CanuckInUSA 0 #26 February 15, 2005 To quote a friend of ours (Odie) who is off in Iraq risking his life as we speak. "Less bitching, more jumping". Let's try and keep the politics in Washington. Unnecessary witch hunts whether they are going after a RD, a DZO, some rated skydivers, or a skydiver who made a mistake and learned his lesson (and I would gladly share an exit point with this person any day, in fact I have shared an exit point with him on more than one occasion) are counterproductive. Instead of trying to divide ourselves, might I suggest that we try and unite to be one ... one big happy family. The whuffo world doesn't understand why we do what we do. Why do we need to misunderstand each other? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #27 February 16, 2005 Why do we need to misunderstand each other?(quote) Because some people keep doing really stupid shit in the sport without thinking of how their actions hurt others and the sport as a whole, like jumping base rig's out of planes, like what happend at the royal gorge. Others know this crap is going to be done and don't speek up but go along with it because they think it is "cool" or "badass" thing to do till shit happends. As for RD's and uspa they have had the "good old boy" club take a look at dz's and dzo's before and sweep a lot under the rug doing a disservice to all members who pay dues. So yes we need to keep even the uspa in check after all it "our" org., not the boards,ND's,RD's,or dzo's, it belongs to all of us! ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #28 February 16, 2005 QuoteI was more concerned about the fact that this person is yanking ratings and licenses for no reason, starting investigations based solely on rumors, attacking and threatening those who refuse to talk to her and all around sticking her nose in people business where it doesn't belong... I'm going to try and approach this subject with some caution and voice my opinion on the matters you have addressed. -yanking ratings and licenses: In the real world, when an investigation is started, people are put on suspension till the investigation is complete. -investigations based solely on rumors If there are rumors about, and the RD didn't do an investigation would you then be writing and complaining that the RD isn't doing anything to look into these rumors. If there are rumors about, then there is a root from where they are coming from. A good RD looks into those matters and doesn't turn a blind eye. -attacking and threatening those who refuse to talk to her Do you have examples of this, or is this just how "you" feel about the situation? -all around sticking her nose in people business where it doesn't belong... Is she looking into something in your personal life? Is she looking into something that is related to violations of BSRs? QuoteNobody is happy when they are accused of doing something that they or anyone else did not do. It's only human nature to not be happy if someone accused you of doing something that "you" feel you didn't do, hence the investigation. If you or your friend did nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about. QuoteI don't need the details on what was alleged to have happened... I was there Hence the investigation, because it seems there were other people there that saw the situation differently. To Peter: Quoteare you talking about the farmer near your dz, who calls the local sheriff every time a jumper lands out? And the fact that a criminal trespass ticket MUST be issued and fought, weekly, in county court? If you land on someone else private land, you are trespassing. I agree, things happen that force skydivers to land off, but that doesn't make it right. How would you feel if someone was in your backyard? QuoteI was also wondering why the USPA Regional Director has NEVER attempted to contact the city, county, or local law enforcement to prevent and eliminate the constant harassment and legal issuances, including the farmer threatening to shoot at skydivers, in the air and on the ground. Have you contacted the RD and asked her if she has contacted the City, county, or local law enforcement? Have you tried to contact the city, county, or local law enforcement? Peter, I've jumped at the DZ, and have heard rumors of how bad the farmer is. Lucky for me I have never had to deal with him, but the sour feelings with this farmer go way back. How the farmer was approached years ago when the DZ first opened there set the tone for years to come. I believe that a relationship with the farmer is beyond repair, hence the skydivers of that community will have to bond together and go to the city and figure out an answer to the situation. If the skydivers don't get the answer they want, or think they deserve, they are going to have to live with that. Landing on the farmers land is breaking trespassing laws. Just because we are skydivers doesn't make it right. QuoteSeems like just last month (oh wait, it was) that I had to go to county court with a friend to fight and win without USPA assistance... And this has gone on for years and years, with a blind, or overlooking, eye... Have you contacted USPA and asked for assistance? What do you expect from USPA, to attend court with you for breaking the law? The RD is in a no win situation because of her job disruption. She has to investigate rumors. If jumpers in the area aren't happy with the RD, then when it's time to vote, I suggest someone else step up to the plate.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #29 February 16, 2005 -If you land on someone else private land, you are trespassing- --------------------------------------------------------- I must have misunderstood from my original Instructor who told me that a skydiver or a pilot can declare an emerengcy at any time and land where they fell is safe. IE...can't make it back, transfer your landing pattern to an open field else where. IS this a factual statement? or does is fall in to the category of what the state laws are? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #30 February 16, 2005 QuoteI must have misunderstood from my original Instructor who told me that a skydiver or a pilot can declare an emerengcy at any time and land where they fell is safe Your instructor was wrong. Legally, a skydiver is *not* an aircraft. A skydiver does not have any of the legal protections a pilot does for landing in an open field. The difference is obvious. A skydiver intentionally put themselves in the situation when they jumped from the airplane. A pilot with an aircraft emergency did not. To avoid breaking tresspassing laws, always check the spot before exiting. You are responsible for where you land. Obviously, risking prosecution by landing in an open field is a FAR smarter choice than injuring yourself in a low turn trying to "make it back". Many dropzones have agreements with neighboring farmers to allow jumpers to land on their field with permission, in the event of an unplanned off-landing, so the issue is often moot. Make sure you know what are acceptable off-landing locations. Use them. At Chicagoland, the agreement states that at the end of the season the farmer will inspect his crop, and send a bill for every broken stalk of corn. To me, that seems entirely reasonable. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,146 #31 February 16, 2005 QuoteMake sure you know what are acceptable off-landing locations. Use them. And to expand, if that means risking and out landing to avoid the possibility of landing somewhere unacceptable, do so. It's a lot less hassle to walk back than to go to the courthouse. People generally wouldn't hesitate to spot around a big lake close to the dropzone. Landing in the water would be the last possible choice. Think of an unfriendly neighbor as a lake. Then add alligators. It's his stuff. He values his land as much as you value your rig. He might be an asshole about it, but there are people here who don't mind others borrowing their gear, and people who do. And some of them are assholes about it. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #32 February 16, 2005 We as skydivers are our worst enemy causing problems with landing in a farmer's field. Many times I've seen how a skydiver takes no consideration for how they walk on the crops in the field. When skydivers do that over and over again, naturally the farmer starts to get upset. That is his life in the field that is being destroyed. If ever I land in a field that is growing some kind of crops, I walk out, no matter how far, on the side of the row. I never climb a fence in order to get out of the field unless I have permission. I admit, the field in question out at the DZ that this thread is about, has no crops, but it still isn’t our land to land on.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #33 February 16, 2005 QuoteThink of an unfriendly neighbor as a lake. Then add alligators. Thanks a good one Wendy. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #34 February 16, 2005 amen -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #35 February 16, 2005 QuoteAt Chicagoland, the agreement states that at the end of the season the farmer will inspect his crop, and send a bill for every broken stalk of corn. To me, that seems entirely reasonable. Is this farmer so intractable that the offer of a $20 every time someone screws up and lands there wouldn't do it? How much effort does he put in for every trespass case? What's the cost to the jumper? And doesn't there need to be some sort of intent of malice for it to be a criminal charge? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #36 February 16, 2005 In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it matters much at all. Just spot for yourself and if you absolutely do have to land off, dont land on the farmers field who charges the dropzone. Its easy. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 February 16, 2005 haven't landed off yet, so sounds easy enough. But a farmer that gets that upset when jumpers land on unplanted fields has issues going too. At least one of them isn't being a good neighbor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #38 February 16, 2005 Quote Is this farmer so intractable that the offer of a $20 every time someone screws up and lands there wouldn't do it? I think you misunderstand. The farmer is quite nice, and the DZ gets along with him reasonably well. The basis of any good relationship is respect. Chicagoland skydiving Center is one of the nations oldest skydivng centers, people have been jumping there since the late 50's. Despite that, they STILL seem to get along reasonably well with all their neighbors. There are no "McNasty's". The DZ respects the farmer by offering to cover any crop losses. The farmer in turn does not complain of jumpers landing in his fields. Criminal tresspass is not an issue because the DZ has been proactive in managing their relationships. The DZ does not pass on the fees to the jumper. They cover it, because they know happy neighbors are in their interest, and they don't want to discourage jumpers from landing "Safe, not close". I offered the anecdote not as a way to manage an already broken relationship, but as an explanation of why not all "off landings" are tresspass. I have no doubt that other DZ's have similar arangements with their neighbors. $20 per event is a significant order of magnitude higher than what I'm talking about. $1 per event is more realistic approximation. The intent is to refund the farmer for crop damage, it'd take a hell of a lot of damage to incur $20. Edit: Just to avoid confusion, this has been a tangent to the original discussion. The Regional director in question is NOT the one for Illinois. The DZ in question from the start of this thread id NOT Chicagoland. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #39 February 16, 2005 Just so that there is no confusionn here, the farmer AndyMan speaks of and the farmer McNasty out in Brush are two completely different people. The Brush farmer McNasty is just down right messed up in the head. But I do like what Travis (who jumps in Brush) said about just not landing on McNasty's property. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 187 #40 February 16, 2005 QuoteHaving some large issues with our regional director (wont say which region) and I was wondering how a USPA member like myself can hold a regional director responsible for unjust actions they have taken against individuals? I voted for this person and his been very disapointed with the results. I thought they were working for us, not the other way around. Any Ideas, or am I out of line? With all due respect, my guess is that you are out of line. I have known this RD for years, and have seen her put in untold hours to improve the lot of the rank and file skydivers. I don't know anyone more committed to having fun safely in the sky than is she. As far as capricious application of authority goes, I simply don't buy it. She is anything but a martinet, and I can't imagine her applying sanctions without VERY good reasons - probably reasons with which you are unfamiliar. Before you start a recall move, I suggest you look around and try to find someone who will work harder and put up with more guff than will she. I can't think of anyone who meets those qualifications off the top of my head. If you think you can do a better job, run for office. If you are a better candidate, you should get the job. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 February 16, 2005 I know we're talking about a different character. I'm surprised that some accommodation short of the municipal court can't be reached. Chicagoland did. Skydance has a nice arrangement here for use as a student and sub B landing area - we land on one of 3 fields around the Barn, whichever is not in use. $20 is well in excess of tangible damages done, but an example of a fair compromise for a farmer who feels his sense of private property isn't being respected. It's incentive to land elsewhere, but (imo) not so eggregious that you'd do something stupid instead. A threat of being shot at is not something I'd consider acceptable. I don't believe there is a state in the country that permits property owners that response to a waylard jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #42 February 16, 2005 I don't know Djan or Skratch very well. I made some jumps with them last summer. They both seem like super people, and I have great respect for both of them. I know Skratch is one of the pioneers of our sport and he posts on here regularly. It must be really disheartening to read this stuff. There must be a better way to bring a complaint against someone, than slinging mud on the internet. So, If you read this Skratch...you know whose side I'm on!....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #43 February 16, 2005 There are farmer McNasty's everywhere - its a pseudonym. I've seen them a quite a few dzs. Not only the one in Brush, but Longmont as well as other places as well. I wonder who first thought up the term Farmer McNasty cuz I've heard it in about 6 states now... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #44 February 16, 2005 I'm lazy so I haven't read this whole post, but if this guy is pist at Skratch, get a life guy. Skratch is perhaps the most giving skydiver still around today. Edit - read it, staying out of it. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #45 February 17, 2005 Quoteread it, staying out of it. Too bad, cause if more people were to step up and voice what they saw happening, then maybe it wouldn't have gotten to the mud slinging that is happening right now. I have never been know for being tackful. I don't care what people think about me I speak my mind. It may have cost me not being liked by some DZOs in the state, but I could care less. People need to step up, show some morals and some backbone and tell the correct people what they witness about the situation out at the DZ is question. But instead they sit in the corner all quiet and let the RD take the heat, cause if they speak up, they might not be able to jump at that DZ, or their friends aren't going to like them anymore.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #46 February 17, 2005 Quotemust have misunderstood from my original Instructor who told me that a skydiver or a pilot can declare an emerengcy at any time and land where they fell is safe. A pilot can violate some FARs (as necessary) in an emergency (don't really need to "declare" it...might not have a working radio). But that doesn't give the pilot a right to trespass. Sure, he's not gonna worry about some farmer suing him for destroying crops when he makes an emergency landing, but there's nothing stopping the farmer from suing him. But that's nothing compared to japan, where the act of crashing a plane into a farmers field in an emergency is probably a crime. An emergency doesn't give a pilot free reign to do whatever he wants of course. There's still the catch-all reckless flying FAR, and some airspace restrictions that can't be violated no matter what (ie. you'll get show down if you try to land on the whitehouse lawn, even after an engine failure and it's the most convenient big open area around). Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottMcC 0 #47 February 17, 2005 I've known Skratch and DJan for as long as I've been in the sport, and I'm of the opinion that they're two truly amazing people. I know absolutely nothing of the matters discussed in this thread, as I have moved away from Colorado, but I really have trouble believing that DJan would ever treat anyone badly. If I'm wrong, then please correct me, and I will lose what little faith in humanity I had left in the process. Anyway, I agree with the many people that have suggested getting the truth out in the open instead of slinging insults without some supporting evidence. It's easy to call someone names, but much harder to back it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #48 February 17, 2005 >but I really have trouble believing that DJan would ever treat >anyone badly. If I'm wrong, then please correct me . . . Don't worry, you're not wrong. DJan has been more than fair in this case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #49 February 17, 2005 Trust me person - I have many morals and I do have a backbone, go read through some of my posts over the past few yars - THUS the reason IM STAYING OUT OF IT. It has NOTHING to do with me. All I would be able to add is DJAN and Skratch have both been wonderful people to me, nothing more, nothing less. PS now that Im a father, I barely even have any friends in skydiving anymore. Regardless, I favor what is right, not what makes me popular. Don't pretend to know me by one post or even at all since I don't know you - the internet is shit for that type of thing. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #50 February 17, 2005 I'm sorry if you took my post directed at you not having morals. I guess I was just standing on that soap box and trying to get people to stand up and voice what they witness, rather then slinging mud around. There are people that were not there and have nothing to offer, people like you and me. I get mad when it's the people that were there and refuse to say anything and let the RD take the heat for doing his/her job.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
