Women's Class

[skykittykat 0]

Since the separate Womens' class was created and the sport has evolved, what do you all think about the Womens' Class?

To compete in the Womens' class should it include a camera flyer who is female? The rules have changed in that after a cut of date, an all female team includes the camera flyer as well.

Do you think that this cut off date should have been in place before now? I think it should have been.

I know pleny of female camera flyers - eg, Russian 8-way team has a female camera flyer and the British Army 4-way team has one, to name 2, not including the women camera flyers at the US Nationals.

Personally, since the women's class was created, enough women have come through the ranks who are top "Open" class flyers and there are more and more women camera flyers. The Womens' class at that time gave women a springboard to go higher. Today, women don't necessarily need that springboard to join the "boys" - their skill and talent shows through enough.

I understand that when the rule was passed to allow the womens' class to have a male camera flyer until the cut off date was to allow more women to hone their skills as camera flyers, but at the time, there were women camera flyers out there that could do the job. Those that were learning would certainly have been ready for this year's World Cup.

I think that the sport has evolved enough not to have a womens' class at world level now. Lisa Aune, Eliana Rodriguez, Natasha Montgomery, Arianna de Bennedetti, Elena and Alona from Russia, (sorry, don't know how to spell your last names!!!) - all are top level skydivers and kick ass over most male skydivers.

One other point is that, and I will probably get flamed for saying this.... As a female team, what is the goal? To win Gold in the Female Class reaching a certain average which is way less than the "Open" Class or should you aim for the average that the "Open" Class are going for?

I am not dissing what female teams have done, but I think it is time for equality. If there is going to be an all female class, then all teams should be all female, including the camera flyer - and the cut off date should be cancelled as of now.

Liz

[Beverly 1]

You have some valid points and you are right, we have some awesome women flyers.

About 15% of most countries skydivers are female. It is not a lot.
Some don't want to compete, so the pool is then smaller.

My vote for the women's class is to get more people to compete in this male dominated sport.
It was my opportunity to compete at a world level and I am grateful for it.

There is only one team from each country that gets to go to the world meet, so a female class allows for more people to be exposed to this, which is awesome.

With regards to the points and aims of the teams, they all are aiming for what the open teams are getting - I promise you. But most of them don't get the funding and sponsorships that the open teams get. (Ok our country get's nothing), but for e.g, Norway pays for one team and one team only.

If they can get together and compete and do well, great. If they strive to get the 23 average, awesome.
They do what they can.

I am keen to see a female category in Canopy Piloting, as weight and wingloading plays a role on the female form. (And no, I don't want to eat more burgers to have a more competitive wing loading)

On the female camera thing, it is getting more girls to compete on this level by forcing them to have female camera which is good.
I definately support that.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[popsjumper 2]

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...On the female camera thing, it is getting more girls to compete on this level by forcing them to have female camera which is good.
I definately support that.

I'm opposed.
All female team is OK, I suppose, but restricting that to include camera is not going to improve things for those teams...what about the ladies teams who cannot get a good female camera?

We all currently have the option of male/female camera - and that's a good thing.

Equality in the Open class? Open is open regardless of gender, right? Sounds like to me that you are complaining that women can't compete with men in the air so they need their own classification...I don't go along with that. Numbers of male vs female is one thing...flying skill is quite another.

But then again, I may be wrong and missing the point entirely.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

I see a lot of 4way names here, but I'm sure it also applies in the other disciplines.

personally? I don't think a separate class is necessary BUT:

1 - It allows us to send another team to represent our country at world meets. That means more top level skydivers get international experience and exposure.

2 - An all women team can choose to compete in Open if they want. Also, any individual woman could try out for a top team and get in, too. In fact, the VERY top women are doing just that, anyway. So if they want to be the best, they shouldn't have to worry about gender - either way - and they don't. A woman is not forced to only compete in women's.

3 - This is touchier. I think a great skydiving role model for new skydivers should be chosen on attitude and skill alone. Not gender. But there are many women still today that can't have a male as a sports role model (I think vice versa too, sad but true) - no matter how cool or skillful they are. As such, if they must discriminate in a gender way, having women's teams at least gives these individuals more people to emulate. A woman's class can provide that group of role models. Personally, I have skydiving role models of both genders and have no issues with that - but not everyone is that way.

I think it's cool that certain women have reached an advanced skill level and found themselves drawn into the top teams. It means they don't HAVE to find 3 other women (and a camerawoman) just to compete. They are pursued because of their skills and attitude - then they go with their TEAMMATES and win international level competitions. {{Congrats Fire, Congrats Airspeed}}

Here's a sport that doesn't discriminate at the VERY TOP levels. It's a good thing. Not many other sports can say that? No one here will ever say pretty good "for a man" or pretty good "for a woman" - we say that was a hot skydive and damn good skydivers more often.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PhreeZone 15]

How many all women teams were at this years Nationals? I remember 2 in Open, but can not recall any in advanced. I know there were 3 or so in Intermediate, but they were not up for a slot to the world so I don't think any of them had female camera flyers.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rehmwa 2]

I saw 6 (best guess) total on omniscore, but I think Select was the only one with a female camera flyer. But a LOT of mixed teams. Which is way cooler. FWIW

OPEN
-synch
-select (female camera)
-element

ADV
-.....

INT
-Billie's
-SDC Furies
-Sirens

It's way too hard around here to get a good team together, restricting your choices to a single gender is just a waste of good talent.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bob.dino 0]

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Today, women don't necessarily need that springboard to join the "boys" - their skill and talent shows through enough.

Remove the 'necessarily' from your sentence and I'll agree with you.

At my level - Intermediate - there are currently five 4-way teams at my DZ. That's 20 people excluding camera flyers. 6 are female, and gender doesn't appear to be an issue with respect to their ability. Many of them can outfly me with their eyes closed, so why would they need a separate class? To protect my fragile ego?

That said, I'm not female, and I think the decision on whether there should be a separate class for women should ultimately lie with the female of the species.

[ccowden 0]

I wish people would just take it for what it is. It is when it is viewed as a negative thing that people have issues with it. Having a womens class in anything is great. It simply give more women the platform in which to compete.

Otherwise, let's take away all womens classes and only have one class, one league, one world record. Instead of the PGA and LPGA, we will just have a Pro Golf Circuit. Instead of having an NBA and a WNBA, just one Basketball Association. Only one World Record, not a men's and women's.

If this was the case, very few women would have a chance to compete and participate in these things. Could some? Sure. But what we are talking about here is having classes and such that give more women a chance to participate.

Having a womens class is a GOOD thing. If women want to compete inthe open, then by all means. But having a seperate class is a step forward, not a step back or discrimination.

[RedassSkychic 0]

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Otherwise, let's take away all womens classes and only have one class, one league, one world record. Instead of the PGA and LPGA, we will just have a Pro Golf Circuit. Instead of having an NBA and a WNBA, just one Basketball Association. Only one World Record, not a men's and women's.

The difference between those sports and ours is that strength plays a much smaller role in skydiving than it does in basketball or soccer, etc. Also, height, weight and other body characteristics that seem to be different (in general) between males and females don't play as much of a role when you get in the air. This evens the playing field and gender truly doesn't matter, something I can't say for other sports.

just wanted to point that out, not debate the issue

[skykittykat 0]

It's interesting seeing other peoples' points of view on this, especially the poll results.

I must admit to have been a bit naughty in playing Devil's Advocate in my original post

Liz

[Conundrum 1]

I've never seen the point in "Women's" anything in any sport.

[kelel01 1]

If there were no WNBA, there would be no women playing professional basketball - or maybe 1 or 2. Is it fair that because men have a biological advantage that they should dominate every professional sport?

Men's and women's gymnastics are also separated, but that's because they play to the different talents of each sex. And the men do more difficult tumbling and vaults. Would it be fair (or even make sense) to put them together?

Now, skydiving is a much more level (possible even totally level) playing field. But to say that the sexes should never be separated in sports is . . . silly.

Edited for clarity.

[rehmwa 2]

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But to say that the sexes should never be separated in sports is . . . silly.

K - you know the rules. Bring the sexes together, then take them apart, then bring them together, then take them apart - repeat as necessary.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

In skydiving, I do not think we need a women's class. Everyone is on an equal playing field in the sky.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ccowden 0]

Really? Are you serious?

Like Kel said, if there was no WNBA, almost no women would be playing pro basketball. With no LPGA, almost no women would have a career in golf. Same for soccer, tennis, beach volleyball, hockey, running, bowling, cycling, etc, etc.

Not only pro sports either. If in high school and college there were no men's ans women's sports and only sports, then the teams would only be comprised of the best athletes as far as speed, strength and abilities. If everyone is measured against each other, then almost no women would play organized sports.

Womens sports and classes within sports is awesome! It is a step forward, not a step back. It would be a huge step back for women if organized and pro sports eliminated womens sports and classes.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Like Kel said, if there was no WNBA, almost no women would be playing pro basketball. With no LPGA, almost no women would have a career in golf. Same for soccer, tennis, beach volleyball, hockey, running, bowling, cycling, etc, etc.

All physical sports where 99% of the cases there's a limiting strength issue.

In skydiving that is non-existent IMO. "Womans" classes in this sport are entirely unnecessary. I know of plenty of hot shit swoopers, rw and FF'ers. No need to springboard anyone...certainly not anymore.

Hell at our DZ there are just as many, if not more, female skydivers...and yes, life is good
Blues.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[ccowden 0]

This is my point exactly. You are viewing it as saying that women NEED their own class. That they CAN'T compete with the men. That is NOT what I am saying. I am not, in any way, putting down womens abilities as skydivers. I agree with you wholeheartedly that they kick ass.

I agree totally that women in skydiving can compete just as well as the men. It is not about a "springboard" or an added advantage. It is about bringing more women into competition. You take away womens classes and less women will compete, plain and simple.

Under your theory, we should take away the womens vertical world record. Take away the womens formation record. After all, they don't "need" the springboard. Women are on the regular world records of both of these, so why a womens world record? Because it gives more women the chance to be part of something like that and makes major gains for our sport. It encourages more women to go for it.

Adding womens classes, competitions and records has greatly improved our sport. And we should continue to add more.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Under your theory, we should take away the womens vertical world record. Take away the womens formation record.

Negative, Ghostrider I view it in the same light as an all men, or all deaf or all 'X' record. A group of people with something in common setting a record. Your example happens to be a womans record. It could be any record. I think those are perfectly fine.

When it comes to competition, though, I have a different opinion. There, IMO, the categories should be seperated by skill alone - not gender, race, height, eye color or anything else.

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It is about bringing more women into competition. You take away womens classes and less women will compete, plain and simple.

I hold my same argument about 9 cell canopy competitions to this argument too. You shouldn't need a special class to compete (in skydiving). You either compete in your skill level or you don't. Continuing to segregate and seperate at every opportunity drives competion down IMO. You get a small select group competing against themselves instead of a larger group with more people to learn from.

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Adding womens classes, competitions and records has greatly improved our sport. And we should continue to add more.

Agreed

On a side note - I'm expecting a call from you any day now.....let us know day/night anytime
Blues.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[ccowden 0]

In a perfect world, your ideas hold up. But in this world, alot more women will compete if they have a seperate class. If that is bringing your beloved competition "down" then I guess we disagree.

The women who are comfortable enough to compete in the open classes are more than welcome and I think it is awesome. But the only thing that adding womens classes does is make it so more women feel comfortable and want to compete.

You add a womens class to swooping and more women would be inclined to compete. From there they can decide to move to the open class when they want to.

Anytime more women get involved in competition, it is a good thing.

[Ron 7]

I didn't like your poll options, so I didn't vote.

Women do not need a special class in skydiving. Women have shown that they can be the best no matter what sex they compete against.

Eliana, Natasha ect have shown that sex matters not in skydiving.

I think a womans class is not needed. I do however think that as long as the IPC supports a class the US should send a team...And that team should win. The USPA has done just about everything to destroy a womans class. Its a shame really. I don't like the womans class, prefering to judge off of raw averages, but as long as the IPC has the class the US should field a team, and the USPA should support them.

If the woman are going to have a team the Video person should HAVE to be female as well. Why not? If the idea of a womans class is to provide females the opportunity to compete (which I think they have anyway) then why not allow female videograpers the same chance?

If you allow male video folks for the female class I wonder if you really feel like its supporting women.

Cause if you don't make the class have female video folks...Then you are in fact contradicting yourself.

You claim they are not many skilled female video folks (I have been told this by the IPC) I say Bullshit. Lew for example kicks ass. And is not the whole reason of a female class to encourage females to compete? Does that not include getting females up to speed on video as well?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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I do however think that as long as the IPC supports a class the US should send a team...

As long as the international community forces their obsolete sexist viewpoint on us, we should follow?

(Agreed - an opportunity to get more people into international level competition has to be a good thing overall)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[brierebecca 0]

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You add a womens class to swooping and more women would be inclined to compete. From there they can decide to move to the open class when they want to.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. This is because competititon is not just about competing. It's about the fellowship. And the opportunity to meet other female swoopers would be another factor in my decision to compete. It goes the same with female competition. The women in this sport are amazing, and I'd jump at the opportunity to attend a women's event.

As for the female teams with the male camera flyer, I'd disagree that it's truly a female team, especially for freefly or 4-way VRW. The camera slot is just as hard, and just as crucial, as the other slots on the team.

just my two cents.

Brie

"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie

[ntacfreefly 0]

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It's about the fellowship.

How do you plan on attaining fellowship with segregation?

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And the opportunity to meet other female swoopers would be another factor in my decision to compete.

There are female swoopers now that are competing(there were some at the CPC finals). Next year I expect there will be more.

It's as inclusive as YOU make it But chosing to sit on the sidelines only isolates yourself - no one else.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[ccowden 0]

Oh shut up! You are just mad cuz Brie agrees with me!

Love ya Brie!

[rehmwa 2]

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The women in this sport are amazing, and I'd jump at the opportunity to attend a women's event.

The people in this sport can be amazing as individuals (and some really not so much) - does gender really play in it?

Of course, now my mind is flooding with the little bunny foo foo t-shirt statements.......

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants