Serious question on ignored advice.

[ianmdrennan 2]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about the amount of good advice that is ignored in skydiving, mostly related to canopy flight but that's my passion so my thoughts naturally drift there.

First of all this isn't a thread to get all worked up over, I'm not trying to stir. In fact I'm trying to understand what drives certain people to certain decisions, even if they're clearly not good ones.

My question to some of the up and coming jumpers is:

Why do you ask for advice on a particular thing and then ignore it?
OR
Why do you not pay any heed to advice given on your choices you're making?

What is it exactly that makes you not listen? Do you think you're better than others, or do you not agree with the advice (and if so please explain).

I'd sincerely appreciate any answers. Maybe therein we'll be able to understand what makes people chose these paths and modify our teaching methods or approaches.

edit: I put this in safety and training because of it's direct impact on the topic. Mods if you feel it's more appropriate somewhere else, my apologies.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[shropshire 0]

Hi Ian.... nice question(s).
<<,Why do you ask for advice on a particular thing and then ignore it? >>
One reason could be that people are trying to find out more about a subject and asking many people & thus getting many answers. Then if someone elses advice, which differs from yours, is acted upon, then it may appear that yours is being igonred.. This might not be the case, it simply appears so at the time.

I guess that maybe you should be proud that someone thought highly of you enough and sought you out to ask for your opinion.
It's really good to seek as much help as possible and then make up your own mind, ...... dont you think?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 2,400]

>Why do you ask for advice on a particular thing and then ignore it?

People often make up their mind about doing something, but desire some reassurance that they are making the right decision. Thus they ask even though they've made up their mind. Also, some see criticism as a personal attack. You say "that might be too high a wing loading at your experience level" and they hear "your canopy skills suck." If they follow your advice they are admitting they suck, and thus must now jump the small canopy to prove they do not suck.

[thelem 0]

If someone gives me advice with a good reason, I'll generally try to follow it, but if someone just says "Do it this way, its better" then I'll often question it, after all, even the experts don't know everything. (eg I now wear gloves in the summer, because one of my old instructors pointed out that they can help to minimize any possible injuries to your hands)

Also, when I was choosing to buy my first canopy, I got advice from several experienced people on what was suitable for me. Most said go with 170, but a couple said to wait a bit or get some experience on something bigger. I went with the 170, because that was what more people thought, and the person who had advised me to get some experience on something bigger is quite a conservative person. If they had thought they were the only person I had asked adivce from, it would appear to them as if I had just ignored their advice, when in fact I hadn't. (actually, I would have put a few jumps on a 190 first, but I couldn't get hold of one to hire).

[kelel01 1]

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Also, when I was choosing to buy my first canopy, I got advice from several experienced people on what was suitable for me. Most said go with 170, but a couple said to wait a bit or get some experience on something bigger. I went with the 170, because that was what more people thought, and the person who had advised me to get some experience on something bigger is quite a conservative person. If they had thought they were the only person I had asked adivce from, it would appear to them as if I had just ignored their advice, when in fact I hadn't. (actually, I would have put a few jumps on a 190 first, but I couldn't get hold of one to hire).

This was my EXACT situation-- of 5-10 instructors polled on my canopy abilities, at 2 different DZ's, 1 said that I shouldn't jump a 170. Now this one probably thinks I don't take advice, because I purchased the 170 anyway. But I was actually heeding the advice of many other very experienced jumpers and instructors that I trusted.

Kelly

[skyyhi 0]

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People often make up their mind about doing something, but desire some reassurance that they are making the right decision. Thus they ask even though they've made up their mind. Also, some see criticism as a personal attack. You say "that might be too high a wing loading at your experience level" and they hear "your canopy skills suck." If they follow your advice they are admitting they suck, and thus must now jump the small canopy to prove they do not suck.

Bill, that was priceless. I definitely have to agree here. Most of the time those that ignore advice. . .whether received here or by instructors at the dz. . .really already have their minds made up what they are going to do anyway. So basically, the y only want you to agree with them. Also some advice is just plain BAD advice. . .and should be ignored or at least reviewed with an instructor who knows you. . .

For instance. . .I weigh 123 lbs. My exit weight with my current rig is 143 lbs. I am currently flying a Sabre 210. I have 72 jumps. I have had advice about downsizing that would make Bill's (and most of my instructors') hair curl. . .Granted this was unsolicited advice but if I listened to this advice I would have been flying a 135 by my 50th jump. Can I fly a 135? probably. Should I fly a 135? probably not.

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[skreamer 1]

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Thus they ask even though they've made up their mind.

And they'll keep asking until someone (anyone ) gives them the answer they were looking for. It doesn't take much for them to feel vindicated either.

Not be be ageist or sexist here, but it does often appear to be young men most at fault (like myself one bad spot and a couple of bad landings ago... ).

[ianmdrennan 2]

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young men most at fault (like myself one bad spot and a couple of bad landings ago... ).

Come on Will. We all know you're an old fart

Keep the answers coming folks. I'm still here. Just listening for now.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Hazarrd 1]

Selective Hearing. I think we all have it.

.-.

[Nightingale 0]

if you ask multiple people, someone's going to have a differing opinion than someone else. sometimes, it doesn't mean the person is ignoring advice, it means they're taking someone else's advice...maybe someone else who's actually seen them fly and land a canopy, rather than just generalizing online.

and you also have the folks who ask and ask til someone tells them what they want to hear.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Ok so we have those who've asked for advice and received it from multiple people and made an informed decision. So what about the others?

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[shropshire 0]

Hi again.

<>

Why would you (automaticaly?) think that they are not listening to you? If I ask a number of people for advice, should I revist all of them after I've made my mind up to explain my self to them?

I guess at the end of the day, it all depends upon the type of advice sought. If it was about the colour of a canopy - who cares? but if it was about down-sizing - um! much more important and then I could see why you may be more miffed.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[ianmdrennan 2]

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but if it was about down-sizing - um! much more important and then I could see why you may be more miffed.

I'm not miffed at all. Just very curious. There are numerous examples of people who are repeatedly told their canopy choices are not good by a good variety of experienced skydivers (once again I'm looking @ canopies but this can be applied to almost anywhere in skydiving) - YET even though 19/20 people tell them they're in over their heads (there's always at least one person who encourages bad decisions) they still ignore the advice. These are the people I'm most interested in getting answers from - not because I want to argue with them but because I want to try and understand what makes them think they know something experienced jumpers don't.

edit: these posts aren't about people listening to "me" per say. Instead they're about ignoring sound advice from a variety of experienced skydivers.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[catfishhunter 1]

Ask alot of questions get alot of answers then make a decision...

Freedom of Choice................


Just because they don't choose your answers doesn't mean they choose the wrong answer just didn't choose yours...

Freedom of Choice................

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[kelel01 1]

There's a problem with your line of questioning . . . I don't think anyone's going to admit to purposely ignoring advice from numerous people, because it will make them look like an idiot. But I think we all know a couple of people you could PM.

Kelly

[ianmdrennan 2]

Yeah I guess you're right, even though my intention wasn't to make them look like an idiot. I guess I won't really get the answers I'm looking for...probably because they're more about human nature than the actual issue at hand.

Meh...was worth a shot, right
Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kelel01 1]

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Meh...was worth a shot, right

Yeah, and it'd be great to know . . . It's just that most people who do that kind of stuff are also very defensive. So, they're not gonna open themselves up to the inevitable flaming that would follow.

Maybe some very experienced jumper who did something stupid "way back when" won't mind explaining what their motives were in the past.
Kelly

[shropshire 0]

Sorry, didn't mean any offence (that's why I used the mild term miffed).



But it's sort of huMAN nature, to think that you're better than you actually are. People see others flying small flast wings, or riding high powered past bikes/cars and aspire to them. If they have the dosh to buy them then they probably will 9/10.
times, regardless of any well intensioned advice. In asking for advice, they are probably seeking confirmation of their already established views, anyway.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

My question to some of the up and coming jumpers is:

Why do you ask for advice on a particular thing and then ignore it?
OR
Why do you not pay any heed to advice given on your choices you're making?

I think the 3 main answers have been covered. I got the sense that some feel the majority are in a single category, I don't think I can agree with that, but your scenario was a bit open ended.

1) They're shopping for an answer they aleady have - ie, downsizing plans.
2) They're getting more than one answer - ie, two out procedures. Person may select by general consensus, option #1, or most compelling via #3.
3) The answer they got was not defended. "I have 3000 jumps over 10 years" is not proof that an answer is good. Anyone answering with that as the primary justification should be prepared to be ignored. This is a life risking sport - a jumper isn't going to just accept a reply that doesn't feel right.

Your second phrasing might have a different answer. When encountering a new situation, people don't always have the time or the memory recall and may make a bad choice.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Maybe some very experienced jumper who did something stupid "way back when" won't mind explaining what their motives were in the past.

I'd hardly qualify as very experienced but at the time I didn't have access to the resources and knowledge that jumpers have today. Had I, I probably would have progressed very differently. But that doesn't count as ignoring advice IMO, rather not being aware of where to seek it out or, as in my case, coming from a small dz in SA where this stuff just wasn't known or really thought about.

For example our "student" progression was to take the student through the static line course using student gear (manta style canopies), have them do a jump on a cruiselight 210 and then if they were heavy put them on a 170 or if they were light put them on a 150. That was pretty much it. The smallest canopy at the dropzone was a 135 and flown by the instructors wife at the time. We had a HUGE landing area (basically a whole airport to ourselves) and only had to worry about 4 jumpers in the air at any given time.

When I came to the states it's was quite different. All of a sudden there was a wealth of knowledge (and plenty of people willing to share it), a ton more people in the air at any given time, etc. I listened, I learned and I was lucky to have some respected skydivers give me good advice.

That said I've seen a fair amount of experienced skydivers give horrible canopy advice because sometimes "we" forget what it's like to fly a 150 for the first time. It's hard to keep that in perspective when flying a sub 100 canopy. Always remember that when someone tells you downsizing is "ok" - look at what they're jumping, how many jumps they have, and remember they may be thinking "it's ok for me", not necessarily "it's ok for you". Not because they intend to give you bad advice, but because their perspective has changed over the years on what's "high performance" and what's not.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kelel01 1]

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That said I've seen a fair amount of experienced skydivers give horrible canopy advice because sometimes "we" forget what it's like to fly a 150 for the first time. It's hard to keep that in perspective when flying a sub 100 canopy. Always remember that when someone tells you downsizing is "ok" - look at what they're jumping, how many jumps they have, and remember they may be thinking "it's ok for me", not necessarily "it's ok for you". Not because they intend to give you bad advice, but because their perspective has changed over the years on what's "high performance" and what's not.

That is a very good point, and something I have never considered. I will keep that in mind if and when I ever look to downsize.

Kelly

[Michele 1]

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I don't think anyone's going to admit to purposely ignoring advice from numerous people, because it will make them look like an idiot

So I'll admit it...but it's not about looking like an idiot.

My situation was I was having serious issues landing the 230. I wanted to jump my own canopy - a 210 - but was terrified to do so because I'd hurt myself (not broken, but really badly bruised) because of problems with landing. Well, not landing, but crashing.

I was given very good advice here, but I got significantly frustrated with what was being said. I got lost in the conversation (it went into the physics of flying...and I can barely understand fractions...) and went off topic.

What happened was that conversation, no matter how frustrating to me that it got, how contentious I got with some of the posters, allowed me to start to know what I didn't know - it allowed me an opportunity to start to see the parameters of what I didn't know.

I ended up taking the canopy control class with Jim Slaton at 40 jumps. I was close to quitting the sport, because I knew (as did others) that I would break if I didn't get some serious intensive coaching.

The first jump at the canopy control class, they stuck me under the 210. Was I nervous? You betcher bottom. Did I evaluate the advice given here, compare it with the person I was getting instruction from, and come to the conclusion that I could do this, with the added ground school designed for Canopy Dummies like me?

Yes...

To some people, I was ignoring advice. To some people, I was the stupidest person on the planet. I frustrated them, as well as myself, with conversations here and at the DZ.

I got agressive and got coaching. I listened hard to the coach who was there, one of the best in the business, and took his advice over all others, because he and I were face to face, he had heard my fears, had addressed them, and, after 4-5 hours, we were really clear on my skill level (bad).

Knowing all this, can you then say I'm an idiot for not listening to the great advice I was given here (not downsizing) and taking the advice from the person I was being coached by, downsizing, and starting to learn what it takes to come back to earth somewhat safely?

Nope. Not an idiot.

I realize that likely I'm not the person your question was directed towards, but it applies, because I was thought of as an idiot for downsizing...and easily could've (and probably was) thought of as "ignoring" advice.

Just my take...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[AggieDave 6]

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Ok so we have those who've asked for advice and received it from multiple people and made an informed decision. So what about the others?

There are also those that will keep asking the same question to many different people, sometimes slightly wording it differently, until they get a different answer. The answer they want to hear.

People don't like getting told that they shouldn't do something, especially the majority of personalities that seem to be previlent in this sport.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

I'm pretty sure that there's one big piece of advice almost every one of us has ignored.

It's a pretty rare case that our parents support or encourage skydiving. For most of us, the very fact that we're skydivers mean that we've ignored an awful lot of advice in getting here.

Some people have ignored a LOT of advice to get where they are, and they sometimes shine for it.

If I listened to every bit of "good advice" I've been given, I wouldn't be in skydiving at all, I wouldn't essentially be in business for myself. I'd have a secure job, in a secure home, with 2 kids, a white picket fence, and a dog named Rover.

Sometimes the smart route isn't the same as the fun route.

Part of being in this sport is choosing who we take advice from. The problem is that we don't have a good way to tell who's advice is good. Often we just chuck it all and figure things out for ourselves.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Nightingale 0]

Same thing happened to me...

I was having all kinds of landing issues with a 260 (my student canopy). My instructors were telling me to downsize. I kept hearing from folks here that downsizing before you can land your current canopy (and do all kind of other tricks with it) is bad.

The thing is... the 260 was too big for me. It was too difficult for me to get an even, smooth flare out of it, because it took too much strength. I had to really muscle it down and had trouble doing it evenly and in one motion. It took me too long, so I lost a lot of the potential flare just because it took me so long to muscle the toggles down. I could do it, but not quickly and not easily. I was wingloading at something like .5 and just couldn't flare the darn thing.

My landings got a heck of a lot better under a slightly smaller canopy. I'm still wingloading at less than 1:1.

The thing is... who should I take canopy advice from? People online who've never seen me fly, or my instructors who've watched almost every landing?

The people here probably thought I was ignoring advice. I wasn't. I was simply taking advice from people who understood my situation and abilities, rather than people who didn't know me.