Exit order strategies...

[billvon 2,417]

>I was not, in any way, trying to map out a strategy for everyone
>and every dropzone and every situation and every aircraft.

I think the problem people here have is that you were suggesting a dangerous strategy. In a previous post you said:

"All things being equal, and taking into consideration the particular needs and circumstances of the individual dz, here's the way to do it:
Fastest falling, lowest opening out first. Slowest / highest out last. Freefly, relative work (big to small), AFF, tandem, CRW, wing."

That's NEVER a safe way to do it unless you're flying downwind, which is very unusual. People who take your advice could be at risk for freefall collisions.

[kallend 1,635]

I have put a very comprehensive Powerpoint presentation, complete with a video (thanks to Billvon), and an interactive freefall simulation, on my web site at

www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

Click on "Resources" and download from the obvious link.

If you wish to use it to persuade your DZO of anything, please go ahead.

If you can do Newtonian physics in your head in real time, you can make any exit order work. Otherwise it's best to stick to the exit order that Billvon, Remwha, etc. have described since it is the least susceptible to human error.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[speedy 0]

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It has been discussed to death on these forums, do a search and learn something.

I am trying to learn something, I'm also trying to teach something.

...but you haven't been around long enough yet, have you, sonny?

Brett

I did not need 27 years to learn that the ideas presented by you about exit order are likely to kill people.
However, I must admit that I did learn what is safe from people with more knowledge and experience than what I have gained in my 5 years in the sport.
Again my thanks to Kallend, billvon, winsor and many more that have helped me make my home DZ safer.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[wmw999 2,136]

Vertical separation was considered OK in what I'd like to think of as "the old days." I used to track down as much as out because of the vertical separation, and I had a quick-opening canopy so it didn't bother me to dump low.

However, there is too much evidence that vertical separation isn't as good as horizontal -- there are too many factors that can turn it into non-separation.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JohnMitchell 14]

Gotta go with Wendy on this one. One person with a premature deployment, one group breaking off a little low, and you have the makings of a real tragedy if you're counting on vertical separation. Horizontal separation is much more realiable for skydiving operations. People still need to consider all the factors in the SIM to be made aware of it's requirements, such as not flying up or down the flight line until the next group is spotted.

[dgskydive 0]

[brettpobastad 0]

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Vertical separation is very dependent on when the jumper pulls. That cannot be counted on. Don't try to use it. Exit order is easily affected and directly effects separation of groups. So does time between groups. I think your note is either unclear or you got it exactly backwords. So I won't back down on this one

Yea, and if a jumper farts in the airplane and the pilot passes out and somebody leaves their shoelaces untied...

You really are just fucking stupid, aren't you?

note to moderator: please ban me for life. You gotta whole bunch of idiots on this goddam site!

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

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However, there is too much evidence that vertical separation isn't as good as horizontal -- there are too many factors that can turn it into non-separation.

You are correct, Wendy (you as well, John!). But I don't believe I said that one was more important then the other. (sigh) My point was that in the real world of skydiving, not just at Perris or Kapowsin or Toledo, they are equally as important. And my original point was...IT DOESN"T FUCKING MATTER! If God himself came down outta the heavens and told Joe Weber that he was wrong and he needed to rethink his strategy, you know what Joe weber would say?

"Big fella, get your own 'gosh darn' dropzone!"

I don't even think Joe would cuss at God.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

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That is going to get someone killed!!!!!!

Great! Another 'Huck-bob' who makes 90 jumps a year and thinks he's Roger Nelson.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[nael 0]

I think you need to realise that people here are not making a personal attack at you, rather at your train of thought. The only reason things are discussed is so people can learn. Blocking yourself to new (or even old!) ideas can never be a good thing. We are all just trying to learn, but even I (yes, with a measley 200 jumps) can see the flaw in your arguement.

Take a breath and approach this with a clear head.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[hookitt 0]

Brett, there's no doubt your posts are entertaining.

15 years and about 5000 jumps, I consider myself an old dog... however, some old dogs learn new tricks, often reluctantly.

We (the team I flew with and other freefliers) tried so hard to keep the freefliers out first. After a couple seasons of near misses... unbelievably_close ...near misses, we adopted Skydive Arizona's theory and the amount of near misses declined.

Freefliers dive into the relative wind which shortens the hill and places the jumpers closer to the next exiting group. If the next group is a belly RW load, it will ride the relative wind increasing the hill in comparison.

That alone places the groups extremely close. Now add the fact that the first group is likely to fly directly into the line of flight during the approach to the landing zone. The seperation decreases even more.

If the exit order between those 2 groups is switched, the horizontal seperation at opening altitude is increased.

Hope that makes sense.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billvon 2,417]

>note to moderator: please ban me for life.

As you wish.

[Zenister 0]

WOW!

if i ever ponder jumping at Skydive Toledo someone please remind me about this thread...

you can have whatever 'philosophy' you'd like about anything.. however ignoring basic physics in favor of your 'philosophy' simply puts jumpers at an unnessesary risk.. if you cant accept the fundamentals of physics and follow a system that minimizes the risks by observing them and human behavior.. well..

but i guess it's a good thing Skydive Toledo is so tiny.. otherwise we'd likely be hearing more about it in the Incidents forum..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[timbarrett 0]

Advice needed...i buy the theory and totally agree but being new, often jumping with a coach and/or at a new dropzone I find some pretty wierd variations..
I was in Spain this weekend and i sat on the ride up and listened to the 45 degree rule being explained by one freeflyer to the guy who would follow him ( i think quite a bit got lost in the translation from english via Spanish to French) and then participated in (and this was organized by the JM) an exit order that went: Tandem/Tandem/FF/FF/RW/RW/Tandem/Tandem.
My question is once you are in this type of process what do you practically do. I chose to wait a long time before I jumped and got shouted at..and then prayed that the next guy did the same...

"Work hard, play hard and don't whinge"

[jurgencamps 0]

Not all DZ do jumpruns against the wind. For ex Ampuriabrava regularly does jumpruns with tailwind or crosswind, because they don't want you to land in the sea or in the town. So in this case they have other rules about the exitorder
So I believe that skydivers have to understand the rules and not just obei them without knowing the reasoning behind it.

[kallend 1,635]

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That is going to get someone killed!!!!!!

Great! Another 'Huck-bob' who makes 90 jumps a year and thinks he's Roger Nelson.

Roger Nelson's DZ switched to the "Arizona" exit order in 1999. He was always willing to listen and learn, as are his kids.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[speedy 0]

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Tandem/Tandem/FF/FF/RW/RW/Tandem/Tandem.

That might be an exit order based on a crosswind droprun. The people exiting first or last have the longest route back to the landing area.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[timbarrett 0]

Ah so...much for me to learn and understand it seems..will go away and think about it some more..that and study Kallend's piece...

"Work hard, play hard and don't whinge"

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I have put a very comprehensive Powerpoint presentation, complete with a video (thanks to Billvon), and an interactive freefall simulation, on my web site at

http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

Thanks for that. It is quite informative.

On a lighter, yet related note:

There was a rumor floating around WFFC in Quincy one year during the late nineties, when the exit order stategy was first being reconsidered due to substanstial differences in freefall speeds between RW and freefly groups. It involved a cocky freefly group, and Mike Mullins. Apparently the FF group felt it was important to exit before the RW groups for good vertical seperation. Mike told them that freeflyers should board first so they could exit last. He was told something to the effect of, "You just fly the plane and let us take care of the skydiving!"

So Mullins lets the FF group board last, and at altitude, gave them a green light, and they jumped first. Then the green light was replaced by a red light, jumpers were given instructions to close the door, and M. Mullins proceeded to fly back across the state line from Missouri to Illinois, where the rest of the load exited over Baldwin Field, in Quincy!

I don't know if it is true or not, but it does offer another alternative to obtain sufficient horizontal seperation when some jumpers refuse to recognize that the laws of physics apply to them, as well.

For the record, I really don't advocate pilots spotting jumpers in the wrong state!

For Great Deals on Gear

[bct110 0]

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That is going to get someone killed!!!!!!

Great! Another 'Huck-bob' who makes 90 jumps a year and thinks he's Roger Nelson.

This proves another great point that you shouldn't listen to someone just because they have 5000 jumps.

I see your point that the DZO sets policy... got it and very true. I did AFF through Aliscense at alarge DZ in Florida... they exited FF first. When I went back 4 months later for a boogie it was RW first. Seems even the "land of the skygods" open their minds up and learn something. You might want to try it...

But I digress... it has been proven by many smarter than both of us, that the exit order you stated in your original post was not a safe order. Resorting to personal attacks instead of just admitting you were wrong does not help your credibility.

[dgskydive 0]

I took a long time off and make more jumps in a year then you do pal. STop being an ass and learn something.

I am very current at one of the busiest DZ's in the world. We do more loads on a Monday then you do all week.

So Perris may not be the "real World" to you, but they deal with a higher amount of jumpers in the air at once. We see more freefliers and belly fliers on the same jumps then your small DZ will ever see. I think that says a lot about experience as far as putting out multiple groups at once and how to do it safely. The only time we run into troulbe is when some ass hat wnat to try things your way.

You keep calling names. Why don't you just admit you are wrong. You proably didn't even go look at the evidence that proves you way is wrong and dangerous.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

Never looked at your home DZ. I know Toledo and have jumped there.

In fact most of the guys from Toledo used to come jump at Blue SKies in Shelton when I was a student. I have to say.... if I knew then what I know now. I may have never jumped at that DZ. Maybe it has changed over the years...I hope it has. Don Bentley would'nt agree with you and IF my good friend Tommy Lentz was still alive I would have him slap some sense and manners into you.

Dom

[nate_1979 9]

I've got a question for all of you...

How about someone (like myself) who is *LEARNING* freefly, solo... Leearning freefly, I am a little faster than on belly, but I'm not hitting the freefly speeds that alot of people hit, and spend a decent amount of time in no stable position (and trying to break the "fail to belly" habit) ... I'm sure that I am sliding all over the place, although I always try to make sure I am pointing off of jump run .... Where should I be exiting? With the freeflyers? Between them? after everybody? ... Just seems that when i'm not in freefly speeds I could also be picking up alot of the same winds that blow an RW group.... ... I've been only RW until very recently.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[LouDiamond 1]

Just a reminder to everyone. Let's keep this on topic and civil. All forum rules are still in effect and will be enforced. Don't be that guy.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bct110 0]

When I was learning to sit, I usually exited at the end of the freeflyers (as I was solo anyway). If there are other, more experienced, freefly solos... just ask them to go ahead of you and give some extra time between you and the person/group ahead of you...