Sen.Blutarsky 0 #76 September 30, 2005 Quote… the sport has to grow or else it will wither and die … Nah. The well-heeled and the skydiving-as-lifestyle types will always find a way to jump. It’s the middle income strata and the weekenders who have retreated from active skydiving in recent years from my vantage point. QuoteThis is a very serious philosophical question about our sport and where it's headed. USPA is concerned about declining membership and apparently declining participation in skydiving. We should all be concerned about it. The effects of the trends you mention could have a profound impact on the sport, especially if there is a national airspace crisis or a mass skydiving tragedy and government acts on the basis of flawed or biased information about skydiving. But we’re so tiny and fragmented that I doubt we can directly influence the growth or retention of experienced jumpers, or preserve our freedom to self-regulate, at this phase of our history. QuoteAre people just staying away because it's so expensive (it's NEVER been cheap), or are people getting the idea that jumping is just too dangerous ? Neither directly IMHO. Worker productivity and home ownership have surged over the past several years, burdening the middle class with additional responsibilities. The population is aging, and we’ve increased our levels of formal education and also taken on a lot of personal debt. The nation is at war against islamic fundmentalists and natural events. It’s my belief these factors have combined to produce the trends our sport is witnessing, not fuel prices or the dangers of skydiving per se. QuoteBut it discourages and disappoints me to hear people who have personally enjoyed thousands of jumps to say things like "this sport isn't safe", or they don't care if there's any further growth in the sport. What can they say, this sport is inherently dangerous and people will continue to die playing with it even if they don’t commit any mistakes. So it isn’t safe. On the other hand, like you, I want to see the sport grow in terms of the numbers of qualified active jumpers, investments in infrastructure, lobbying power and control over publicity. Ideally we also will be able to self-insure. To this day I don’t understand why in a nation of nearly 300 million people there are only approximately 30,000 “active” skydivers. Certainly there are hundreds of thousands and even millions of Americans who could be interested in skydiving and who are sufficiently fit and possess the requisite judgment to safely participate and contribute their talents and resources towards its betterment. Somehow these people are misperceiving the sport or are being diverted to other sports, or both. I believe USPA could do a lot more to place skydiving on the public radar as something more than a one-shot thrill ride, I would rather see my dues spent on a professional, targeted public awareness campaign than on some of the other projects they’ve been allocated to. QuoteIt will be outlawed, "for our own good", because "it's not safe". Perhaps. But there isn’t much we can really do about it at this phase of our existence as a sport and thus you may as well not worry about events that are beyond your immediate power to control; instead, just find a way to continue jumping that works best for you as an individual. Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glyrenden 0 #77 September 30, 2005 Billvon, I sorry to have offended. hate was too strong of a word. I am very very new to skydiving and reading your post seemed like a "stay out" sign.. quote: "and I have no interest in seeing lots more people join the sport" I respect the fact that you are a teacher, and you contribute so much to your sport. I just want to know will I be welcome to come play too. again my appologies, -j Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #78 September 30, 2005 >I am very very new to skydiving and reading your post seemed like >a "stay out" sign.. Not at all. It's more like no sign at all. We don't need "EVERYONE COME SKYDIVE" signs, and we definitely don't need "stay out" signs. Just an open door, and a welcome to people who decide to walk through it on their own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #79 September 30, 2005 QuoteWe don't need "EVERYONE COME SKYDIVE" signs, and we definitely don't need "stay out" signs. Just an open door, and a welcome to people who decide to walk through it on their own. This is what's KEY here. If our numbers go up, if our numbers go down, so be it. But each jumper should have walked in on their own. We don't need recruitment drives here. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #80 September 30, 2005 This is only a guess, but would it be fair to say that the self will dicision is what makes the bond close in skydiving - all skydivers think alike and have gone through the same training to get there? mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #81 September 30, 2005 Quoteall skydivers think alike You've been around these forums long enough to know that's not true. Just do a search on RSL or not or AAD or not to know that there's always going to be different schools of thought on what the "best" or "safest" way is to do things. And despite attempts by the USPA and other governing bodies to standardize the educational programs, there will always be diversity in training methods through the A license, and once the "formal" training is done, different folks will learn and train in different ways. The bond is that we all skydive. We got there through a whole bunch of different paths, but we're all here. That's about all you can say about skydivers as a whole."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #82 September 30, 2005 QuoteThis is what's KEY here. If our numbers go up, if our numbers go down, so be it. But each jumper should have walked in on their own. We don't need recruitment drives here. Point Break/President Bush AFF events are good ones. People see those, and then decide they can do it too. But we don't need skydivers that have to be convinced to do it. In between are ads along the line of 'if you want to skydive, here's how you can do it.' A radio ad brought me into diving. I was commuting with 3 other guys to Silicon Valley, heard the ad, and said, I'd like to do that sometime. Two other guys in the car said the same, and later that week one found out that an engineer at SGI was teaching a class soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #83 September 30, 2005 Ooops, sorry i made my point very ambigous and confusing - what i meant was that they all share a common interest and roughly all share the same thirst for adventure and living life to the full. Sorry for any confusion,ive never been veyr good at expressing myself clearly without making a muddle of words! Thanks for the correction Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #84 September 30, 2005 I am Brutally honest. I tell them the facts. In matter of fact way. I tell them about deaths (if they ask for specifics) that happened because of what the jumper did or didn't do. Then they usually ask about me personally. If they ask, Aren't worried about one of those things that you can't control? I tell them I do, what I can do. Always look act like the other guy is trying to kill you. If the other guy is doing the same things should be alright. It they are not? QuoteI say (in gest): You gotta go sometime, why wait patiently when you can go kicking and screaming? Only not so much in jest.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #85 September 30, 2005 QuoteBillvon, I sorry to have offended. hate was too strong of a word. I am very very new to skydiving and reading your post seemed like a "stay out" sign.. quote: "and I have no interest in seeing lots more people join the sport" I respect the fact that you are a teacher, and you contribute so much to your sport. I just want to know will I be welcome to come play too. Skydiving - It's not for everyone, but then, it doesn't try to be. People brand new and in love with the sport want the world to know how great it is (it really is a great sport), and in the blush of young love, refuse to admit our sport has any faults. Well, it's got a bunch of faults, many inherent, but I love it just the same. I just now realize that it'll never be more than a fringe activity to the rest of the world. I don't mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerd137 0 #86 October 3, 2005 Quote I had a instructor who said to me once you leave the plane you have committed suicide it's up to you to save your ass, of course this was 10 years ago. David I've heard this a few times myself, during my one year so far in the sport. I've always thought, "Ok, now you're just being melodramatic." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shadowplay 0 #87 October 3, 2005 Death is one thing, injury is another. I know it's difficult to amass but I wish there were better statistics kept on skydiving related injuries. As a student, I've accepted the fact that injuries are probably going to happen if I choose to continue my progression. Just in the past week I've seen people at my DZ talking about torn tendons in knees, bruised tailbones, face lacerations, pulled abdominal muscles, etc. So even if the question doesn't involve death, this is still a risky business. I've heard too many stories of people hurting themselves to the point where they couldn't go to work and didn't have for example suplimental insurance (AFLAC!) to take care of themselves while they healed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #88 October 3, 2005 QuoteDeath is one thing, injury is another. I know it's difficult to amass but I wish there were better statistics kept on skydiving related injuries. As a student, I've accepted the fact that injuries are probably going to happen if I choose to continue my progression. Just in the past week I've seen people at my DZ talking about torn tendons in knees, bruised tailbones, face lacerations, pulled abdominal muscles, etc. So even if the question doesn't involve death, this is still a risky business. I've heard too many stories of people hurting themselves to the point where they couldn't go to work and didn't have for example suplimental insurance (AFLAC!) to take care of themselves while they healed. From an injury standpoint, lots of sports compare to skydiving. Football and dirt bikes have a higher incident of femur breaks/participant than skydiving. Hell, so many people hurt themselves playing tennis it's silly (MCL, achillies, elbows, shoulders). Knees, ankles, shoulders and elbows get trashed playing baseball, softball, basketball, etc. Not too many other sports where you can hit the ground at a perpendicular angle going 120mph though...Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #89 October 3, 2005 QuoteFootball and dirt bikes have a higher incident of femur breaks/participant than skydiving. Considering that I know of no statistical report on skydiving injuries, where did you come up with that statement?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #90 October 3, 2005 USPA member survey: 991 injuries reported for 2004 http://www.uspa.org/about/images/memsurvey04.pdf Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #91 October 3, 2005 That doesnt say much about femur rates.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #92 October 3, 2005 It doesn't say anything about femur rates. Injuries could be anything from muscle strain, sprained wrist/ankle, getting kneed in the face or rib turning points, fractured vertebrae from hard openings and busted femurs. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #93 October 3, 2005 According to the 2004 USPA stats, less than 3% of skydivers were injured last year. I have read studies where each year 4% of NCAA football players will hurt their ACL...and that is JUST the ACL. I have also read where the average NFL team has 2 broken femurs a year. 2 femur breaks among an 80 man roster is a 2.5% chance of breaking your femur...just your femur. Motocross...everybody breaks somethingGet in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #94 October 3, 2005 QuoteAccording to the 2004 USPA stats, less than 3% of skydivers were injured last year. I have read studies where each year 4% of NCAA football players will hurt their ACL...and that is JUST the ACL. I have also read where the average NFL team has 2 broken femurs a year. 2 femur breaks among an 80 man roster is a 2.5% chance of breaking your femur...just your femur. Motocross...everybody breaks something You are using Pro and Semi Pro stats agaisnt recreational stats. IMO not really valid.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #95 October 3, 2005 Since you feel like splitting hairs, I believe being anything other than an "amatuer" status disqualifies you from NCAA competition...so semi-pro is incorrect. Then again, if we go to high school stats, then we are talking about minors, which would pretty much negate any correlation to skydiving because for the most part minors can't skydive in the US. And are the USPA stats only recreational stats? Or do camera flyers, Instructors, Tandem masters, 4 way teams and other "pro" skydivers get included?Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #96 October 3, 2005 Here's a link for you Remster - http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/specialreports/specialnfl/s_291033.html A little report compiled on the NFL...see the NFL has to report all injuries because of workmens comp. rules. Some quotes: QuoteIn the 2000 through the 2003 seasons, NFL players racked up 6,558 injuries. More than half the athletes are hurt annually, with the number spiking at 68 percent in 2003-04, according to the NFL's weekly injury reports. QuoteTwo out of three cornerbacks and safeties suffer injuries in the NFL annually, and half of those will suffer a second, unrelated injury before the Super Bowl. Quote During typical four-year careers, one of every 10 NFL receivers experiences a concussion. On average, seven pro football players a week face potentially life-altering head, spine or neck trauma. Quote No position is immune from the violence. One of every five kickers and 14 percent of all punters get hurt annually, suffering high rates of wrist, heel and leg injuries. Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #97 October 3, 2005 Thats the great things with Stats.... You can try and compare apples and oranges....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #98 October 3, 2005 LOL... WhateverGet in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #99 October 3, 2005 QuoteI have also read where the average NFL team has 2 broken femurs a year. 2 femur breaks among an 80 man roster is a 2.5% chance of breaking your femur...just your femur. somewhere out there must be an NFL team called the 'Femurs.' sorry, I can't believe the average team gets 2 a year - I can't recall the last one that happened. I know it has, but no names pop out at me, which would be expected if the 49ers and Raiders were likely to get 4 per season. Concussions are a different matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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nerd137 0 #86 October 3, 2005 Quote I had a instructor who said to me once you leave the plane you have committed suicide it's up to you to save your ass, of course this was 10 years ago. David I've heard this a few times myself, during my one year so far in the sport. I've always thought, "Ok, now you're just being melodramatic." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadowplay 0 #87 October 3, 2005 Death is one thing, injury is another. I know it's difficult to amass but I wish there were better statistics kept on skydiving related injuries. As a student, I've accepted the fact that injuries are probably going to happen if I choose to continue my progression. Just in the past week I've seen people at my DZ talking about torn tendons in knees, bruised tailbones, face lacerations, pulled abdominal muscles, etc. So even if the question doesn't involve death, this is still a risky business. I've heard too many stories of people hurting themselves to the point where they couldn't go to work and didn't have for example suplimental insurance (AFLAC!) to take care of themselves while they healed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #88 October 3, 2005 QuoteDeath is one thing, injury is another. I know it's difficult to amass but I wish there were better statistics kept on skydiving related injuries. As a student, I've accepted the fact that injuries are probably going to happen if I choose to continue my progression. Just in the past week I've seen people at my DZ talking about torn tendons in knees, bruised tailbones, face lacerations, pulled abdominal muscles, etc. So even if the question doesn't involve death, this is still a risky business. I've heard too many stories of people hurting themselves to the point where they couldn't go to work and didn't have for example suplimental insurance (AFLAC!) to take care of themselves while they healed. From an injury standpoint, lots of sports compare to skydiving. Football and dirt bikes have a higher incident of femur breaks/participant than skydiving. Hell, so many people hurt themselves playing tennis it's silly (MCL, achillies, elbows, shoulders). Knees, ankles, shoulders and elbows get trashed playing baseball, softball, basketball, etc. Not too many other sports where you can hit the ground at a perpendicular angle going 120mph though...Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #89 October 3, 2005 QuoteFootball and dirt bikes have a higher incident of femur breaks/participant than skydiving. Considering that I know of no statistical report on skydiving injuries, where did you come up with that statement?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #90 October 3, 2005 USPA member survey: 991 injuries reported for 2004 http://www.uspa.org/about/images/memsurvey04.pdf Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #91 October 3, 2005 That doesnt say much about femur rates.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #92 October 3, 2005 It doesn't say anything about femur rates. Injuries could be anything from muscle strain, sprained wrist/ankle, getting kneed in the face or rib turning points, fractured vertebrae from hard openings and busted femurs. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #93 October 3, 2005 According to the 2004 USPA stats, less than 3% of skydivers were injured last year. I have read studies where each year 4% of NCAA football players will hurt their ACL...and that is JUST the ACL. I have also read where the average NFL team has 2 broken femurs a year. 2 femur breaks among an 80 man roster is a 2.5% chance of breaking your femur...just your femur. Motocross...everybody breaks somethingGet in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #94 October 3, 2005 QuoteAccording to the 2004 USPA stats, less than 3% of skydivers were injured last year. I have read studies where each year 4% of NCAA football players will hurt their ACL...and that is JUST the ACL. I have also read where the average NFL team has 2 broken femurs a year. 2 femur breaks among an 80 man roster is a 2.5% chance of breaking your femur...just your femur. Motocross...everybody breaks something You are using Pro and Semi Pro stats agaisnt recreational stats. IMO not really valid.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #95 October 3, 2005 Since you feel like splitting hairs, I believe being anything other than an "amatuer" status disqualifies you from NCAA competition...so semi-pro is incorrect. Then again, if we go to high school stats, then we are talking about minors, which would pretty much negate any correlation to skydiving because for the most part minors can't skydive in the US. And are the USPA stats only recreational stats? Or do camera flyers, Instructors, Tandem masters, 4 way teams and other "pro" skydivers get included?Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #96 October 3, 2005 Here's a link for you Remster - http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/specialreports/specialnfl/s_291033.html A little report compiled on the NFL...see the NFL has to report all injuries because of workmens comp. rules. Some quotes: QuoteIn the 2000 through the 2003 seasons, NFL players racked up 6,558 injuries. More than half the athletes are hurt annually, with the number spiking at 68 percent in 2003-04, according to the NFL's weekly injury reports. QuoteTwo out of three cornerbacks and safeties suffer injuries in the NFL annually, and half of those will suffer a second, unrelated injury before the Super Bowl. Quote During typical four-year careers, one of every 10 NFL receivers experiences a concussion. On average, seven pro football players a week face potentially life-altering head, spine or neck trauma. Quote No position is immune from the violence. One of every five kickers and 14 percent of all punters get hurt annually, suffering high rates of wrist, heel and leg injuries. Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #97 October 3, 2005 Thats the great things with Stats.... You can try and compare apples and oranges....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #98 October 3, 2005 LOL... WhateverGet in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #99 October 3, 2005 QuoteI have also read where the average NFL team has 2 broken femurs a year. 2 femur breaks among an 80 man roster is a 2.5% chance of breaking your femur...just your femur. somewhere out there must be an NFL team called the 'Femurs.' sorry, I can't believe the average team gets 2 a year - I can't recall the last one that happened. I know it has, but no names pop out at me, which would be expected if the 49ers and Raiders were likely to get 4 per season. Concussions are a different matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
