craichead 0 #1 April 19, 2004 Some background: I got my A last season in October. The last canopy I jumped was the DZ's 5-6 year old student gear with thousands of jumps, a ZP 215, made by the Chute Shop (now known as Parachute Systems), wing loading 1:1. My landings were pretty good--I butt-slid most of them in but managed to stand up a few in 10-12 mph winds, too. This past weekend I did my currency jump after six months off. I jumped similar student gear, a ZP 215, but it wasn't the same one I jumped at the end of the season (that one was out for a reserve repack). My first landing was better than I thought it was going to be, having not jumped in 6 months. I flared just a little too high, and I slid it in. Winds were light and variable. On my second jump, the winds had picked up a little, about 7-8 mph. I came in, flared and when I touched down I rolled on my ankle and dropped to my knees. My husband got video of the landing, and he said that it looks like I "forgot" to run it out. Also, I probably could've pulled the toggles a little further because it looks like I didn't quite finish the flare. Now...I have a brand new Sabre2 190 packed in my own rig. I'm really itching to jump my own gear, but I don't want to rush into jumping it when I can't seem to land the 215. However, several other jumpers were saying that the student gear is so old and has so many jumps on it that it just doesn't perform or fly well and have the lift that I could take advantage of on my new 190. It's quite telling that when I lay it on the floor cocooned for packing, it deflates quickly and with very little effort. My husband and I asked two AFF instructors for advice. The first (my JM on a couple early AFF jumps) said that if I jump the 190, it's going to be a lot faster and from that I can get performance, but that I probably shouldn't jump it until I can land the 215. The second (my JM on later AFF jumps) said that yes, it will be faster, have more lift and more of a "staged" flare that I will have to learn, but it should be okay if I jump in slightly higher winds, say 12-15 mph. It would fly similarly to the 215 in light/no wind. Neither instructor has jumped the student gear. I've done a lot of the things on billvon's checklist...the scarier front/rear riser maneuvers I've only done up high. I would be loading the Sabre2 190 at 1.16. My original plan was to demo a Sabre2 210 to learn the flying characteristics of the Sabre2, but that size isn't available at the moment. I've put my name on a waiting list, hoping that I'd get it sooner than later. Haven't gotten it yet, so I'm jumping student gear. So here's the question (finally!)...should I continue to jump the old student 215 until I feel totally comfortable flying it, or should I try the new 190 in higher winds (12-15 mph) to see if I can learn on a canopy with better performance and lift? Will the stronger flare of the new Sabre2 help me out, or will the faster speed hurt? _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #2 April 19, 2004 WARNING: Newbie response here so make sure to verify it with other more experienced people. From my own experience (though I have yet to even get as high as 1:1 wingloading) I have been flying an original Sabre 210 (w/l .69:1). I stand up pretty much all but my first jump of nearly every time I am out. I decided to try my roommate's Hornet 170 (because I will eventually purchase it from him). I am still only loading the 170 at .85:1, so not yet at 1:1. What I noticed most about the canopy was 1) it was much more responsive to toggle input; 2) This particular canopy has a very flat glide ratio - nice for getting back from a long spot; 3) It comes in MUCH faster when approaching the ground; 4) it is much easier to flare and 5) the lift at the end of the flare is much better. I stood up the landing on this canopy and was really impressed by the performance. Please note that I have downsized from student gear very slightly because in the beginning I was having difficulty with my flare and standing up my landings. I would not - at this time - wish to downsize my canopy below 1:1. . .but this is me and I am quite conservative when it comes to downsizing. I made sure I could do pretty much everything on Bill Von's list before moving on and also waited until my instructors felt it was safe for me to move down. Be careful and be safe. Maybe taking a canopy control course coupled with the downsizing would be helpful. While it probably will not be a huge deal, I tend to err on the side of caution. . .good luck to you!________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #3 April 19, 2004 im wondering why you felt the need to ask dz.com this q's. your aff instuctors told you there opinion wich is much better than ours because they have seen you land as well as helped train you. they would know much better than people who dont know you and have never seen you fly your canopy. it sounds like your possibly looking for another answer which is understandable when you have a buetiful new saber 2 waiting to be jumped!!! ;) but be patient with that being said heres my 2 cents.... i can see jumping your new canopy going either way. i had shitty landings as a newbie under a triatholon. when i bought a saber my landings actualy improved because it had more lift/ flare. this may be true in your case, however it may not be. the flip side is your saber 2 in low winds will be extremy faster than anything youve ever jumped, and definitly fast enough to break your legs if you dont perform correctly!!!! it sounds like to me you need more expierience with landings. the fact that you only have stood up landings with a strong headwind say alot. you need to plan for worst case scenarios like what if you had to land this new canopy off the dz due to a bad spot in a tight area downwind. if you cant do that you shouldnt jump it. we need to plan for worst case scenario not best case. the saber 2 is a very responsive modern semi eliptical canopy that can hurt you bad in that situation. i think you should listen to your instructors and make much more jumps in close succesion to address your landing problems, its the only way to improve. be patient and trust those now whom you trusted then to get threw the student program.. good luck, jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #4 April 19, 2004 The problem with "listening to her instructors", is that she's gotten two different answers, from two different instructors. Both instructors are well respected. The source of the problem is that none of her instructors have jumped the student gear. Both instructors qualified their answers by saying "I haven't jumped that canopy, but....". At the same time she's being bombarded by lower number jumpers saying "yeah, my landings on those canopies sucked, too". "Jump a real canopy and they'll improve". Craichead and myself are both smart enough to know that jumping a smaller canopy will most certainly NOT help her landings. That said, it's entirely possible that jumping a canopy that isn't completely baffed-out will help. Craichead isn't asking here because she thinks she got the WRONG answer, she's asking here because she thinks she's gotten crappy answers. In all honesty, I agree with her. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #5 April 19, 2004 Me, I'd jump the sabre2 190 but thats because I have jumped a sabre2 190 and I load it just under 1:1 I can say that my first jump on a saber2 210 was so much easier to land then my 5th jump on a manta 288. I'd suggest a middle ground, find someone who will loan/rent you a sabre2 210, or a safire 2 or a Hornet.. so you have the same size but a decent ZP main, see how you do, if the improved lift from newer ZP improves your landings consider the 190 if not, well then pratice with a bigger main (not the student gear its hard full flare will not train you to do the "staged" or smooth flare for the sabre2) Note I am a novice I'm only posting my experience as to landing improvement with a better/newer zp vs F111 main .. be very cautious remember you will be loading the 190 higher then I did but your jump from a 215 to a 190 isn't that huge a jump and the better condition ZP might make up for it. be warry though as landing speeds will increase requireing better timing of the flare. AGAIN I'm A NOVICE just posting from similar experience to what you are considering doing. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #6 April 19, 2004 i re read her post and see she did get 2 different answers but you cant say she got the wrong answers cuz they both said 2 different things. so on has to be correct by the law of chance. the reason is both answers have the potential to be corrct or incorrect, but the only way she going to fin out is to jump it. if shes wrong she may get very hurt so ill stand by my advice as to play it safe until shes more capable under canoipy. a proficiant canopy pilot should be able to land in any winds under different w/l. i dont know why you on the defensive about my post. ill repeat the most important part, can she land off in a tight situation down wind succefully under a new faster canopy. yes or no. maybee dont cut it. your not thinking of these factors. it doesnt sound like she could walk away fromthat type of situation. im looking out for her saftey not her desire to jump a new canopy. so if SHE feels my advice is bogus then ignore it. but she asked so dont get bent out of shape when people answer with cautious advice. im trying to help her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #7 April 19, 2004 >but it should be okay if I jump in slightly higher winds, say 12-15 mph. Don't jump a canopy that you can only land safely in a narrow band of wind conditions. Winds change. The Sabre2 210 (or a Spectre 210, or a Silhouette 210, or a Safire 209) idea is a good one. If you can suddenly land it with no problem at all, you should be good to go on the 190. If you have the same problems you had on the 215 - then the canopy's not the problem, and you will know what you have to work on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #8 April 19, 2004 I agree completely that we're looking for the safest way to get her onto a canopy that works well. PD has not been helpful at all. They've estimated six weeks for a Demo Saber2, 210. Quite honestly, I'm really very surprised, and disapointed. There isn't anyone else at the DZ with canopies in this range to borrow from. Under the 215 she's close to a 1:1 wingloading. Under the 190 she's basically at 1:1.16. That is not a significant difference, from where I'm sitting. As to her being able to land it succesfully off-field, that's exactly what we're asking. Will she have more success flying the more modern wing (even at a slightly higher wingloading) because of the condition of the fabric, and the design of the shape? We're frustrated because all the answers we get focus entirely on the slightly higher wingloading, and completely ignore the changes in design, and condition of the fabric. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #9 April 19, 2004 >They've estimated six weeks for a Demo Saber2, 210. There are quite a few other canopies in that size (and performance) range. The Pilot and Safire 2 are almost identical to the Sabre 2. The Silhouette is pretty close. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #10 April 19, 2004 its not really a q's of wingloading as it is flight characteristics. the saber 2 has much faster forward speed than a 215 f1-11 beatup student canopy.ive watched many saber 2's land in light and variable winds and they are fast. they have alot of forward speed, this is what gives them such a responsive flare. speed = more lift. but in her case she doesnt need more sped she needs more expierience. it sounds like she has more speed than she can handle under the 215, hence the good landing with strong headwinds. maybee a good compromise would be borrowing a less exhausted 215 or larger 7 cell for a few jumps. i know from expierence student canopys have little to no flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #11 April 19, 2004 Quotei re read her post and see she did get 2 different answers but you cant say she got the wrong answers cuz they both said 2 different things. He didn't say I got wrong answers...just crappy answers. Quotei dont know why you on the defensive about my post. ill repeat the most important part, can she land off in a tight situation down wind succefully under a new faster canopy. yes or no. maybee dont cut it. your not thinking of these factors. it doesnt sound like she could walk away fromthat type of situation. im looking out for her saftey not her desire to jump a new canopy. Don't take it the wrong way. He's being defensive because he's my husband. You're both looking out for my safety (actually, we all are...that's why I posted here), which is much appreciated. We're also looking for other knowledgeable opinions so that we can consider all other factors better. AndyMan is one of the more vociferous people on this site about people's being able to fly the crap out of their mains in all conditions before deciding to downsize. He's also a big supporter of the theory and practice that people should demo reserves and jump them in varying conditions...but that's a different thread. So...thanks to everyone for their input (more is always welcome). I've emailed PD to see if I can get a Silhouette 210 to demo. I'll also contact Aerodyne and Icarus. Thanks for the advice and suggestions, Bill! _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #12 April 19, 2004 You also have SDC right down the road with Sabre2's in all their student gear. You might want to talk to them about doing a jump on their rental rigs. It might not be your container, but at this point if you were to jump the 215 its not goin g to be your container anyways.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #13 April 19, 2004 Yah, we thought of that. I've been toying with that idea more and more now that I won't be getting a demo anytime soon. Maybe this weekend if the weather is nice. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #14 April 19, 2004 Not necessarily useful information, but my landings got much better when I downsized from a PD150 to a Sabre2 135. It's smaller and faster, but it's SO much easier to land. It's surprisingly more forgiving to poor flare timing. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 10 #15 April 20, 2004 Craichead The first time I jumped a Stiletto, I thought....These are the perfect student canopy!!! They go exactly were ya point them...or as TK says..."Power Steering,Power Brakes." The problem is people with little experience, or poor judgment(or both) don't always point them in the right direction. This is caused by sensory overload...it sometimes forces the pilot to over compensate or worse give up when confused by pace of the action. You can watch this anytime when someone rides a bike for the first time,or learns to drive,or fly. So my instructor gave me this advice..."You gotta be cool dude!" I would keep jumping the big slow stuff until I felt 100% in control. P.S. If you liked the riser turns on the Sky Barge, just wait 'till you pull toggles on the Sabre2.----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #16 April 20, 2004 Hey there! You have gotten a lot of nice responses here, and I think your idea of trying to get a hold of the Silhouette 210 for a few jumps is a very good one. The Silhouette is a really sweet canopy (I double dog dare you guys that haven't tried it yet to put a jump on it!) - it opens sweet, flies fun and lands beautifully. I'm sure you will do absolutely great on the 190 - my guess is that its handling might be more intuative for you to than the 215 you are currently jumping, but I also think it's a smart step to use the Silhouette 210 as a stepping stone on your way down. Best of luck - and kudos for erring on the safe side :) Blue ones, KollaBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #17 April 20, 2004 The Silhouette is a really sweet canopy (I double dog dare you guys that haven't tried it yet to put a jump on it!) - it opens sweet, flies fun and lands beautifully. I would agree with you Kolla, the Silhouette's got to be one of the most underated canopy out there. Craichead, I have 150 jumps on the saber2 190, and I loaded it at about 1.3 from the start. I don't know anyone who has pounded in more landings than I have. The saber2 does fly at a good clip, and has enough flar that it will pick you back up if you flar too much too soon. I can offer a couple of tips that helped me on this canopy. Pat Works has written a nice article thats worth a read posted under safety. And the advice that helped me the most, when landing keep your hands together in front of your body also once you flar if the canopy picks you up a little bit keep those toggles down you are already committed to landing. I would agree with others that waiting for a specific wind condition to be able to land in is not doing yourself any favors. Good luck blue skies jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #18 April 22, 2004 igot the same chut and wiped out my first landing on it....and the second landing. and i was flying the rental gear right. the sabre 2 is pretty fast compared to basic rental stuff. in my humble opinion, you should take a canopy course. you can survive the 2 mile drop....but its that last foot that gets you. for real it sounds like you should study canopy more. or at the very least read your sim manual and educate yourself about canopy technique. i know i learned alot of things in the sim that my instructors never taught me._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #19 April 22, 2004 If you don't want to wait for the demo from PD, call Manifest or ParaConcepts (the rigging loft responsible for the gear) at Skydive Chicago - the student gear canopies are Sabre 2's that include the 190, 210, 230 and 260._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #20 April 22, 2004 We're probably gonna head out there this Sunday. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #21 April 22, 2004 you dont need to try and get their student gear the rental shop has Saber2s as well Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
