Oxygen problem at event?

[peek 20]

Yesterday a jumper I know showed us a video he got from someone while in a King Air (at Skydive Arizona at an event I was told) where there was an oxygen system "anomaly".

It seemed to show a jumper very much affected by hypoxia.

Does anyone have any more info about this? I searched for "oxygen" and did not find anything that seemed related.

[billvon 2,463]

Hmm. Such an occurrence might not be very noteworthy; it seems to happen often.

[peek 20]

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It seemed to show a jumper very much affected by hypoxia.

Perhaps I should have said dangerously affected by hypoxia. What I saw was someone lying on their back in the door acting incoherently, and being eventually pushed out the door.

Perhaps not many people have seen this video, because if they did I think there would be a number of comments on it.

[vpozzoli 0]

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Perhaps not many people have seen this video, because if they did I think there would be a number of comments on it.

Not to mention possible criminal charges against those who pushed a disabled skydiver out of the plane instead of riding the plane down with him.
Maybe that is why it hasn't been circulated much.

Ciao.

Vale

[grue 1]

I wasn't on the load, so this is all heresay, but I'm told one of the high-alt loads before mine at the Holiday Boogie didn't get the O2 turned on. I don't know much beyond that.

cavete terrae.

[joewantaharley 0]

Peek are you starting shit. The guy wasn't pushed out but the lady standing over him did at one time lift her leg like she was going to. I was on the loan & showed the video to peek (well my buddy did while I was packing 3-19-06). I talked with the pilot the oxygen was on just was not turn on all the way. So we didn't get oxygen like we should have. I've showed this video to a few skydivers & some laugh at it & most get very pissed off about it. It was bad the way he exited the plane lots of stuff could have went wrong. But thank god nothing did. I talked with the guy 2 days later & he told me he was passed out from 21000 to 15000. Talking to my rigger that night he told me once you get oxygen you will come out of it. But just think about it, waking up in freefall. I'm sure there is a way to post video. But I do not want to get anyone in trouble. My 2 buddies & I felt we should have got our money back but we let it go. The only guy that got his money back was one guy that rode the plane back down. Anyway still safe everyone later Joe

[billvon 2,463]

>It was bad the way he exited the plane lots of stuff could have
>went wrong. But thank god nothing did. I talked with the guy 2 days
>later & he told me he was passed out from 21000 to 15000.

You mean he passed out before exit? Or did you go higher than 21000?

[peek 20]

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Peek are you starting shit? The guy wasn't pushed out but the lady standing over him did at one time lift her leg like she was going to.

Well, it kinda looked like he was incapacitated to the point where she needed to.

The amount of time that passed while all of this was going on was kind of amazing too.

I brought it up because I was thinking that there are a lot of people that in those circumstances that would not be able to identify an oxygen problem with themselves or others, and it seemed like that was what was happening.

Perhaps we need to have someone volunteer to be an "oxygen monitor" even on loads going to the low 20's. Nobody expects a go-around, but they happen, like on this load.

And nobody expects a "partial" issue with oxygen either.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

It fascinates me from a Military Freefall Jumpmaster point of view that all these bigways go down without the benefit of a Phys-Tech or some other qualified monitor on board each plane. I would venture to guess that the GREAT majority of these participants have had no formal chamber training at all. Unbelievable. I am surprised there aren't more incidents of blackouts and less-severe hypoxia actually.

In 25 years of jumping, particularly lately in these days of 14,000'+ jumping, I have seen plenty of people pass out in planes. I have also witnessed more than one person "fall out" of a plane in that state only to come to in freefall. This is dangerous ground.

Having a bail-out/walk-around bottle handy at the back of the plane might alleviate some of these mishaps.

Sincerely,

Chuck Blue
D-12501, AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI-4, PRO, MFFJM
Raeford Parachute Center, NC

[stratostar 5]

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I brought it up because I was thinking that there are a lot of people that in those circumstances that would not be able to identify an oxygen problem with themselves or others, and it seemed like that was what was happening.

It is well documented that this happens in the chamber and they do it to show airmen what takes place, those people think there doing fine playing cards or writing their name over and over, as I'm sure you know, when seeing the films of these tests it looks like their drunk or on an acid trip till they pass out.
I think you are correct that many jumpers would have no clue as to the state of them selfs or others
the test prove it.

And what chuck said too.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,463]

> It fascinates me from a Military Freefall Jumpmaster point of view that
>all these bigways go down without the benefit of a Phys-Tech or some
>other qualified monitor on board each plane.

At WT this year we had an MD in charge of O2 systems, a monitor in each plane and pulse oximeters in several places monitoring O2 levels. We still had a few cases of hypoxia (not as bad as 2004 fortunately.) Skydivers often rely on the idea that they will recover by 15,000 feet if anything goes wrong, but even if that happens, that's a lot of time in freefall to be out of it.

[grue 1]

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You mean he passed out before exit? Or did you go higher than 21000?

I can't speak for their load, but the load that wildcard451 and I were on had a 21,800AGL exit, according to neptunes on board.

cavete terrae.

[labrys 0]

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Peek are you starting shit? The guy wasn't pushed out but the lady standing over him did at one time lift her leg like she was going to.

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Well, it kinda looked like he was incapacitated to the point where she needed to.

Needed to?

Owned by Remi #?

[peek 20]

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Needed to?

OK, OK, I thought about that after I made that post and realized it would sound odd, (especially after that vigorously debated thread over there about pushing people out of the airplane...)

Since the remaining jumpers might have been affected and the pilot may not have known what was happening, one (questionable) solution would be to get the affected jumper out the door and down to a lower altitude as soon as possible.

This would depend on how affected the jumper "encouraging the exit" is, and whether the affected jumper could be "aided" until at a lower altitude.

I guess this could be debated a while too.....

I have no idea what I would do in those circumstances even if I wasn't affected and thinking well.

[LouDiamond 1]

The best and safest thing to do for a jumper in that condition would be to move them to the front of the aircraft, seat belt them in,put their O2 mask back on and have them ride the plane down. Let the pilot know and if possible have another jumper ride down with them. Hypoxic people do some very strange things sometimes and having someone there to watch/help them is a good idea. Which goes back to what was mentioned already, an O2 technician or at least a designated monitor on board would be a good idea for high altitude jumps.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Orange1 0]

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Skydivers often rely on the idea that they will recover by 15,000 feet if anything goes wrong, but even if that happens, that's a lot of time in freefall to be out of it.

Bill, do I read this right - that even skydivers who realise they are hypoxic jump anyway figuring out they will be OK by 15K or so??

Apart from the South Pole jump, are there are any bad incidents that have been linked to hypoxia?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[billvon 2,463]

>Bill, do I read this right - that even skydivers who realise they are
> hypoxic jump anyway figuring out they will be OK by 15K or so??

Well:

1) often they don't realize they are hypoxic

2) they often tolerate less than ideal O2 systems because they figure they are tough

3) when they _are_ hypoxic, even dumb ideas sound pretty smart.

>Apart from the South Pole jump, are there are any bad incidents that
>have been linked to hypoxia?

Like as in injuries or fatalities? I heard a few people at high altitude records claim that hypoxia at altitude affected their landings (they just didn't 'feel right'.) So you could attribute some sprained ankles to it. Mostly it's loss of memory/function. We had one guy in the base at WT06 who was basically unconscious; his arms and legs were just waving around at random until he got a bit lower. At the Arizona 300-way we had a whole plane lose O2 about five minutes prior, and a few people were unconscious at some point in the dive. They all recovered before pull altitude. (One woman actually got close to her slot, but has no recollection of the jump.)

In terms of what _can_ go wrong - we had one cameraman pass out during WT this year. He fell out, got below the formation, came to at about 15000 feet, flipped over and came rocketing up through a building sector. Fortunately he missed everyone.

[rhanold 0]

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This would depend on how affected the jumper "encouraging the exit" is, and whether the affected jumper could be "aided" until at a lower altitude.

This was my video. The guy in question left under his own power. He looked like a fish on a dock that flopped until he found water but it was his own power. no one assisted. 3 people tried to put his seatbelt back on. he scooted away. I was out of my mind, I don't remember leaving the aircraft. I only have the video for 10 minuets of time I cant remember. but I got out. My neptune says we went to just under 21000 ft. I will never do another High alt again.

[Eagle7 0]

This was my video. The guy in question left under his own power. He looked like a fish on a dock that flopped until he found water but it was his own power. no one assisted. 3 people tried to put his seatbelt back on. he scooted away. I was out of my mind, I don't remember leaving the aircraft.

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At 32 jumps I can not understand how anyone can hurl themselves out of an airplane when they are not mentally or physically fit to do so. I have read over and over on these boards that even if you do everything right you can still die. This seems to be doing everything wrong.

This is like a drunk driver saying, “I will be alright to drive because by the time I get there I will be sober”. Instead of the drunk driver operating a two ton missile horizontally on the streets this is like a 120 mph rocket hurling vertically to earth with no guidance system.

As a student pilot this is very poor decision making by the jumpers and the pilot. This is way beyond the examples of what not to do in my pilot textbooks (or in my skydiving training). If someone recognized that the Oxygen was not working (is there a gauge or confirmation procedure?) maybe the pilot should have scrubbed the jump, told everyone to put on their seatbelts, immediately descend to a safe altitude and then land the plane. I know I am new but I believe I am speaking from common sense. I will continue to read the comments of the more experience skydivers on this.

I am new so I will probably be flamed for opening my mouth but Jesus.

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This was my video. The guy in question left under his own power. He looked like a fish on a dock that flopped until he found water but it was his own power. no one assisted. 3 people tried to put his seatbelt back on. he scooted away. I was out of my mind, I don't remember leaving the aircraft. I only have the video for 10 minuets of time I cant remember. but I got out. My neptune says we went to just under 21000 ft. I will never do another High alt again.

Thank you very much for reporting that!

That was my idea here, to get people talking about so those who don't understand hposia can learn.

[peek 20]

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At 32 jumps I can not understand how anyone can hurl themselves out of an airplane when they are not mentally or physically fit to do so.

Well, that's the problem with hypoxia. People are not able to judge their own mental ability when it happens.

People have been known to actually feel "euphoric" while hypoxic.

Keep reading this thread, including some of the previous posts, and you will learn about it. Hopefully we will all learn something.

Including me. I have never been in the altitude chamber "ride" so the effects of hypoxia scare me, thinking I could be one of those people that lose it.

[rhanold 0]

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Well, that's the problem with hypoxia. People are not able to judge their own mental ability when it happens.

People have been known to actually feel "euphoric" while hypoxic.

Exactly!
I could not lift my arms but I felt great.

[LouDiamond 1]

Euphoria is only one of the effects of hypoxia and not everyone who becomes or experiences hypoxia will become euphoric. There are several other physiological factors that contribute to one becoming hypoxic, smokers are at greater risk than non smokers as are those who partied hard the night before or ingested drugs. The way altitude effects one person very well may differ from how it effects another, which is why taking a chamber ride is the only way to really know how one will react while still being in a safe and controlled environment. The effects of high altitude jumping is probably one of the least known about and often dismissed topics in civillian skydiving. Most people are under the false asumption that its no big deal because it is done often in civillian skydiving. The truth of the matter is that it is an additional risk one takes and if you plan on doing it, you should educate yourself from fact and not DZ heresay.I covered this topic in some detail in my book becasue I felt it was an often overlooked and misunderstood topic.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Eule 0]

Something I don't know about the oxygen systems typically used on jump planes: does each jumper have
a hose that just flows a little oxygen all the time, or is there some kind of regulator that only flows oxygen
when you inhale, sort of like a SCUBA regulator? If it's the former, I don't think this would work, but if
the latter, I wonder if some kind of flow rate alarm at the oxygen bottle could be useful.

The idea would be that there would be a box in the oxygen line right off the bottle. The pilot or other
responsible person would set a control on the box for the number of jumpers. The box watches the
flow rate and if it doesn't see enough flow (possibly averaged over a short time) for that many people,
a light flashes or a horn goes off or whatever.

This might be trying to solve a wetware problem with hardware. It's also kind of a measure-by-proxy; if
you really wanted to check you'd give everyone an individual pulse oximeter. But having one device
instead of N devices would be less expensive, and it could be bolted to the wall so you wouldn't have to
keep track of it. There might be ways to "fool" the box; people might be able to stick their thumb in the
mouthpiece or something to make the oxygen flow. Also, if you set the box for 2 jumpers but there were
really 8, 6 people could be off the oxygen and the box would think everything is fine. (This is part of the
reason I suggest putting the box under pilot control instead of jumper control.) There may be too much
variability in people's lung capacity (5' 120 lb lady vs. 6'4" 200 lb guy) to make this practical, too.

Just curious if there are major reasons this won't work, or if it has been tried before and not worked.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[LouDiamond 1]

What you're describing already exists. Modern military O2 masks work on a demand system. All jumpers are hooked into a console that an O2 Technician monitors and controls. Attached to each individual jumpers system is a flow regulator indicator that moves every time one inhales/exhales. The same flow regulator is also present on the individual bail out bottle system as well.

The problem with civilian systems, IMO, is that they lack several of the important pieces already mentioned. Most civilian systems consist of the K size O2 bottle in the pilot cockpit and it has the only regulator and guage in the whole system. For starters, civilian operations turn the O2 on usualy at 10K feet, it should start on the ground for 30 mins of pre breathing if one is going above 17,999 or if you expect to be above 15k for more than 30 mins, to purge the nitrogen in ones system. Another problem is that most civilian operations use nasal canullas which are pretty much useless since one can still breath in ambient air which negates the nitrogen purge process. It is also very hard to determine how much O2 the person is breathing when using the nasal canulla. A mask that covers the nose and mouth completely and that can form a seal is what is needed. Once the mask goes on and the O2 starts the seal cannot be broken otherwise one has to start their prebreathing all over.The lack of a designated O2 tech or even a static monitor to ensure the system is functioning properly and to watch people for the effects of hypoxia is another drawback. Since most skydivers have probably been hypoxic at one point and haven't even realized it since it can happen as low as 10K feet, it would be a good idea to have someone onboard to monitor these 2 functions. I could go on but it I think most probably get the point.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING