Exit Altitudes and World Records

[ccowden 0]

I read that the exit altitudes for the 400-way attempts may reach 25,000 feet. This got me thinking. Should there be a limit to altitude for records? Maybe a record for under 15,000 feet, under 20,000 feet, under 30,000 feet?

I mean, I totally understand that the world record is for largest formation in freefall with no limit on altitude, but doesn't it seem like a 200-way from say, 15,000 feet, is a whole different record than a 400-way from 25,000 feet?

I am not trying to debate whether the use of more altitude makes a 400-way any less amazing. I was just thinking about the difference in records and the difference in difficulty from under certain exit altitudes.

Kinda like how turning points is judged on a set working time. Yes, I know that they are two entirely different things and the formation record is simply, most people in a formation with no limits, so please don't argue that point. But just like you cannot really compare turning 15 points in 35 seconds to turning 25 points in 60 seconds, isn't it also hard to compare one formation built from 15,000 feet to one built from 20,000 feet and so on?

Just curious what other people think.

[RossDagley 0]

Agree on all points - gotta be like for like (within 'limits'). I can turn 10 points or so. But I bet you I could turn 20 from 25,000 feet

[ltdiver 3]

Ever think that break off might come at a higher altitude as well? Working time might just be the same, but the break off is higher for the 400-way vs the 200-way.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Taylor610 0]

I am not trying to debate whether the use of more altitude makes a 400-way any less amazing. I was just thinking about the difference in records and the difference in difficulty from under certain exit altitudes.
***
I will say you have opened the door to a valid argument. The 246-way in 98 was done from 19,500 using 14 planes in formation. That would seem to be a bit more of a feat the subsequent record which was done from a much higher altitude using only 3 or 4 planes.

The actual "working time" is what they base most "competition scores" on. It only makes sense to me that these records be put into categories that will represent the level of difficulty of the dive.

I do however agree that regardless of the altitude, 400-way...WOW!

[ccowden 0]

I am sure it will be a bit higher break off, but not almost 5,000 feet higher.

Again, I am not arguing that putting 400 people together in freefall is anything but absolutley amazing. This has nothing to do with whether or not a 400-way from 25,000 feet will be a world record or whether it is an outstanding accomplishement. I am just saying that there is a huge difference from one record to another, based on exit altitudes and use of planes, which makes me wonder if the records are comparing apples to apples.

Does it really matter? Nope. Just wondering what people think of putting limits on certain formation records now so there is more of a fair comparison.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

This is something I've wondered about too... in terms of "how compliant" with O2 requirements have past and future (planned) world record attempts been wiht the BSR, FARs (if the jump is in the USA) and just plain common sense.

I hope I get this right... but as I recall, the rules on O2 go something like:

Sea Level to 15,000ft MSL:
Supplemental oxygen on board aircraft. Use above 10,000ft MSL, whenever elapsed time above 8,000ft MSL is expected to exceed 30 minutes.

15,000ft MSL to 20,000ft MSL:
Use supplemental oxygen on board aircraft above 8,000ft MSL until exit. A Constant Flow O2 Mask and Continuous Flow O2 source is required on board the aircraft. A bail-out bottle is not required for freefall. A Phisological Flight Training course is recommended.

20,000ft MSL to 33,000ft MSL:
I get a little sketchy on the rules here... but a Diluter Demand Mask & Diluter Demand on board O2 source is required... hopefully someone can explain that... and, the big foot stoper, a bailout bottle is requred for freefall... i.e. you switch from the on board O2 source to a bailout bottle for O2 supply in freefall. Phisological Flight Training is recommended as is a training jump with full O2 gear in freefall from below 15,000ft MSL.

33,000ft MSL and above:
You get into the zone of Positive Presure breathign systems Presure Suits (above 40K)... etc. IMO, sport jumps from this altitude are unlikely.


Anyway... my point... I'd like to know if a world record attempt is really going to be made from 25,000ft, will all the participants be on masks and bailout bottles or not? Training jump from below 15K with all O2 equipment first? Also, now I know what a lot of people do, but sounds like just "sucking on a tube" when you get above 15K, but below 20K, isn't quite right?

I wish I would have learned more when they were doing High Altitude jumps at Apple Valley Skydive years ago.


Anyway... another point... one of my buddies always brings up on this topic is that "back in the day" supposedly there was a 60 second working time limit on big-way world records... ?

[chuteless 1]

Ive been to 36916 ft, using a console in the aircraft, and a small bail out bottle during 2 1/2 minutes of freefall. Opened at 2000.

Anything higher than 38,000 should have a partial pressure suit, and over 42K a full pressure suit.

I did take a chamber ride to 43000 ft, without any pressure suit, but that was also in very controlled conditions.

Bill Cole D-41

[Taylor610 0]

I am just saying that there is a huge difference from one record to another, based on exit altitudes and use of planes, which makes me wonder if the records are comparing apples to apples.

Does it really matter? Nope.
***
That I do disagree with. I personally believe that it does matter. The altitude, the number of planes, are both HUGE contributors to the ease of the record. The day before the 246-way World Record was set, a 259-way formation was built and held for 2.2 seconds. (It has to be held for 3 seconds to be a record) If that attempt had been done from just 500' higher, that would have been the record. Altitude, number of planes, and working time should all be looked at as a part of the equation.

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

(It has to be held for 3 seconds to be a record)

Not anymore.

[ccowden 0]

Quote

I am just saying that there is a huge difference from one record to another, based on exit altitudes and use of planes, which makes me wonder if the records are comparing apples to apples.

Does it really matter? Nope.
***
That I do disagree with. I personally believe that it does matter. The altitude, the number of planes, are both HUGE contributors to the ease of the record. The day before the 246-way World Record was set, a 259-way formation was built and held for 2.2 seconds. (It has to be held for 3 seconds to be a record) If that attempt had been done from just 500' higher, that would have been the record. Altitude, number of planes, and working time should all be looked at as a part of the equation.

Oh, I agree it certainly matters in that context. More altitude gives you more working time. I meant it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things to me.

[Taylor610 0]

Not anymore.
***

Could you please help me out with that. I have not been able to find anything showing the change you are refering too.

[JeffD 0]

More altitude = less air
Less air = oxygen issue, higher fall rates, etc...

Now add the fact that the last jumpers from the planes will have to catch up to an already fast moving target with less control (less air for the jumper to use to fly).

I was once told by a reliable source that when they attempted big ways (~100) if they went to 20k it would fumble by 18k, but when they started lower it was better.

I dont think being "higher" makes it any easier but actually complicates it even more.

[gulaz 1]

Quote

20,000ft MSL to 33,000ft MSL:
I get a little sketchy on the rules here... but a Diluter Demand Mask & Diluter Demand on board O2 source is required... hopefully someone can explain that...

A diluter demand regulator dilutes they oxygen supplied to the mask with air from the cabin. This air enters the regulator through the inlet air valve and passes around the air-metering valve. At low altitude, the air inlet passage is open and the passage to the oxygen demand valve is restricted so the user gets mostly air from the cabin. As the aircraft goes up in altitude, the barometric control bellows expands and opens the oxygen passage while closing off the air passage. At an altitude of around 34 000 feet, the air passage is completely closed off, and every time the user inhales, pure oxygen is metered to the mask.

Straight out of A&P Technician Airframe textbook. It should clear up what a diluter demand o2 source is.

[darkwing 4]

I'd like to hear some debate, but my current view is that there should be a ceiling, and my vote is for 20,000 ft. I'd even be willing for it to be lower. I also would consider a working time limit. Didn't there used to be an FAI-imposed limit on either altitude or working time?

I do think it dilutes the accomplishment to just keep doing it from higher altitudes (not to say that it isn't quite an accomplishment!) Going from 25,000 feet is crazy. Premature openings can become lethal at that altitude. But that isn't central to my reasons for wanting a cap on altitude.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[ccowden 0]

Well shoot, I didn't think about it "fumbling."

You might want to do a little more research and gain a bit more knowledge before you post information like this. And I would definitely check your "reliable source."

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Not anymore.
***

Could you please help me out with that. I have not been able to find anything showing the change you are refering too.

I thought the FAI required at least 3 seconds for validation purposes.

As for the original post, there's some validity to that argument, although the working time doesn't change that significantly since the breakoff altitude rises as the formation gets bigger.

However, I do remember Sandy Wambach telling me one day that there was a 100 way that completed from 12,000 feet... Now that there is one helluva achievement, no doubt only possible with the very best jumpers. I just don't remember any other details about it.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[MakeItHappen 15]

There used to be a short-lived 60 second rule. That is the formation had to be built within 60 seconds of the first person exiting.

The 1981 64-way at Perris was not FAI recognized because it took 63 seconds to build. The rule was dropped by 1983 because it was impossible to see exits from all planes simultaneously.

FMI see World Record History

As the formation size increases the exit altitude has to get higher in order to ensure safe break-offs at the bottom end.

One thing about the break-offs is that they will probably change to have several outside or middle wave people pull in place at the same time the 'standard' center person pulls. This probably won't happen this time around, but it will eventually happen. The formations are huge with enough separation between the center person and say the people in the first row of wackers (on a WT or 300-way type formation). If these people used rounds or low WLs then you could get even more people to pull in place and still have adequate separation. You could even use this on the second wave. Of course it works best for a complete or nearly complete formation. Funnels or out of place people would make the BO revert to the standard track at such-n-such altitude.

The 144-way diamond did have two outside corner people pulling at break-off.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

Could you please help me out with that. I have not been able to find anything showing the change you are refering too.

The relevant part of the FAI Sporting code is Chapter 3 (WORLD RECORDS - CLASS G (Parachuting)) Sub-Chapter 3 (Performance Records) 3.3.3 Largest Formation records

There is no mention of time limits in the 2005 Edition (page 7)

Quote

(1) The record performance for the largest formation is the number of persons in one formation. One
written plan describing the formation to be attempted and the personnel involved must be submitted
in advance to the judges. The formation must be complete as described with all named personnel in
the formation.

but there is in the 2002 edition

Quote

(1) The record performance for the largest formation is the number of persons in one formation. One written plan describing the formation to be attempted and the personnel involved must be submitted in advance to the judges. The formation must be completed as described with all named personnel in the formation, and it must be held for at least three seconds for Formation Skydiving record attempts and five seconds
for Canopy Formation records.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[JeffD 0]

Well I said "They" as in from his experience the formation had less problems when "They" exited lower.

I thought I'd bring relavent experience to help expand on the topic.

[billvon 2,400]

>I read that the exit altitudes for the 400-way attempts may reach 25,000 feet.

One jump for the 300-way went to 26,000 feet.

>But just like you cannot really compare turning 15 points in 35
>seconds to turning 25 points in 60 seconds, isn't it also hard to
>compare one formation built from 15,000 feet to one built from
>20,000 feet and so on?

If that's what's important to you, sure. We already have all-women bigway records, state bigway records, Cessna bigway records, and big-O records. If you wanted to go for a 15,000 foot bigway record, go for it!

Overall, increased altitudes bring pluses and minuses. You are cutting it very close with oxygen saturation levels and decompression times, and your odds of an O2 system malfunction affecting the dive goes up tremendously. So in some ways going to 25K makes the skydive considerably harder than one from 15K.

I think there will always be a desire for 'biggest.' As a subset of that, there are plenty of opportunities for 'biggest under X condition.'

[BigSky 2]

Just my .02c but I agree with what you are saying. I think that the record should be broke into classes. You could still have an open class for unlimited planes and altitude and then under 20,000, under 10,000 and so on.

The one I would really like to see is world record under 3,000

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[ccowden 0]

My point is that you should check out your sources, because there is absolutley no way that there is a big enough difference in "how much air" and "how much control" jumpers have to use between 18,000 and 20,000 feet where it would make building a formation harder or easier.

If they were having trouble building a formation from 20,000 feet and thought by moving it down to 18,000 feet made the difference, then your source is pretty unreliable.

I wasn't trying to be rude, I am just saying you might want to be careful when passing along information like this when you don't know it to be true. I could have skipped the "fumble" comment, so for that I apologize. I believe the word you want is "funnel" though.

[ccowden 0]

Again, I am NOT arguing about what the largest formation record is or how amazing of an accomplishment it is. I am just curious what people think about the differences in difficulty of setting records from varying exit altitudes.

Quote

So in some ways going to 25K makes the skydive considerably harder than one from 15K.

I agree, but a 400-way from 15,000 is vitually impossible, so they offset.

[billvon 2,400]

>Going from 25,000 feet is crazy. Premature openings can become lethal at that altitude.

We had a few prematures in 2004; one reserve opened right out the door. He had no problems (other than a broken rib from the 160kt reserve deployment.)

[billvon 2,400]

> . . . with less control (less air for the jumper to use to fly).

No noticeable difference once you are in the air. Less air, but you're falling faster (due to less friction) so the air feels pretty much the same.