Sabre 135 w/ 25 jumps ~ 1.4 WL

[Kimblair13 0]

Your right, I'll get him started on 270's next time he's out. Watch out PD Factory team, you gots a competitor that's gonna out swoop ya soon as he has 30 jumps!
What is this world coming to.
Maybe on his next jump too he'll come FF with me.

[MakeItHappen 15]

This is an interesting and re-occurring problem.

Attached is a draft Canopy Control Quiz.

Ask the jumper to take it and send his responses to me. It will remain confidential.

Anyone else may also take the quiz and send results to me. Please do not post your answers here.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 7]

Good quiz....

Might want to just use "Bigger and Smaller" or "1.5 and 1.2 WL"

Instead of canopies "A" and "B".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[marks 0]

nice;

but honestly, i dont understand # 21...

[Avion 0]

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This brings up a point I've been thinking about recently. For the Hot Swoop Gods™ amongst us: how about next time some low-timer talks about an inappropriate downsize you borrow their rig and show them just what can be done with it? If a picture tells a thousand words, what does a 150ft swoop under a Saphire2 168 do?

I just got a fun little 60' swoop out of my 210 Spectre using a normal, low speed, approach. I only realized that after the fact, while being dismayed because of missing the target by so much, when I walked off the distance. I planed out three feet directly over the 'Big X' and cruised off 20 paces before touching ground. Before this I had thought I was only getting 20-30'

Anyway, back to topic, I am at a loss as to what to say about a 1.4WL and 25 jumps. I have been here long enough to read quite enough reports about people who think they can do that. The consequences of this combination seem to be so well known, that personally I think the DZO ought step up and ban him from jumping that canopy there. But, who am I to say, and futhermore, he would probably be offended by other people's concern for his own well being. So, what else could be done, besides just letting him break himself in a public fashion?

[Feeblemind 1]

This is most likely going to end up in the incident posts like everyone has said already. When I was a whuffo a friend told me a very similar story. This 300 jump wonder wanted to downsize to a high performance elliptical canopy. The DZ staff advised him against it as well as told him they would not allow him to jump it at their DZ. Well I know more than you bought the canopy anyway (how i don't know) and came to the DZ ready to jump it, needless to say his gear was inspected and he was told he would not be allowed to jump the canopy as previously advised, HE WAS NOT QUALIFIED TO PILOT THE CANOPY.

Well, Mr. 300 jump wonder took his toy and drove to a DZ where he was not know or questioned about his rig. He paid his slot, boarded the plane, jumped, and then hooked it in and killed himself on he 1st jump on his shiny new canopy (stupidity is deadly in this sport).

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[Avion 0]

At least your DZO will be the responsible one.


Edited--------------------------------------

Whoops, that must have been some one else.

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Are you talking about Alan? What was it, a 96 Velocity and 20lbs of lead with 300 jumps?

I was already feeling deja vu. Maybe, you should give him Alan's incident report report. Particularly, the post where he describes relearning how to perform his bodily functions and walk again.

Cheers

[bob.dino 0]

Q3: it should be affect instead of effect.
Q16: should it be 'natural recovery arc' or do you mean 'natural recovery'?

And I second Ron and marks's comments. I understand Q21, but then I've an engineering degree...

edit: should've said that I really like the quiz. It made me think and question the level of understanding I have of certain fundamental concepts.

[br0k3n 0]

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And I second Ron and marks's comments. I understand Q21, but then I've an engineering degree...

Hmmm I don’t understand Q21 and I have an Aeronautical Engineering Degree…. what conditions, weather?? mental health?

Dave, can you explain ?

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[marks 0]

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I understand Q21, but then I've an engineering degree...

i understand it also, after some thinking. but it needs to be re worded.

and there are 1 or 2 that are questionable. but all in all, very very nice quiz!!!!

can i use it?

[br0k3n 0]

Ok how about...

21. The natural recovery arc of a canopy remains unaffected by changes in condition initiated by control inputs from the pilot.

A - True
B - False

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[bob.dino 0]

The question could be clumsily rephrased as:

"Once you let go of all inputs, the recovery arc is not affected by whatever inputs you had applied. True/False."


Leave my mental health out of this. It's fragile enough as it is .

[MakeItHappen 15]

Life is sometimes amazing. That quiz took me 30 minutes to write. That is an incredibly short amount of time. Anyone that has written an exam, especially multiple choice questions, can testify to that. I posted it, even though I knew it was imperfect, because I wanted feedback and I wanted to show that someone with 25 jumps total would not know the same things as someone jumping a 1.4 WL. If I put the word DRAFT on it, then I can always claim 'I meant to say… yadda, yadda, yadda'.

I asked myself, if I was face to face with this jumper, what would I ask him to get him to realize for himself that he did not know enough about canopy control to jump a 1.4 WL. IOW, I was asking questions that I do not expect every 25-jump jumper to know, but I do expect that someone under a 1.4 WL better know before they need the info.

This all goes back to my personal philosophy about risk taking being a 3-step method.
1. a learning process,
2. a skill acquisition stage and
3. a challenge stage.

WRT the comments:
I agree that the Canopy A vs Canopy B sentence structure can be better. There were some questions that I omitted that also included Canopy C and Canopy D. C and D were elliptical canopies with the same WL as A and B, respectively.

If you restructure the q

Canopy B will have _____ airspeed than Canopy A.
a higher
a lower
the same
indeterminate

to say

The higher WL canopy will have _____ airspeed than the lower WL canopy.
a higher
a lower
the same
indeterminate

you get into too many 'higher', 'lower' phrases. That can be confusing too.
Let me know what you think.

Re Q 21 'initial conditions'
I'll admit I let some esoteric nomenclature slip in.
Initial Conditions means anything such as the speed and angle of the canopy at the start of the natural recovery, density altitude, wind speed, etc
That Q was really meant to address initial velocity (speed and angle), so I'll rework it.

effect vs affect
I'll get my grammar expert, who writes AP English exams, to tell me what to do. MS Word did not flag it either way.

Q16: should it be 'natural recovery arc' or do you mean 'natural recovery'?
I do mean natural recovery. The word 'arc' implies a section of a circular path. Natural recovery trajectories may or may not follow an arc.

One last thing, for those of you that have read the quiz, please forward your answers with commentary to me, in confidence. This does two things. It helps rewrite the questions. It helps me identify 'problem' areas.

You never know, maybe some questions can be added to SIM 6-10 or 6-11.
I can MakeItHappen.

A special request to Ron, BillVon, SkyBytch and Derek:
You already know that a WL BSR won't get into the SIM. This can be a step on the educational path. Your feedback would be appreciated.

Just checking additional posts---
Your questions would make more sense to me if we had the same definition of 'natural recovery'. Please send me your replies.

Thanks

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[br0k3n 0]

Instead of using “canopy a” “canopy b” just define what they are…
e.g

Canopy B will have _____ airspeed than Canopy A

Instead

A Vengeance 120 loaded 1.35 lbs/ft² will have _____ airspeed then a Sabre 150 loaded 1.52 lbs/ft²

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Instead of using “canopy a” “canopy b” just define what they are…
e.g

Canopy B will have _____ airspeed than Canopy A

Instead

A Vengeance 120 loaded 1.35 lbs/ft² will have _____ airspeed then a Sabre 150 loaded 1.52 lbs/ft²

This type of question does not test the test-takers' knowledge.
In the question, you change three parameters: canopy make and model, canopy size and canopy WL.
Whatever the person answers, you do not know if they relate it to the make/model or size or WL or a combination of the factors. The question does not illicit positive confirmation of a jumper's knowledge.

Next year when the Acme 120 is introduced, will the fundamentals change?

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[mdrejhon 8]

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Next year when the Acme 120 is introduced, will the fundamentals change?

That's funny -- I saw a poster of Wil E. Coyote flying an ACME branded parachute with a mal. As a result, I'd think ACME parachutes are dangerous even at less than 1:1 wingloading.

Anyway, your test is very interesting. I'm reading through Germain's "The Parachute And Its Pilot" which is probably required study material for a newbie taking your test...

(Note: Flying at 1:1 and staying at that for now. I have still lots to learn...)

[skybytch 259]

Good quiz. I can't answer all the questions, which shows me areas I need to learn more about (the point, yes?).

What is the intended use? A one time shot in Parachutist? Or as part of a larger, USPA produced canopy education program?

[Praetorian 1]

I took your quiz and tried to send it to the E-mail address on the bottom to get graded... it got bounced back as "invalid domain" or some such.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Good quiz. I can't answer all the questions, which shows me areas I need to learn more about (the point, yes?).

What is the intended use? A one time shot in Parachutist? Or as part of a larger, USPA produced canopy education program?

The original intent was to get some 25-jump whipper-snapper to go back to a lower WL.
repeat:
You never know, maybe some questions can be added to SIM 6-10 or 6-11.

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I took your quiz and tried to send it to the E-mail address on the bottom to get graded... it got bounced back as "invalid domain" or some such.

Please check to see that you used the correct email addy. It works. Try again.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Witelli 0]

I know I don't have much experience skydiving, but let me speak logically/ethically. If he's a potential danger to other skydivers, then something must be done. Maybe ban together with others and refuse to get on a load with him, The DZ will surely do something then. If he's not a danger to others, offer your thoughts and concerns and that's really all you can do. Good luck.

[billvon 2,463]

>Maybe ban together with others and refuse to get on a load with
>him, The DZ will surely do something then.

Why? It's a hassle to do something. It would involve a big fight. Easier to let him jump solo.

>If he's not a danger to others, offer your thoughts and concerns
>and that's really all you can do.

Problem is that it's hard to see if he's a hazard to someone else until he takes them out in the landing area.

[Jeth 0]

This thread got me thinking about a guy I have been worrying about. He's such a nice guy, and I don't want to see him get hurt.

He's been off student status for about a month (he graduated a week or so after me). When he was a student, he was on a Sabre2 210. After he graduated, he went to a Sabre2 170. On that canopy, he was telling me about some hard landings he had. It doesn't sound like he PLF's. He said he almost broke his shins trying to stand it up.
Then this weekend I find out he's now on a Stiletto 150!! This guy told me he weighs 195 lbs, and he has about 40-some jumps.

Several people were there trying to tell him that thats a HP canopy and he's loading it pretty high. He was talking about how he's had great landings on the 170. I told him to try and land it downwind or off-dz before he thinks he's got it mastered. He just joked about how he's not going to land off.

The thing is, I don't think its entirely that he's trying to be a bad-ass. But why else would you go from a Sabre2 210 to a Stiletto 150 in a month!? I keep joking with him that I'm gonna kick his ass if he ends up with a broken leg. But he could end up worse than that. Especially if he starts trying to swoop that thing!! He jokes all the time about how he's gonna wait for 10 more jumps before he takes up swooping (or something along those lines).

Does he not realize how fast a landing can go bad? Or how that canopy is going to respond a lot faster to inputs than he's used to? Does he really know and just doesn't care? Or does he really think he's invincible?

Geez.... I really hope he doesn't break himself. I don't know why this is bugging me so much. I guess its because he is the first person who I've known to do this. Most of my fellow recent grads are pretty conservative.

I guess he did pretty well in AFP so he got a bit cocky. But he is a really nice, funny guy and it will really suck if he does himself in.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[billvon 2,463]

>The thing is, I don't think its entirely that he's trying to be a
>bad-ass. But why else would you go from a Sabre2 210 to a
>Stiletto 150 in a month!?

Because he doesn't want to be a pussy and jump a big loser canopy. A lot of newer jumpers get exposed to two kinds of experienced jumpers - people who have never learned to land well, and land their large canopies poorly, and people who _have_ learned to land well and are jumping smaller canopies. Which group does he want to be like?

To experienced jumpers, the progression you need to follow to get to high wing loadings is pretty clear. To a newbie, often it isn't. Only the end result is visible. That's one reason you often hear them saying "well, Joe Swooper broke his leg because he's an idiot." A fairly competent jumper who makes a minor mistake and breaks his femur doesn't fit in their world. If you're competent, you land well.

>I don't know why this is bugging me so much.

Well, I'll tell you why it bugs _me_. Because you can see it coming, and he's your friend, and you can't do anything about it. It's like watching someone who's falling down drunk get into a car and drive away. You know what's going to happen. In skydiving, though, it's a lot harder to take his keys away.

[Jeth 0]

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To experienced jumpers, the progression you need to follow to get to high wing loadings is pretty clear. To a newbie, often it isn't. Only the end result is visible. That's one reason you often hear them saying "well, Joe Swooper broke his leg because he's an idiot." A fairly competent jumper who makes a minor mistake and breaks his femur doesn't fit in their world. If you're competent, you land well.

Ok, maybe thats it. He knows he's competent, so he thinks the only way the landing will go bad is if he makes it so. So like he thinks there is nothing in the situation out of his control?

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Well, I'll tell you why it bugs _me_. Because you can see it coming, and he's your friend, and you can't do anything about it. It's like watching someone who's falling down drunk get into a car and drive away. You know what's going to happen. In skydiving, though, it's a lot harder to take his keys away.

Yup, I am worried about something bad happening. But I think I am also insecure about my feelings. Like, what do I know! Maybe he is a really good canopy pilot and he won't have any problems and he'll turn out to be a world-class swooper. I guess its like this -- I hope I am wrong, but I really don't want to find out that I'm right.

He made a comment that our instructor probably wouldn't be too happy to see him under the 170. Now its a 150!! Should I say something to her? I'm afraid she'll tell me its none of my business and I'm just a rookie too so I don't know anything, and he's totally fine under that canopy. Geez... I don't even know him that well, why do I care so much!

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[billvon 2,463]

>He knows he's competent, so he thinks the only way the landing will
> go bad is if he makes it so. So like he thinks there is nothing in
>the situation out of his control?

Pretty much. He has done X, Y and Z, and no landing has ever scared him. Therefore, as long as he doesn't screw up, no landing ever will (in his mind.)

I used to hope people like this never got hurt, but lately I've been hoping they break their femurs early on. Because 1) a femur break is scary, and they will learn that things can go seriously wrong if you're not on top of your game, and 2) femurs generally heal up pretty well. I know at least two people who broke their femurs and (in my opinion) it saved their lives. Of course the best case is that they learn it on their own _without_ breaking anything, but some people are simply unable to.