Hooknswoop 19 #1 June 24, 2005 What would think of a DZ that would allow someone to jump an out of date reserve if they agreed to leave it at the DZ to be re-packed at the end of the day, but would not let them jump if they didn't? The reserve was not packed by the DZ's rigger(s) previously. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 June 24, 2005 I would think they are doing something against the FARs to allow jumping an out of date reserve. I would think they run the risk of having the FAA shut them down if they ever found out during an accident investigation. That said, there is a huge difference between legal and safe. Not everything that is legal is safe and not everything that is safe is legal. I think "ethics" is a realm beyond what is technically legal or illegal. I think "ethics" is in the mind of the beholder.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 June 24, 2005 Right, but what about using/breaking the FAR's to generate rigging business? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popeyefireman 0 #4 June 24, 2005 I would think that they are in violation with FAA rules and regs and if I remember right it is the pilot that gets the penalties ( I can't find it in SIMS right now) "I Yam what I Yam" I am not afriad to die, only to die without living. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popeyefireman 0 #5 June 24, 2005 hay i found it. it is FAR105.43 states disciplinary action can be taken against the pilot and by A DZ allowing a jumper to jump a out of date rig, they are putting their pilots license at jeopardy. "I Yam what I Yam" I am not afriad to die, only to die without living. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,106 #6 June 24, 2005 Oxymoron - n. pl. ox·y·mo·ra (-môr, -mr) A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence, a mournful optimist, an out-of-date reserve that is legal if left after jumping, but not if not.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #7 June 24, 2005 QuoteRight, but what about using/breaking the FAR's to generate rigging business? Are they doing it to generate business or just to make sure the guy gets his rig packed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #8 June 24, 2005 Is it the dz's way of allowing the jumper to jump but then making sure this person gets a repack? or is it their way to make sure they get the repack business? Either way, they are jeopardizing getting the pilot in trouble but maybe they are really trying to be compromising yet get the job done. Do you know their motivation for sure? chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #9 June 24, 2005 If the DZO _and_ the pilot agree to it, then there is no issue in my mind. They are the ones who accept the risk, and are the ones who will get screwed if anything happens. The jumper can choose to jump the reserve or not. It's no more unethical than a DZO that requires a cypres (which they also sell) or one that won't let someone not trained there jump there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 June 25, 2005 Quote If the DZO _and_ the pilot agree to it, then there is no issue in my mind. They were pressuring him by dangling the 'carrot’ of being able to jump that day, because a rigger that isn’t from that DZ packed the reserve. They were trying to get the jumper to change to a DZ rigger. This was in manifest, no pilot involvement. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #11 June 25, 2005 just curious - WHY does the pilot get the major penalty in this situation? example: our KingAir gets around to several boogies and the pilot likely doesnt know the jumpers...shouldnt that burden fall on the DZO or S&TA, or perhaps the manifest person or the senior rigger for that particular DZ? of course i DO understand this is the government we are talking about As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 June 25, 2005 Quote just curious - WHY does the pilot get the major penalty in this situation? 2 reasons; 1) FAR Part 105: "§105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems. No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows: (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger." 2) The FAA can take action against a pilot. They can't take away your "A" license, etc. The FAA places a lot of responsibility on pilots, sometimes for things they have no control over. Since it isn't feasible for the pilot to check reserve data cards, they must trust the DZ to make sure reserves are in date. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. You have to be able to trust the pilot, they should be able to trust the DZ. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #13 June 25, 2005 QuoteQuote If the DZO _and_ the pilot agree to it, then there is no issue in my mind. They were pressuring him by dangling the 'carrot’ of being able to jump that day, because a rigger that isn’t from that DZ packed the reserve. They were trying to get the jumper to change to a DZ rigger. This was in manifest, no pilot involvement. Derek If the pilot wasn't involved, and this was being used to generate riggin business, then I say that it's shit. And illegal. . OTOH, if the pilot was involved, and the offer of a repack was there to make sure the rig was repacked (ie keep the jumper safe), then it' probably OK. But still illegal.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #14 June 25, 2005 If they just wanted the jumper to get it re-packed, why offer to let him jump it for the day but only if the DZ rigger re-packed it after jumping? Why not just tell him to get it re-packed, by any rigger, and he can jump? Why the stipulation that it had to be re-packed by the DZ rigger? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #15 June 25, 2005 Quotehay i found it. it is FAR105.43 states disciplinary action can be taken against the pilot and by A DZ allowing a jumper to jump a out of date rig, they are putting their pilots license at jeopardy. The FAA can actually bring an enforcement action against the jumper, pilot, manifester, drop zone, or anybody else involved in the jump or skydiving operation. See article 13 "FAA Regulations Applied" on The Ranch web site at: http://www.ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #16 June 25, 2005 QuoteThis was in manifest, no pilot involvement. Did they at least tell the pilot after the fact? Kind of screwed up to knowingly put the pilot at risk without telling him the straight scoop.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #17 June 25, 2005 Regardless of their motives or if the pilot knew about it or not, it shows a mind set that would make me question how many other things they let slide. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #18 June 25, 2005 Excuse me, doesn't anyone have a pen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #19 June 25, 2005 why do they call it pencil pack when riggers only sign with a pen? But children who write to pen pals generally use pencils (for correction probably?) nevermind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 June 25, 2005 QuoteDid they at least tell the pilot after the fact? Kind of screwed up to knowingly put the pilot at risk without telling him the straight scoop. The jumper said "no" and left. I got a PM from another jumper at the same DZ saying they have delt witht he same issue because they don't use the DZ rigger either. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 June 25, 2005 Quotexcuse me, doesn't anyone have a pen? I use a stamp for this very reason. If someone pencil packs (forges my signature) my reserve pack job, I will charge them for that re-pack and refuse to ever pack their reserve again. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #22 June 25, 2005 QuoteQuotexcuse me, doesn't anyone have a pen? I use a stamp for this very reason. If someone pencil packs (forges my signature) my reserve pack job, I will charge them for that re-pack and refuse to ever pack their reserve again. Derek Derek, I meant changing the date to get thru the weekend. I'm very perticular about who packs my reserve. Chris always does my repacks. I did this while out of town for a competition and went Sunday to have a repack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #23 June 25, 2005 Quote I meant changing the date to get thru the weekend. That would qualify. The rig is good for 120 days after I pack it. If it is jumped after that, fine. But if the card is altered or forged, then I will not pack for that person anymore. I put a re-pack due sticker, along with maint and batteries due sticker on each reserve data card. The jumper has zero excuse for not knowing that their reserve was due in time to get it re-packed. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #24 June 25, 2005 I took the responsibility away from the dz and pilot. It was my fault for not knowing. I changed email addresses since the last repack and been relying on Square 1's reserve notification service. It was a week out of date. No excuse, just a reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #25 June 25, 2005 Quote I took the responsibility away from the dz and pilot. But not the rigger. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
