk of a hard landing and the risk of a dive they cannot recover from (and consequent pain.)

[taz9420 0]

My golden rule: I won't downsize unless I can land it (on me feet) at least 100 times in a row without incident.

[grega 0]

Speaking of golden rules
My golden rule is: do everything from billvons list 5 times in a row without mistake and some more drills. And then do 1000 or more jumps doing HP landings so you really can't get any faster with your canopy, no matter what HP maneuver you do. then downsize.
In short: Downsize when you want to go faster and with more risk.

p.s: Ugh, i guess i'm stuck with this 120 for the rest of my life

"George just lucky i guess!"

[kwmontreal 0]

There have been many other threads on this. Bill and Brian (germain) have some really sound advise (read: a good place to start!).

It has been said that its ok to down size after standing up 100 .... PLEASE don't!! At 100 jumps I tried a stilleto (150) (at 1.4) and I could stand up fairly comfortably with straight in approaches..... but ... I sure would not have wanted to be in trouble with that canopy.

In short ... learn to fly the piss out of your canopy. Be able to park it anywhere and know its limits (and yours!). Being able to land it 10 meters from a target 10 times is great ... can you do it under the stress of and "emergency".

I consider myself middle of the road conservative type. My canopy progression is as follows (288, 240, 190, 170). The last 2 yrs on my Saber 170 ... I may consider downsizing next year.

I am going to take a conopy coarse (Brian Germain) in April!!


Jump Safe

Kent

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JUMP SAFE!

[alain 0]

exit wheight: 170lbs
safire 220 4 jumps
Safire 200 12 jumps
Safire 189 20 jumps
Merit 190 4 jumps
Electra 190 4 jumps
Electra 170 10 jumps
springo 160 25 jumps
safire 135 500 jumps
these are figures , no advice. It would have been smarter/safer for me to fly a 150 for 200-300 jumps...
Now take my comments/advice with a grain of salt (I'm only at 550 jumps, not thouthands like many around here...)
Lesson learned: though I can now go through Bill's list with the 135, I won't downsize until I'm 100% sure to swoop the shit out of it with accuracy, what ever jump numbers it takes
My little advice would be to use bill's list untill you get at 1.1-1.2:1 or whatever you need to feel comfortable on windy days.
The question you should then ask yourself (beyond Bill's list), is do you wana go faster and is there any way to do so under your current canopy. answer to this is quite often positive and it will take some time

in a few words (this is not from me but i like it!): canopies don't swoop, good pilots swwop

edit: interesting reading here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=104235;search_string=the%20shit%20out%20of%20it%20SkymonkeyONE%20;#104235

[taz9420 0]

Good Rule. You can never be too safe. I think I'll have my 150 for a while as well.

[piisfish 135]

quote from Billvon's text :

Quote

So I came up with a list of canopy control skills everyone should have before downsizing. Some are survival skills - being able to flat turn would have saved half a dozen people this year alone

maybe better than "being able to flat turn", would be being able to flat turn INSTINCTIVELY, without having to think about it...
my 2cents

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM