April's Safety Check

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

I was just reading Kevin Gibson's April Safety Check on page 11 in Parachutist. He is talking about how 2004 is the year of the canopy and that the mismatch of pilot skill to canopy selection is now the biggest safety challenge in this sport (I do agree with that).

This is the section I want to talk about: "One huge challenge remaining is to convince first time rig buyers and sellers that what's been going on for the past 12 years is a mistake. Newly licensed jumpers need bigger canopies and more advanced training on how to use them. The largest canopy manufacturers and equipment dealers say they are still selling more 150s and 170s than anything else, more evidence that many new jumpers, under advice from others, are buying the wrong gear, despite all we have learned."

I realize that a smaller canopy is going to be more responsive, have a quicker turn rate and thus could be more dangerous in a panic situation near the ground that could result in injuries or worse.

Maybe it is from the training I had right from the start, but I don't see an issue with a novice under a 170...and in some cases a 150 (of course, I would rule out anvil type novices at higher WLs under these canopies). Do you feel we should be putting our novices out under 200sq foot and bigger?

I know this is a can of worms...so let's try to keep this civil and respectful. AND, if you start giving out advice please feel free to add your experience level, how you were trained, etc...etc. If you are a newbie....ask away and don't be afraid to challenge the experienced jumpers on their point of view.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[firstime 0]

at 56 jumps I went with a 190, because at 47 I don't
heal as quick when I was 20ish. Thank God I started
this sport late in life otherwise I would be one of those 150 or smaller people. I no longer have the
need for speed, just enjoying the ride.

[pilotdave 0]

Depends a lot on wingloading. A 170 is pretty big for me. That's what I used for AFF 1, and bought a lightly loaded 150 as my first canopy. My instructors even suggested a 135 was right for me for a first canopy but I went with a 150 anyway (mostly because my friend was selling it for the right price).

But a few weeks ago I saw a ~200 lb guy with 30 jumps and no A license that had just bought a brand new spectre 170. After watching one landing, the S&TA told him he can't jump it again at least until he gets the A license (and therefore can decide for himself). That's the kind of sale that has to stop. No dealer should have sold that canopy to that jumper.

Dave

[Harksaw 0]

Quote

The largest canopy manufacturers and equipment dealers say they are still selling more 150s and 170s than anything else, more evidence that many new jumpers, under advice from others, are buying the wrong gear, despite all we have learned."

I know this isn't in every case, but the first main you purchase is not normally the first canopy you fly - - who knows how many jumps the average student has before they buy their own 170?

Not to mention I think most first rig purchases are used.

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[tattoojeff 0]

not to pick on your poll but canopy size isnt too relevant. i cant vote on anything but your last option cuz its the only one with a w/l. however i would put a newbie up to a 1.2 w/l if he had consistant stand up landings since student status and was a healthy heads up skydiver. it also depends on the canopy choice ie eliptical vs semi elip or square.
blues
j

[councilman24 36]

Sorry, but this poll represents what is wrong. You can not pick a one size fits all newbie canopy. With out individual skill level and awareness, experience, WEIGHT, KIND OF CANOPY, etc. This is just like the newbie who asked "I've jumped a 210 so a 190 is the right size, right?" What 210, what 190, what w/l, what experience etc. etc. etc.

A dozen factors go into a canopy recommendation. Size DOES NOT stand alone. Your question is too simple. Are you going to put that 230 lb novice under a 170 Stilleto? It's a 170.

I know you don't really mean that but you've got to consider all the parameters and make INDIVIDUAL recommendations.

Rant off.

26 years, 2600 jumps. Not that it matters, but you asked.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[MarkM 0]

I have 50 jumps and am under a Tri 160 loaded at 1.05 and it's been a good canopy for me even in one of those "less than ideal" landing situations. It'll cripple me if I do something really stupid under it, but frankly I don't think it's the 1:1 - 1.1:1 first time canopy buyers that are causing craters.

It's when I get a couple hundred more jumps under my belt, start to think I'm invincible and get a 1.4:1 canopy that will be the time I screw up and instead of breaking my leg like I would under my old canopy, I'll shatter my body instead.

[DeNReN 0]

I think the poll choices are poor....very poory chosen...the only choice that come close to a real question is the last one...1:1

As a student at a small DZ...the only canopies for rent are manta 288's and larger.....they are very large and forgiving at my weight(160) and I have stood it up for all but one landing(I bounced back up so fast no one saw me fall)...sure I pulled one or two outa my ass
How can you compare me to at 160lbs to ralph who weighs 210(he's not a anvil....he's trim and fit..and has the same jumps and landings)...who can downsize to the 150?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

I'm not looking for a one-size fits all answer - and sorry if the poll made it seem that way. That is what annoyed me about the article....I guess others feel the same as I did.

The perspective of how a person was trained should be factored in as well. There are several DZs that are not as conservative as others, but their training program has been split into freefall and canopy skills. If someone has gone thru AFF in 8 jumps without being taught how to do braked turns (and letting them know you still lose alti during it) and other similar skills, then this will directly effect the type and size of canopy they can handle.

Also - John LeBlanc was just at SDC for the Spring Expo to give his Wing Loading talk. It's about the 7th time I've seen it, and I keep learning new things from it. He challenges everyone to listen to him and to challenge what they know about piloting a canopy. I recommend everyone to hear this if you can.

One thing he mentioned was WL - it doesn't scale from smaller to larger canopies. 1.5 under a Sabre 107 is not going to be the same as 1.5 under a Sabre 230. Not trying to make a point - just food for thought.

Pet peeves:
* there is no such thing as a true eliptical canopy in sport skydiving.
* why do people feel that stand up landings by a novice is a good way to judge their piloting skills? I know plenty of great pilots that due to medical conditions can not even walk out a landing and have to PLF each time.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[DeNReN 0]

"* why do people feel that stand up landings by a novice is a good way to judge their piloting skills? I know plenty of great pilots that due to medical conditions can not even walk out a landing and have to PLF each time. "

again

[AggieDave 6]

You know, I didn't buy my first canopy (or my first set of gear) until I had 200 jumps. I bought a 170, of course my wingloading was WAY above recommended for 200 jumps, but that was my screwup (and I got lucky).

I don't care what size the canopy is, as long as the canopy is at the right wingloading for the person. Someone might load a 190 at 1.1:1 with 50 jumps, but a 1.1:1 at 135 could be very bad for someone with 50 jumps.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

>but I don't see an issue with a novice under a 170...and in some cases a 150

150's are just as deadly as they were 15 years ago. The air hasn't changed, nor have jumpers become inherently any more skilled. There are more canopy training programs available but jumpers are simply not taking advantage of them in any numbers.

>Do you feel we should be putting our novices out under 200sq foot and bigger?

Novices should progress through each canopy size until they are competent under each size. That means if you start on a 260 square foot canopy, your next canopy should be 230 sq ft.

[DeNReN 0]

and what if the next reasonable size isnt avaible???

[billvon 2,400]

>and what if the next reasonable size isnt avaible???

You tell me. What do you do if safe skydiving equipment is not available to you?

a) postpone your jump until it is available
b) jump with unsafe equipment

Shouldn't be a hard decision.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

"The largest canopy manufacturers and equipment dealers say they are still selling more 150s and 170s than anything else, more evidence that many new jumpers, under advice from others, are buying the wrong gear, despite all we have learned."

The way I'm reading this, Kevin is inferring that most new jumpers buy 150 and 170 sq.ft. canopies. I agree with his overall point - which seems to me to be that many novice jumpers are being given bad to downright dangerous advice on what size canopy to buy - but I don't think that the fact that more 150 and 170's are sold than any other sizes proves that point.

The bulk of sales to new jumpers seems to me to be main canopies 170 sq ft and larger. Yes, a lot of 150's are sold - as a jumper's second or third canopy more often than his first. Look in the classifieds here on dz.com. You will always find more 150 mains available than you will 170 and larger mains.

He's trying to make a good point but, the section you quoted anyway, he doesn't tell the whole story to do so. Canopy size is important - yes smaller canopies do react faster to control inputs than larger ones - but size alone isn't what is injuring people, nor is the only thing to for a jumper to consider when buying a main. Wingloading under that size canopy, amount and quality of canopy control training, the individual skydiver's choice to practice or not practice canopy control skills, "natural" ability, msl altitude at the jumper's primary dz, weather conditions specific to the jumper's home dz (ie Hawaii dz's and some midwestern mainland US dz's are windy, Eloy and Perris have shifty turbulent winds), the jumper's age and physical condition... all of these factors and a number of others need to be considered when making that decision - and also need to be considered by those giving canopy sizing advice to any skydiver, novice or experienced.

~1000 jumps, 14 + years, some ratings, 7 + years in fulltime gear sales mostly for one of the largest gear dealers in the world, 3+ friends/acquaintances dead from canopy related incidents, 10+ friends/acquaintances seriously injured in canopy related incidents.

[ifics 0]

I was flying a 200 in my student status, I went to a Sabre2 170 on jump 31.. (So I basically jumped from a 200 right to a 170 but I did fly a 170 three of four times before I got mine) I am loaded 1:1 and now have 94 jumps (and I have NO plans on downsizing ANY time soon). I had my fare share of "not so good" landings while I was getting used to my canopy but I'm glad I went with that choice now. I have ZERO experience so please take my words with a grain of salt, thx..

EDIT: I did ask a lot of the more experienced canopy pilots for advice when I got my canopy... I still plan on taking a canopy control course though.

[DeNReN 0]

Jump the manta 288 that im fam with...which is what I will do soon I hope!

Quote

You tell me. What do you do if safe skydiving equipment is not available to you?

a) postpone your jump until it is available
b) jump with unsafe equipment

unsafe equipment???

Edited to add:...what is a good w/l for a student?

well...asuming I wont leave my home DZ this summer...which I will...but...lets asume....so how long would you have me stay on the student manta 288's???

[billvon 2,400]

>unsafe equipment???

Like, say, a 170. If you jump a Manta, and the only smaller canopy you can get your hands on is a 170, and you've never jumped anything smaller, it's unsafe for you to jump it (at least without some pretty intensive instruction.) Best to wait and keep jumping the Manta until you can put a few jumps on a 230, then a 190, then finally the 170 once you have mastered the larger canopies.

>Edited to add:...what is a good w/l for a student?

Depends on what you learn on. Most places use large canopies for students, and thus a good wing loading is the wing loading you are used to, or one size smaller when you are ready. A few places, like SDC, start students out on smaller canopies; a good wing loading for those students would be the smallest canopy they were trained on.

(Note that as a student an instructor will choose a canopy for you, at least until you're off AFF.)

>well...asuming I wont leave my home DZ this summer...which I
> will...but...lets asume....so how long would you have me stay on the
> student manta 288's???

Until you can fly it well, and that includes the stuff on my list. (see the safety page.)

[Kat1221 0]

Interesting post... when I was first buying gear I had a huge split in people's opinions - some said go to a 150, or even 135 because I'm a small girl and would still be under 1:1. All the others said that anything under a 190 isn't a 'first' canopy. I had one older guy say that "well, my first main was a Fury 220 - those are good starter canopies... you should get one." Kind of funny, because I think he'd be loading the Fury about the same as me under my Sabre 150.

So I guess there are quite a few people out there that still have the mindset of nothing under 200!

[Nightingale 0]

I had people advising me to get a 170 or a 150, saying that I'd outgrow something larger too fast. I basically politely told them to fuck off. I wasn't buying a smaller canopy than I was ready for. I think that the idea of "growing into" a canopy is just plain stupid, because until you grow into it, you're jumping a canopy you don't have the skill to control.

I bought a 190 silhouette that I'm wingloading at roughly .7 and am very happy with it.

I've seen and heard people (usually with a couple hundred jumps or so) trying to push some of the newer jumpers onto smaller canopies. even comments like "are you still flying that tuna boat?" can make people want to downsize too early. Its kinda sad when we put pressure on each other to do something dangerous.

[DeNReN 0]

Havent tried all the "list" yet....but most of it.

I was cleared to borrow another jumpers trialothon 190 and jump it last year..practice pulls and on radio....but weather and some other issues cut the season short

Sry to harp on you bill..its been a long off season here...starting to get alittle testy.

We dont have the option of renting/demo'ing many different sized canopies here.......its usually ask/beg to borrow gear to downsize into the "sport" canopy thing(I really hate to borrow others shit).

What bothers me..is that it seems perfectly acceptible for a AFF student to jump a 1:1 loaded canopy on there 1st/2nd/3rd jump...but for me to downsize to a 1:1 is not aceptable

Edited: to look at spelling and say fuck it

[Chrisky 0]

My instructor sized me down from a 190 to a 150 between jumps 30 and 45, because i had pretty consistent good landings (was ridded of radio instructions on jump 2, no-TD AFF). The 150 put me at a wl of ~ 1.17. I didn't really think or even know of wingloading by then...
I had consistent standup landings, until i started to flare asymetrical, putting my flare into a curve i had to run out, mostly finishing the run in a roll. This lasted for like 5-7 jumps, so my instructor came up to me and told me not to look at the ground but at the horizon, and there, i had my standups back.
He also instructed me to play around with the canopies a lot up high, so i could get a better feel for their characteristics.

Then last year @ ~260 jumps i went to a 135 (semielliptical) for 60 jumps, tried the 120 of the same model, found it to be too aggressive, went back to the 135 for like 15 jumps, retried the 120 and loved it.
The guy who told me to try the 120 was the test jumper of the manufacturer, and he had been around the DZ for quite a while and had given me a number of tipps and watched my landings. So after a couple of demos on the 120 i got my own now and love it.

I have been playing around with it a lot, and recently found me at pretty low altitude being cut off. I initiated a flat turn and thought, ok, well, crosswind landing (been there, done that). Turned out that the turn was so flat i came in upwind all fine and i had a fine, no-special landing. I was pretty amazed at how flat my canopy could turn if need be. I could even have kept up the turn and landed like 30 degrees crosswind to the other side, but i preferred a nice upwind flare...

Still, i asked a lot of people on my choice of downsizing, being aware thet my profile matches exactly the majority of fatalities/severe injuries.

Still know my PLF by heart though from two weeks of army training ten years back, my first 15 jumps were on good old T-10s.

Now gimme a sec to trench in, then keep it comin'!

On the side, a guy i knew by a common firend got a BT Pro 120 with like 85 jumps, and we both told him he was nuts. He told us he would not jump it for at least 30 jumps, but you know the deal and three weeks later i heard he had broken his ankle using the thing...

I also was tempted to do a SLAM once, because i got the rabit-snake look going due to a fence right next to the peas, but i focussed and did the peas just right. The guy i did a two way with on that jump came in right in my flight path and would have landed right next to me had he not decided to do the SLAM. Broke his femur and was off to the hospital within 15 minutes.

Edited to add: It's in my profile, but for convenience: 361 jumps, 120 Semi-elliptical loaded at 1.57:1

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[trumpetfish 0]

I used a 220 during my aff, then after 25 jumps or so tried a 190, for around 15 jumps. I then bought a 170. loaded 1:1. I bought this from my home dz and was advised (instructor) that it would be fine for my first owned rig. I consider myself a controlled canopy pilot under normal conditions. So far I have only had one hard landing -more of a 'crunch, are my teeth still there!? but that was due to heavy turbulance resulting in partial canopy collapse rather than an initial error on my part. granted if i were more experienced or had a larger canopy then prehaps it wouldn't have been such a wake up call. but then again I don't think it's done me any harm to have a 'reflective experience' like that. It's definately made me more concious of reviewing wind strength and directions before I decide to jump. and in the UK there's often quite a lot of 'reviewing' going on
what I wanted to point out is that IMO people new in the sport just do not have the experience of situations to call on to make a judgement about what is the sensible choice for their first canopy. But they may feel they do? They are influenced I think mainly by the question "am I going to have to buy another canopy in 6 months because I've 'outgrown' mine.?"

newbie's need strong advice. (and yes, im still fresh as a daisy too)
" yes, you may 'outgrow' your canopy - although this is unlikely so soon, but buying a canopy that is too small for you initialy may kill you, dummy! "

If they choose to ignore advice then it's their choice and hopefully not at the expense of another jumper.
When I started, I percieved the most 'dangerous' part of skydiving was freefall, a natural assumption. It wasn't until quite a few jumps on that i started to realise the dangers present when under canopy. Its taken me this long to realise just how little i know.

I dont think it would do any harm to put a limit on canopy size vs jump numbers for someone buying their first rig. not sure how it would work in practice, but I think it would have to be enforced through club and dz rules ultimately?

in short - you dudes who know what your doing - take time to alert new jumpers to the dangers they don't know about yet!

so, that's my '80 jump wonder' opinion
-----------------
monkey: the new word for any other.

[tattoojeff 0]

i cant beleive your saying stand up landing isnt a apprpriate gauge to flying your canopy. its completly relevant! although its not everything it shows alot about that jumpers knowledge of there canopy and flying. so what dz are you jumping at that has "plenty of pilots that have to plf every jump" in 3 years ive seen one person, pat works have to do this and that was due to ankl;e surgery and was temporary.just because they cant stand up landings due to injury doesnt mean they dont have the ability to. not to be rude but your showing your inexpierence saying things like this

[bergh 0]

Hi

I started jumping with a 285 Skymaster until jump 24. Then went on to a 190 for 11 jumps, and after that a 170 up and till jump 49. I then started jumping a 150. I consulted with 2 DZ chief instructor
before jumping the 150.

All my downsizing was clear by my local chief instructor. Who watched at least 4 landing in different
conditions with each canopy.

I feel(inexperienced opinion) that each person should be jugded on individual capability. In South Africa this is possible because our dz are so much
small.

Now the importent info ...
I am only a 63kg's = 138.6lbs

Cheers
Newbie

_______________________________________
You are unique, just like everybody else ...