Landing Direction

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Yeah, I know downwinders are supposed to tell the load but they never do.

Not true. I've yet to be on a load where intentional downwinders weren't announced - yes I know it does happen - but I've been on FAR, FAR more loads where the landing direction was established prior to take off because of light and variable conditions only to be met by some smart ass saying "I'm landing into the wind no matter what" and hence another DANGEROUS flag chaser is born.

It has been my experience (and once again I realize this is only my experience and others mileage may vary) but oftentimes experienced (read: good) swoopers have some of the best patterns, and are very good about announcing (and aborting if necessary) unorthordox landing directions.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skydiveguy 0]

I have to agree, that at Jumptown (my home DZ) I thought this was a little extreme to limit it to 2 landing directions.

Keep in mind the landing area in question is limited to C liscense and above jumpers...

But as one of our most experienced instructors pointed out to me last season: "If you are experienced enough to be landing in the experienced landing area.... you should be experienced enough to handle a crosswind/downwind landing."

if you are curious about what this area looks like... http://www.jumptown.com/images/gallery/orange-medium.jpg

The experienced landing area is the small square of dirt at the bottom of the photo... others that want to land differently than the pre-determined direction can land in the middle of the runways and also the area to the upper left of the experienced area in that photo.
Plenty of choices.

To me.... it is the best way to set the landings here since so many people are coming of age/experience in higher perfomance canopy piloting at our young and growing DZ.

my 2 cents.

[JohnRich 4]

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This would be an extremely BAD idea at some drop zones.

For instance, I can think of one drop zone in southern California where the wind can (and does on an almost daily basis) change 180 degrees within the span of a few minutes...

As I said before, the general rule there is to follow the windsock. However, if the windsock is limp, then and only then, would this sign have any meaning.

[JohnRich 4]

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good thread but i cant get over the fact that the sign is incorrect!!!!! and even worse that not one jumper there has ever noticed!!!! how long has that sign been posted?

If you go back and read the original message more closely, you'll see that the sign is *not* posted. It has just been made, brand new, and is only in preparation for mounting. This weekend was the first time anyone had ever seen it - leaning against the wall inside the packing area.

I've talked with the DZ manager, and he says the "E" and "W" directions are reversed intentionally, because of the orientation in which he plans to mount it. He doesn't want an "east" arrow on the sign to contradict the actual "east" direction. I'm not sure exactly where he's going to post it, so I'll wait and see. But he assures me he has this figured out and it will be okay.

[JohnRich 4]

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Problem there is that even if you define the landing direction as only one direction, ever, there will be a guy on one load who is sure that landing downwind is fatal and thus will land into the wind.

My only advice for this situation, is that if you don't like the direction that others are using, then go choose your own direction - BUT (a very big "but") go land somewhere well away from everyone else, so that you don't create a problem.

[dbattman 0]

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Yeah, I know downwinders are supposed to tell the load but they never do.

Not true. I've yet to be on a load where intentional downwinders weren't announced - yes I know it does happen - but I've been on FAR, FAR more loads where the landing direction was established prior to take off because of light and variable conditions only to be met by some smart ass saying "I'm landing into the wind no matter what" and hence another DANGEROUS flag chaser is born.

It has been my experience (and once again I realize this is only my experience and others mileage may vary) but oftentimes experienced (read: good) swoopers have some of the best patterns, and are very good about announcing (and aborting if necessary) unorthordox landing directions.

Blue ones,
Ian

Well, that happens as well. I've been run down a few times already this season by downwinders and I had a few swoopers scream right past me in the normal pattern as well. At many dropzones experienced jumpers are rewarded witha closer landing area and a shorter walk to the hanger. I'm all for that, but I hate seeing someone do a hook right past my canopy.

I liked the patterns out at Elsinore, myself. Experienced area was closer, students farther out, and swoopers had the longest walk where there was the least traffic. Not an option at many places due to space, but I have yet to be on a load where someone said "I'm downwinding the beer-line."

Singling out swoopers wasn't intentional, but my point is that 'first man down' rule sucks when your not jumping a 182.

[ianmdrennan 2]

heh - it's all good, and I do see your point of view

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but I have yet to be on a load where someone said "I'm downwinding the beer-line."

Come on down to Skydive Atlanta some weekend to play. It'd be nice to have you there and I'd be happy to let you know when I plan on downwinding the beer line (I'll be your first!! )

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[relyon 0]

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I've talked with the DZ manager, and he says the "E" and "W" directions are reversed intentionally, because of the orientation in which he plans to mount it. He doesn't want an "east" arrow on the sign to contradict the actual "east" direction. I'm not sure exactly where he's going to post it, so I'll wait and see. But he assures me he has this figured out and it will be okay.

Somewhere (eg. ceiling) such that the viewer is underneath it, looking up?

Bob

[tattoojeff 0]

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I've talked with the DZ manager, and he says the "E" and "W" directions are reversed intentionally, because of the orientation in which he plans to mount it

not to beat a dead horse here but i cant think of any "orientation" to mount a sign in which east would be west and vise versa. no matter how you hang a sign north is stil north

[relyon 0]

Lay on your back looking skyward with your head to the north and feet to the south. The east will be to your left and the west to your right.

Bob

[Squeak 17]

so that will only work if its on SEE through perspex and mounted on the ceiling of the plane or Flight line shed


OR purhaps on the creeper pad ceiling so you can read it whilst creeping a dive

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[tattoojeff 0]

o yeah. thats trippy, thanks.

[jimoke 0]

maybe if it's mounted across from a mirror there will be less confusion


Oke

The ground always, remembers where you are!

[FrogNog 1]

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Here at Kapowsin we have a close in landing area for experienced jumpers and a large student field just across the road. Each load predetermines its landing direction before takeoff, based on the prevailing winds. If, under canopy, you see the winds have changed, you may go over to the student field and land any direction you want. Kind of best of both worlds.

On almost all my few jumps at Kapowsin, the landing direction was chanted from one end of the plane to the other so we all got a reminder before exit. ("Landing up/down the hill.") I liked not having to "figure it out" in the air by watching someone else all the way to touchdown.

(I prefer the student field because it's so large and walking an extra 200 yards doesn't bother me.)

One thing about Kapowsin is they don't usually have people landing continuously all day[1]. So different plans might work for different DZs, e.g.:

* 182s: follow the first one down, unless the entire, huge, 4-person load agrees on something else.

* larger loads, one at a time: determine landing direction on a per-load basis and stick with it. Determination time could be before takeoff, or the pilot could get info from the ground and relay it to the jumpers just before exit.

* continuous multi-large-load bedlam: good luck. A single direction "ever" or "all day" might be called for.

[1] I am not a Kapowsin regular; I'm only saying what I've seen when I was there a few times.

[2] My home DZ is a mostly-182 DZ, and I land at the huge student field anyway right now, so these suggestions are just talk - I don't really have to worry about this issue day to day.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[pajarito 0]

This might have been mentioned already and I didn't read the whole thread. If so, I appologize. As for the sign or arrow posted on the DZ for winds, what if the wind changes 180 degrees from the time the student enters the aircraft. I guess the sign is a good idea for a final briefing to the student but I'd put even more emphasis on teaching the student to watch the wind sock, flag on top of the building, smoke, etc. Not just get it stuck in his/her head that they have to land a certain way.

[ianmdrennan 2]

It was covered a little earlier, but it's pretty much a no brainer on windy day. However, when the winds are light and variable using the windsock causes nothing but problems. On those days, at every dz I've been to, we've had the best success setting the direction before taking off.

I think it's important to have them look at stuff like that (windsocks, smoke, etc) but realize landing WITH THE TRAFFIC is far, far more important than landing into the wind.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[pajarito 0]

Ok...I'll go with that.

[Nightingale 0]

What I was taught at Perris is to try to land into the wind, first person landing sets the pattern, and if you don't like the landing direction, you can pick your own, but just do it way the heck away from everyone else. There's so much open space there that it isn't hard to get out of the way if you need to land elsewhere.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Yeah that sounds like Eloy too. It's a system I like in that it focuses first on getting everyone landing the same direction (downwind or not) or, if alternate areas are available, shifts those not willing to follow the direction to their own little play ground

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JohnRich 4]

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not to beat a dead horse here but i cant think of any "orientation" to mount a sign in which east would be west and vise versa. no matter how you hang a sign north is stil north

I'm wondering about this also, but I'll wait and see how the sign ends up to find out what this is all about. When I see the finished product, I'll post an explanation, if there is one...

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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not to beat a dead horse here but i cant think of any "orientation" to mount a sign in which east would be west and vise versa. no matter how you hang a sign north is stil north

I'm wondering about this also, but I'll wait and see how the sign ends up to find out what this is all about. When I see the finished product, I'll post an explanation, if there is one...

I'm thinking that the sign will be posted so the person reading it is facing south. That way the E, which is on his left, corresponds to east which is also on his left.

[dbattman 0]

Ya know, a better solution would be to have a small aerial of the airport with the jumprun diagramed on it with a dry erase amrker.

We have one out on the busy days and it's pretty clear where to fly.

[JohnRich 4]

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Ya know, a better solution would be to have a small aerial of the airport with the jumprun diagramed on it with a dry erase amrker.

We have that too, inside the building. The sign in the boarding area will be a last-chance warning, in case anyone didn't bother to look at the aerial photo.

[dbattman 0]

Heh- I'm sure that will happen alot. How often does the plane takeoff and someone asks 'What are the winds doing?' I end up doing that now and again myself.

[riggerrob 558]

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It was covered a little earlier, but it's pretty much a no brainer on windy day. However, when the winds are light and variable using the windsock causes nothing but problems. On those days, at every dz I've been to, we've had the best success setting the direction before taking off.

I think it's important to have them look at stuff like that (windsocks, smoke, etc) but realize landing WITH THE TRAFFIC is far, far more important than landing into the wind.

Blue ones,
Ian

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!

I am tired of avoiding people who believe that landing with a gentle crosswind or downwind is inherently fatal.

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE A 4 KNOT CROSSWIND, YOU ARE FLYING THE WRONG CANOPY!