AADs Scare Me

[airtwardo 6]

I just HATE introducing a machine that I cannot control into the formula that saves my life every jump.

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Unless you plan to only base jump....ya kinda gotta use a machine that you can't control to get to altitude!

If you factor in the number of jumps with AADs to the number of saves, vs. the number of 'accidental' firing...
( usually not an accident, fired within the design parameters)
It's a no-brain er, use the technology!

After a thousand jumps or so you can re-evaulate.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[riggerrob 558]

Hah!
I avoid mentioning AADs during my first jump course, because I prefer students to pay attention about malfunctions and plan on saving their own lives.
Similarly, I avoid mentioning the radio - until gear up - to force them to listen to my boring lecture about steering a parachute.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Hah!
I avoid mentioning AADs during my first jump course, because I prefer students to pay attention about malfunctions and plan on saving their own lives.
Similarly, I avoid mentioning the radio - until gear up - to force them to listen to my boring lecture about steering a parachute.

Good for you, Rob.
I don't remember the AAD being mentioned until my second or third jump. Also, during my FJC, the Instructor repeatedly emphasized that the radio doesn't work much more often than it works, so we have to be prepared to land our canopies with no assistance.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Mike111 0]

telling a guy to fuck off with 23 years experiecne when you haven't even jumped .. might wanna reevaluate that mate.

Even if you delete the post.

If i were him, I would tell you to fuck off.

No harm meant.

[Merkur 1]

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Until you complete the requirements for your USPA A license (assuming you are jumping in US), you can opt to jump without an AAD.

I think that this is a typo. I f I remember correctly, until you get off student status, you have to use an AAD.

Some bakground:
The Airtec (manufacturer of CYPRES) website states, that it has sold some 80000 units of CYPRES I.

From what I know (feel free to correct me), there has never been a misfire with CYPRES I. When it fired, it was due to the fact, that the activation parameters where fullfilled - this might not always be intended, like on highspeed approaches, but it wasn't, what I call a misfire. It also sometimes didn't fire, when you expected it and again, this wasn't a misfire but an improper activation. The user in the case I have in mind forgot to set the difference between starting point and DZ elevation.

The early VIGIL had some misfires on the ground due to static electricity issues, but the company has replaced the "old" models and up to now, I haven't heard about VIGIL misfires. All the "not expected" fires where again caused by hitting the parameters.

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Is it an unreasonable fear?

From my point of view it is, as I haven't heard of any such case. Even if it would fire at 150 ft, your reserve would probably not inflate as mentioned before.

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I guess I'd just rather rely totally on myself than on a machine.

For all you technical freaks: How do you define machine? Does an altimeter already count? If so, you better rely on a machine as altitude awareness needs some jumps to be trained.

Beside the AAD topic, I personally like to encourage you to put up as many questions as you can think of. While a lot of them might be stupid from our/my poin of view, they certainly aren't - at least in first place - for you. My instructor always told me that there are no stupid questions - just stupid answers!

Enjoy your training,
M.

vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

[Zipp0 1]

Knee-jerk response removed.

Zipp0

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[billvon 2,400]

>An asshole with 23 years of experience is still an asshole.

Your one warning. No personal attacks.

[krkeenan 0]

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I just HATE introducing a machine that I cannot control into the formula that saves my life every jump.

I'm sure that having an airbag deploy in your face as you're merging into traffic on a busy highway would be dangerous, but do you think about that possibility every time you get into your car ??

Kevin

======================
Seasons don't fear the Reaper,
nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain...

[gjhdiver 0]

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OK, first off I am just starting out in the sport. The thing is, as I near my first jump I keep getting an image in my mind of the AAD firing for no good reason at 150 ft. AGL. I just HATE introducing a machine that I cannot control into the formula that saves my life every jump. Is this an unreasonable fear?

I guess I'd just rather rely totally on myself than on a machine.

Zipp0

I don't trust 'em. I had a misfire on a perfectly good in service AAD that had just come back from it's four year. They could never tell me why it happened.

It's a machine, built and programmed by people. You're better off relying on good procedures and sensible judgement about the situations that you jump in.

Mind you, the argument is moot, as it's only us old farts who feel comfortable jumping without them these days.

[Capt36 6]

If it had accepted "ZippO", on the dz.com email, you would have it by now. Your bio lists no email address.

Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless beauty...

And, give money for Mr Douglas! www.mrdouglas.org

[Zipp0 1]

I have updated my profile, and thanks for the heads-up.

My apologies for the short fuse on this end. We all have bad days - especially Mondays.

Zipp0

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[labrys 0]

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I have updated my profile

How is it that you can be a freefall photographer and have no jumps? You might consider updating that profile again.

Owned by Remi #?

[TheDonMan 0]

how can he be a video guy when he seems to be on student status???

The world is full of willing people, some willing to work, the rest willing to let them.

[Zipp0 1]

I am a photographer, although not a freefall photographer. I missed the 'freefall' part..... changed.

Thanks.

Zipp0

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Fast 0]

Please enjoy your first jump course and remember that your instructor, in your course, is the person that you should listen to. No matter what you read on the internet, in a book, see on tv, or get as an email or other form of message. You need to either listen to the instructor at the DZ you go to -or- if you think the instructor is nuts, unlikely, you should go find another dropzone, or not skydive at all.

This forum is a great place for sharing information and talking about skydiving, but due to differences in student programs and many other factors that would be hard for you to understand right now you are best of listening to the instructors at your local DZ.

Sharing experiences is fun. Posting pictures is fun. There is lots of stuff you can do on here that is fun. If you are a skydiving student or even just a skydiver that doesn't have much experience you need to remember to listen and/or talk to your local instructors. They know you best, can see what you do, and can give you a much more detailed and tailored response.



That being said, yeah I know someone who is a cypress save and its not cause he got knocked out. It was a student who failed to execute his emergency procedures as tought to him by his instructor. He had a PC in tow. Good thing he had an AAD. I don't think he skydives anymore.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[mjosparky 3]

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I wonder how many AADs are in service worldwide? That would give you a pretty good idea of reliability.

That might tell you how many have been sold, I don't think it tells you anything about reliability.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Rdy2skydive 0]

FWIW - I have personally witnessed two Cypres saves as a result of losing altitude awareness. One was a very experienced jumper and one had less than 100 jumps. In addition to that, every year on the anniversary of his death, I watch friends grieve for the loss of a very experienced skydiver and friend who would most likely be alive today if he had a Cypres. Once you get your own gear the choice is yours, but for me, it's worth the $$$. Good luck with your FJC.

[piisfish 135]

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OAADs Scare Me

AAD's saved me.

check the incidents forum.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[kelpdiver 2]

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I wonder how many AADs are in service worldwide? That would give you a pretty good idea of reliability.

That might tell you how many have been sold, I don't think it tells you anything about reliability.

The number sold certainly tells us something. The vast majority sold are in fact in use - they're too expensive to look at on the shelf, they're mandatory for many, used by a large chunk of the rest.

That AADs were once seen as too dangerous to bother with and now are accepted as standard equipment must say something.

[RMURRAY 1]

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OK, first off I am just starting out in the sport. The thing is, as I near my first jump I keep getting an image in my mind of the AAD firing for no good reason at 150 ft. AGL. I just HATE introducing a machine that I cannot control into the formula that saves my life every jump. Is this an unreasonable fear?

I guess I'd just rather rely totally on myself than on a machine.

Zipp0

I don't trust 'em. I had a misfire on a perfectly good in service AAD that had just come back from it's four year. They could never tell me why it happened.

It's a machine, built and programmed by people. You're better off relying on good procedures and sensible judgement about the situations that you jump in.

Mind you, the argument is moot, as it's only us old farts who feel comfortable jumping without them these days.

I think AADs are a good thing. I just don't want one in my rig. Of course, it all depends on the jumping you are into. 4 way and swooping are lower risk than FFing or AFF. I'll get one when they are mandatory, which is coming some day...

rm

[ccowden 0]

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OAADs Scare Me

AAD's saved me.

check the incidents forum.

WOW! The lame argument that an AAD might misfire looks even more lame after THAT!

Glad it worked out!

[tbrown 26]

AADs have changed the face of the sport. Thirty years ago the available models were considered unreliable by experienced jumpers and we never used them. Deaths due to low pulls or no pull at all were the leading cause of death in the sport. The Cypres was the first of the reliable AADs to come on the market around 1991. Now there are competing brands, notably the Vigil and others. Deaths by low or no pull have been way drastically reduced.

The leading cause of death in the sport now is how you handle the perfectly open and functioning canopy you're under at or below 150 ft. One hard tug on a toggle can send you spiraling into the ground at speeds exceeding 50 mph. Unlike the old days, death isn't usually instantanoues either, you might linger in the ICU for a couple days until the doctors convince your family that your brain is gone and it's time to turn off the machinery and say goodbye.

You would do much better to be concerned about the REAL things like canopy control (and to take a course in canopy control as soon as possible after AFF or your A license). Simply put, you're worrying about the wrong things. You won't have a hot enough canopy or the know-how to accidently fire your AAD, even if you tried, not for a long time.

And once you've been given some advice, have the grace to accept it. If you really want to fixate on AADs and be really argumentive about it, maybe this sport isn't for you - it ain't for everybody (thank God). There's not an instructor or a dropzone on this earth that's under any kind of obligation to take you up and let you jump. Keep it up and give them a bad enough feeling and most dropzones I know will give your money back and tell you to get off their property.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Zipp0 1]

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You would do much better to be concerned about the REAL things like canopy control (and to take a course in canopy control as soon as possible after AFF or your A license).

I am, and I will. In making the decision to skydive I read all of the incident reports, and low turns seemed to be the biggest issue lately.

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Simply put, you're worrying about the wrong things. You won't have a hot enough canopy or the know-how to accidently fire your AAD, even if you tried, not for a long time.

I can be concerned and ask a question, right? And I understand what you mean about the hot canopy - not for a long time, if ever.

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And once you've been given some advice, have the grace to accept it.

I accept all of it, but it seems there are differing opinions on the subject. I am open to hearing all of them.

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If you really want to fixate on AADs and be really argumentive about it, maybe this sport isn't for you - it ain't for everybody (thank God).

One thread and some discussion does not a fixation make. It seems that many people are interested in the discussion, hence all of the posts.

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There's not an instructor or a dropzone on this earth that's under any kind of obligation to take you up and let you jump. Keep it up and give them a bad enough feeling and most dropzones I know will give your money back and tell you to get off their property.

Keep what up? I have only been there a few times, and didn't have any problems at all. I think I am a very likeable, easy going, personable guy.

These forums are here for sharing opinions, information, and good healthy debate, as far as I know. Why does it seem to me that so many experienced jumpers want to just say "shut the hell up, noob"?

I'll go away now, and just report in after the FJC.....

Peace,

Zipp0

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[karenmeal 0]

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These forums are here for sharing opinions, information, and good healthy debate, as far as I know. Why does it seem to me that so many experienced jumpers want to just say "shut the hell up, noob"?

I don't know. Probably because there are plenty of people out there that will only skydive if they have an AAD. It is actually pretty common to get people on the DZ who will refuse to jump without one.

So here is some of the opinion/information that you wanted. My thoughts on AADs.

There are times when I jump that I choose to not turn on my AAD. If I am getting out low (less than 3,000) I will usually leave it turned off. I'm pretty confident about my ability to exit a plane without getting myself knocked unconscious, so I don't really worry about that. But if you are exiting a plane at 1,800 feet you definitely increase your chances of having an AAD fire when you don't want it to. Not a misfire, it would be doing what it is designed to do. If you get out that low, wait a few seconds to deploy, and get a slow opening parachute, you could still be falling fast enough and low enough (with a parachute that is starting to open) that you would trigger your AAD to fire. This would give you a 2-out scenario. But if they aren't tangled, then that is not so bad, worse things could happen.

On jumps from altitude, I prefer to have a AAD. But I will definitely jump without one on those too. As far as being concerned about having an AAD fire when I don't want it to, I figure that if I get that low unintentionally, shit is probably going wrong and my cypress may as well help me out.

My main protection from having an AAD (and personal stupidity) induced two-out scenario is to always remain aware of my altitude and to pull at an appropriate altitude. But I do that regardless of what is in my rig, so I don't ever need to adjust my behavior according to whether I jump an AAD or not.

In your case being a student, I would definitely reccomend having an AAD and feeling very confident about jumping with one. I was shocked with my first jump that I more or less blacked out for the first 10 seconds of the jump. It was just total overload.

I have heard multiple static line students commenting after their jumps that they were so overloaded that they don't know if they would have thought to initiate emergency procedures if they had found themselves under a malfunctioning main. Those people that made those comments aren't all twits, they may have seemed very level-headed and intelligent on the ground, but couldn't handle skydiving too well. You really don't know how you will respond. Maybe you've particpated in a lot of intense sports or something and are good about that sort of thing, but I dunno, maybe you could still panic.

So even on a static line jump you could still have some sort of crazy shit go wrong that could lead to you being unconscious, or perhaps reacting poorly to a malfunctioning parachute. It would be good to have an AAD just in case things go very very wrong.

Anyways.. I think that I have typed enough now.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Hawkins121 0]

Is this enough for you???

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2179797;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


Posted by Piisfish in the incident forum



Yesterday afternoon, I had a scary malfunction, but I am glad to announce I am more alive than ever, and that I am in one piece , totally unhurt.

My experience : 870 jumps, approx 550-600 with camera
Rig : Talon, big PC, long bridle (for wingsuit), Safire2, PD-R 143
Helmet : Hawkeye, BH Clamshell box, lolipop ringsight, METAL SCREWS, NO cutaway system, Chincup+chinstrap (due to a previous mishap)

Freefly jump, 3 way, uneventful, from 16'000ft approx. At separation I see one of my jumpmates on my side (far enough, slightly higher) but I already had my PC in hand. Decide to keep it for a second more. I Feel my helmet pulling my head from the right side. Main bridle got caught in my ringsite. PC continues pullin the main Dbag , lines all around my face, Dbag hitting my head.

I fight to undo both chincup and chinstrap, see the ground coming FAST, no time to cutaway, straight to reserve. but at the moment I pulled the reserve I felt my rig was already empty.

deceleration, harness turn to land parallel to the runway, flare with rear risers, not enough flare then, so after my feet touched the ground I let it slide on my arse.

Camera stopped recording when I landed due to humidity/condensation.

I just got a second life 11 days before my b-day.

Vdeopeople, video enthusiasts, please check your helmets, please DO NOT use metal screws, please get a cutaway, please eliminate snagpoints as much as possible.

Also when your PC is out, unless it is vital (someone above you), let it go.

I would like to thank publicly Airtec, Rigging Innovations and Performance Designs.

I would also like to thank all the people who helped me, who listened to me, who called me for support.

I would like to also give another hommage to Stefan, my rigger, who left us the day before this incident. He saved my life for the second time, and this time I know he was there to help me.

The video will very soon be updated on Skydivingmovies, Airtec and Para-Mag. (main-helmet entanglement for internet)