bob.dino 0 #26 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuote Every first jumper I've ever trained has had it drilled into their head that turns close to the ground WILLl result in injury.....they must be flying straight on touchdown, under control.....even if it means hitting an obstacle.....and being under control is most important....it gives you time to prepare for the landing.... Of the 10,000 + first jumpers I've trained, I've never had one injure themself landing in a turn.... In a turn, the parachute is not acting as a parachute, it is falling out of the sky.... To the person who states flat turns are OK.....you just keep tryig them then...I guarantee you'll get a ride in an ambulance at some stage.... And there is an Easter bunny and a Santa Claus. Don't forget to tell them about the Tooth Fairy too. Huh? I don't quite get this post... maybe I'm just being dense. Could you elaborate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #27 June 1, 2006 Quotedownwinders are fun...I hear that... Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #28 June 1, 2006 Quote To the person who states flat turns are OK.....you just keep tryig them then...I guarantee you'll get a ride in an ambulance at some stage.... Ignore that advice.... Its a dumb thing to say, because it only takes the smallest misjudgement while doing a turn (or turbulence for instance)....and you will be bitten for certain..... Better not to go there in the first place....Quote First off I respect Tim’s posts immensely not solely due to the fact that there is an enormous amount of experience under his belt but also for his ability to clearly communicate his points and have learned a lot from reading them here on DZ.com. That being said I would like to expand on this topic a bit: Performing a Flat Turn low to the ground is sometimes necessary so it is a good idea to practice the maneuver at a safe altitude, ergo way up there, above an altitude you are willing to cutaway from and it is a great idea to get canopy piloting training. When making the decision to perform a Flat Turn in order to not hit an obstacle use common sense and decide which is the lesser of the two evils. For example if the choices are a Flat Turn (low to the ground) or hitting power lines, obviously changing heading might be preferred over flying into the power lines. Don’t panic and keep the parachute overhead by proper execution of the Flat Turn as indicated in Section 6 Page 153 of the 2006 SIM Alternatively, if the choices are a Flat turn (low to the ground) or a Down/Cross wind landing then the down winder would be advisable in lieu of performing a maneuver to change your heading. I have witnessed a very experienced skydiver (in terms of time in the sport, jump numbers and currency) pull a single toggle down to the shoulder in an attempt to avoid a tree at approximately 100 feet and die. I have also seen a skydiver still on student status perform a properly executed Flat Turn (low to the ground) in order to avoid a power line, remaining calm and keeping the canopy overhead the entire time, then intersect the ground in mid-turn, perform a PLF and walk away. The student had very limited experience performing this maneuver but the combination of study, limited practice and remaining calm made the difference for this individual. Remain calm, practice at a safe altitude and choose the lesser of two evils…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #29 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote Every first jumper I've ever trained has had it drilled into their head that turns close to the ground WILLl result in injury.....they must be flying straight on touchdown, under control.....even if it means hitting an obstacle.....and being under control is most important....it gives you time to prepare for the landing.... Of the 10,000 + first jumpers I've trained, I've never had one injure themself landing in a turn.... In a turn, the parachute is not acting as a parachute, it is falling out of the sky.... To the person who states flat turns are OK.....you just keep tryig them then...I guarantee you'll get a ride in an ambulance at some stage.... And there is an Easter bunny and a Santa Claus. Don't forget to tell them about the Tooth Fairy too. Huh? I don't quite get this post... maybe I'm just being dense. Could you elaborate? Sure. He is guaranteeing me an ambulance ride for something that I do routinely and have for quite a few years. I agree with him that *clearly* the thing to do is avoid obstacles by making small corrections way before you are in close proximity to them, but that's not always an option. For example, if you are on final into a tight landing area and another canopy suddenly appears in your path or, in the case of a demo, a person gets in your path. Or the case where sudden wind changes put you in a place you really don't want to be, but don't give you a lot of choice in the matter. My point is that things do not always go according to plan and sometimes you need to do avoidance maneuvers close to the ground. It can easily become a choice between getting hurt for sure, by doing nothing, or maybe coming out of it ok by doing a flat turn. The original post was regarding downwind landing vs. low turn. In most cases, taking the downwind landing is ok advice, but saying that flat turns will guarantee an ambulance ride is ridiculous. Sometimes, they are the only reasonable option. Learning to do them properly is a good thing and I think that using scare tactics so people will avoid them is not a good thing. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #30 June 1, 2006 Quotesaying that flat turns will guarantee an ambulance ride is ridiculous. Sometimes, they are the only reasonable option. Learning to do them properly is a good thing and I think that using scare tactics so people will avoid them is not a good thing. Walt Quite possibly the wisest comment ever made! I couldent agree more. Applause...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #31 June 1, 2006 Downwind. I made a stupid student error and landed downwind. Just got a bunch of grass stains. I landed downwind once again at around jump 140 because I was confused by traffic (I was at almost the same altitude as someone else who wasn't following an expected pattern) - I ran it out and stood it up Probably a 5mph downwinder. Nobody at the dropzone noticed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #32 June 1, 2006 Maybe I need to clarify things a little.... I was speaking in very general terms, but my comment was more aimed at inexperienced jumpers who tend to copy more experienced jumpers, but without the skills necessary to execute the manouevre safely....and that inevitably leads to trouble.... You may be another one of those invincible skydivers Walt ( I've seen quite a few of them).... but Joe Junior Jumper who watches you do it and tries it himself, may not get away with it..... A huge number of accidents, fatalities and injuries these days are a result of contact with the ground as a result of an inappropriate contol input.....and the victims are often people of high experience who should know better.... That suggests to me that the whole landing part of training (generally) could do with some serious attention.....hell, a lot of canopy control landing is over in 30 seconds...."listen to the radio".... Off the radio.....sorry buddy, you're on your own..... An earlier poster suggested that the dangers of turning close to the ground should be part of first jump training. I agree and was merely pointing out that it is part of my canopy control training....but I also put a lot of emphasis on keeping a lookout and preparing for landing early...at 1000 feet they should begin preparations for landing (i.e. looking and selecting a safe area to land), at 500 feet they need to be tuned in to it totally..... The important thing for them to understand is to land safely, wherever that may be......but if they do get into a tight situation they must not freak out but land under control..... In short they should never get into a sticky situation in the first place, but if they do, a normal landing flare, under control, will 9 times out of 10 see them walk away OK, or at least minimise any damage to themselves....The 292 sq feet student canopy saves a lot of grief....and is forgiving when landed correctly...... I do NOT want my students trying avoidance manoeuvres close to the ground, apart from minor toggle inputs (maybe 5 degrees at a time). None of my first jumpers has ever landed in a turn, very few have ever landed on an obstacle, and none have injured themselves in this manner, and this goes for the many who have progressed a long way in skydiving..... I think that this proves the point that better canopy control should be a feature of first jump training...the jump isn't over till one is safely on the ground, and its the last half inch of the jump that can hurt the most. Having to teach students how to flat turn is, to my mind, an admission that you haven't taught them avoidance techniques properly in the first place, and there are too many variables to make it foolproof.....lots of fools out there..... And over egging the pudding when it comes to outlining the consequences of a stupid landing manoeuvre is harmless, if it gives them a healthy respect for the hard hard ground..... Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy fear..... But I guess the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy are pretty invincible....Santa is on automatic pilot.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #33 June 1, 2006 Quote Maybe I need to clarify things a little.... I was speaking in very general terms, but my comment was more aimed at inexperienced jumpers who tend to copy more experienced jumpers, but without the skills necessary to execute the manouevre safely....and that inevitably leads to trouble.... You may be another one of those invincible skydivers Walt ( I've seen quite a few of them).... but Joe Junior Jumper who watches you do it and tries it himself, may not get away with it..... A huge number of accidents, fatalities and injuries these days are a result of contact with the ground as a result of an inappropriate contol input.....and the victims are often people of high experience who should know better.... It's not a matter of me thinking I'm invincible--I'm not. But BS is BS and saying that doing flat turns low to the ground will guarantee me an ambulance ride is BS. And I will certainly not take responsibility for anyone who tries to emulate what I do if they didn't bother to ask me or anyone else how I did it and how to learn it. We've known for many years that canopy training needs improvement and have only begun to address it. There isn't any mandatory training that results in people learning to fly a parachute beyond using the most basic control inputs and I see that as something to be addressed by education rather than scare tactics. In my opinion, there *should* be mandatory training that teaches people how to fly a parachute and that training needs to include flat turns. A few years back a jumper at my DZ died of injuries sustained from an off-DZ landing. Apparently a corner of his canopy was caught by a tree branch and spiraled him in. He was a conservative jumper and it wouldn't surprise me if he was following the mantra you preach of not maneuvering at all close to the ground. We'll never know for sure, though. Yes, avoiding that off-DZ landing would have been best, but sometimes you find yourself in a bad situation and you need to deal with it. I'm saying we need to give people the tools to deal with it, not scare them away from those tools. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #34 June 1, 2006 I agree with you, but they should only be taught these skills when they have the experience and skills to handle them..... For first jumpers though, and during their early career, it needs to be simple.....probably the best time would be when transiting off student gear onto their own.... And I never said we should not teach them how to avoid obstacles.....just they should be taught to recognise and avoid them early.....and all it should take is a small early toggle input......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpjunkie2004 0 #35 June 1, 2006 QuoteI'm saying we need to give people the tools to deal with it, not scare them away from those tools. As I've said before, I think there should be more emphasis on canopy control during the student training program. The "tools" should include knowing how to do flat turns and also knowing how to land your canopy downwind. Recently, at our DZ, our tetrahedron was stuck. Everyone was using it as a wind indicator and many people came in and landed downwind. The more experienced jumpers ran them out and a few people fell forward. There was dirty gear and bruised egos (I'm sure there were a few regular bruises as well). However, there were no serious injuries. I'm not recommending that we all run out and start landing downwind, and obviously if you have the skills to properly execute a flat turn - that is a better solution. Unfortunately, many newbies do not have much experience or practice with flat turns. I hope some newbies are reading this and they are learning something. There is so very valuable information in this thread.Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #36 June 1, 2006 QuoteI agree with you, but they should only be taught these skills when they have the experience and skills to handle them..... When does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #37 June 1, 2006 QuoteWhen does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? From bad decisions? I did landed from a turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #38 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhen does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? From bad decisions? I did landed from a turn. My point exactly. Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #39 June 1, 2006 QuoteMy point exactly. Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. I don't agree. You can get the basics on a FFC/student progression. "Land in the wind, Don't turn low" Most Ex-students (I've seen) not interested in having some jumps on canopy control, 1000m jumps are not cool and just waste of time and money. Landing accuracy and flat-turn are not as cool as FS or FF jumps. But at least we should learn from our mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #40 June 1, 2006 I answered that in my second sentence...when they transition off student canopies onto their own gear...probably around 20 -30 jumps..... By that stage they will have had some experience of landing a canopy, and will presumably be going to smaller faster canopies, where they will have to learn some new things anyway.....plus they will be jumping those canopies or smaller for quite a while.... ...as long as they don't bash themselves into the ground.... Students should learn basic skills and good habits, they it is much easier to refine their basic knowledge when they are through over amping about the initial skydives...... Its bloody hard to teach good habits if a person has already developed the bad ones..... Experienced jumpers have a big part to play...not least with the attitude and EXAMPLE they set....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #41 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteMy point exactly. Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. I don't agree. You can get the basics on a FFC/student progression. "Land in the wind, Don't turn low" Most Ex-students (I've seen) not interested in having some jumps on canopy control, 1000m jumps are not cool and just waste of time and money. Landing accuracy and flat-turn are not as cool as FS or FF jumps. But at least we should learn from our mistakes. IMO, the "basics" of canopy control should include fundamental survival skills and that includes flat turns. I don't care if they are considered cool or not. Canopy control skills prevent injuries and save lives. That's cool enough for me. Waste of time and money? I suppose you can balance that against the potential for injury if you don't learn canopy control skills and make an informed decision on whether you want to spend your time and money on that or not, but I think learning canopy control is anything but a waste. I've got 28 years in the sport and over 1500 skydives and I've never had to seek medical attention as the result of a skydiving-related injury. I'll admit that much of that is luck, but certainly some of it is due to having the skills to avoid obstacles while landing. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #42 June 1, 2006 QuoteI answered that in my second sentence...when they transition off student canopies onto their own gear...probably around 20 -30 jumps..... Makes sense to me. Quote Experienced jumpers have a big part to play...not least with the attitude and EXAMPLE they set.... I've gone 28 years and 1500+ jumps without getting hurt. Is that a good enough example? If you mean I should fly my canopy like I'm just off student status, that's not going to happen. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #43 June 1, 2006 QuoteDownwind in 30 MPH + a good PLF = no broken bones. Sounds like you did a good job, old school PLF. Still, people have died landing downwind like that, breaking their necks. A flat turn to even get crosswind would be my preference. Winds that high, though, it should be obvious which way to land, no questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #44 June 1, 2006 Quote IMO, the "basics" of canopy control should include fundamental survival skills and that includes flat turns. Imagine a student program with 38 levels to complete getting a C(non-student) license. You may graduate in 40-50 jumps. Basics of CC covers mostly what is a landing pattern and how to set it up and land into the wind. 2nd part of the program is about freefall skills. You may not squeeze more CC there. That's it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weegegirl 2 #45 June 1, 2006 Grrrrrr. This one totally bums me out. But for sure., a broken pelvis is much better than what could have happened. Going to the hospital to see him tonight. Wonder why he didn't flat turn. We were talking about this last night. We should have mandatory downwind days when the winds are about 5mph. If you can't land downwind on the canopy you are flying, you are flying the wrong canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #46 June 1, 2006 QuoteWhen does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. Walt Remember a few post's earlier I said "a skydiver still on student status perform a properly executed Flat Turn (low to the ground) in order to avoid a power line, remaining calm and keeping the canopy overhead the entire time, then intersect the ground in mid-turn, perform a PLF and walk away. The student had very limited experience performing this maneuver but the combination of study, limited practice and remaining calm made the difference for this individual”. Let me expand on this in just a little more detail and we will have our case in point. This was the girls FIRST solo after 2 Tandems, she had just finished taking the FJC a couple days prior. The individual Walt is referencing had 10 years, well over 1000 skydives and current – a really super duper nice person and missed for sure. A rigger, conservative in mannerism, canopy choice and WL. Being taught “old school” AFF he was taught the don’t turn low philosophy and never really advanced past the hands up hands down approach low to the ground, no one really to blame for this but himself but after all, he had confidence that given his conservative nature and piloting there was little that would go wrong, but when it did and he lowered a single toggle to his shoulder at around 100 feet he was no longer beneath his canopy and instantly decreased his odds of survival. In my limited experience I sense that teaching AFF students “Don’t turn low to the ground” breeds two distinct categories of canopy pilot - the hook turner (continues to learn) and the conservative who never learns evasive maneuvers low to the ground and incident reports seem to support this by having healthy numbers of fatalities in the “High Performance” and the “Evasive Maneuver” categories. In the student program where I work it is an 18 jump course with defined dive flows meticulously spelled for each level where freefall TLO’s are concerned as well as a detailed canopy control course. For every level of student skydive there are canopy skills the students must learn, must be trained on and must practice. Personally I learned in AFF and was taught very little in terms of canopy piloting, and when I first looked at the canopy training portion of this program I was aghast when I saw that Slow Flight, Flat Turns (Braked approach and Landing Practice) are taught on every level of the training program starting with the first solo, I thought it was too much too fast but what do I know? I was a newly rated instructor fresh off the Yharling and it is a good thing too because I may not have been so receptive to it otherwise. It did not take me long to believe in this system after seeing a first solo student have a properly executed flat turn executed after just practicing them for the first time on her own (I say on her own because the tandem instructor she had introduced Flat Turns to her on her second tandem) to save her ass from the power lines/poles. Granted, avoidance would have saved me a few grey hairs that day, and she went through the standard, through canopy training that our DZO insists his students be taught but shit happens, mistakes can be made and when the chips were down she was able to save her ass with beautiful execution. That being said, I am still not the most experienced instructor around with only 500 student jumps and teaching as much canopy control as our DZO has built into the training program takes a little more time but it is worth it because we are providing skills to young skydivers that become part of the foundation of survival skills that give those that are eager to learn a better start and those that are apathetic something they can draw on for years to come. Graduates of our training program are more advanced than I was at 100+ skydives. One of our recent graduates just a couple weeks ago with only 40 jumps had to execute a flat turn very low to prevent a collision with another canopy and she saved her ass (and his) with perfect execution, kept the canopy overhead the entire time. It felt good to see the program working... I have immense respect for the knowledge and experience both Walt and Tim possess and it goes to show that brilliant minds can have different philosophies that work equally as well and neither will work if the student does not apply themselves - there is more than one way to skin a hundred jump wonder. More later,Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,122 #47 June 1, 2006 It's really about giving people the ability to deal with situations -- if they're in a situation which they haven't thought about, then realtime execution can end up in panic. If they're thought about the situation and even rehearsed for it, or practiced the skills, then they won't spend as much time thinking about a solution. It's the same reason why people tell new motorcycle riders to take the MSF class; you get to spend a weekend riding someone else's lightweight bike on gravel, over obstacles (they had us do a 4X4), swerving around obstacles, braking in a turn -- all the things that can freak you out the first time you do them. That's why time spent prepping the student is never wasted. Get them to think in their own mind about how they're going to deal with possible situations, and then they'll have the brain cells left over to deal with the small pieces that don't match what they trained. I'm a huge fan of having brain cells left over. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #48 June 1, 2006 Brain Cells? We are talking about skydivers right? Mom says anyone who jumps from airplanes must not have too many brain cells left... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #49 June 1, 2006 I've gone 28 years and 1500+ jumps without getting hurt. Is that a good enough example? One of the four fatalities this last horrid weekend was a guy with 3000+ jumps who was killed making a 180 degree turn at 100 ft under a perfectly open canopy. All the experience in the world is no protection against one dumb move. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #50 June 1, 2006 Quote I've gone 28 years and 1500+ jumps without getting hurt. Is that a good enough example? One of the four fatalities this last horrid weekend was a guy with 3000+ jumps who was killed making a 180 degree turn at 100 ft under a perfectly open canopy. All the experience in the world is no protection against one dumb move. Good reason not to make dumb moves. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #29 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote Every first jumper I've ever trained has had it drilled into their head that turns close to the ground WILLl result in injury.....they must be flying straight on touchdown, under control.....even if it means hitting an obstacle.....and being under control is most important....it gives you time to prepare for the landing.... Of the 10,000 + first jumpers I've trained, I've never had one injure themself landing in a turn.... In a turn, the parachute is not acting as a parachute, it is falling out of the sky.... To the person who states flat turns are OK.....you just keep tryig them then...I guarantee you'll get a ride in an ambulance at some stage.... And there is an Easter bunny and a Santa Claus. Don't forget to tell them about the Tooth Fairy too. Huh? I don't quite get this post... maybe I'm just being dense. Could you elaborate? Sure. He is guaranteeing me an ambulance ride for something that I do routinely and have for quite a few years. I agree with him that *clearly* the thing to do is avoid obstacles by making small corrections way before you are in close proximity to them, but that's not always an option. For example, if you are on final into a tight landing area and another canopy suddenly appears in your path or, in the case of a demo, a person gets in your path. Or the case where sudden wind changes put you in a place you really don't want to be, but don't give you a lot of choice in the matter. My point is that things do not always go according to plan and sometimes you need to do avoidance maneuvers close to the ground. It can easily become a choice between getting hurt for sure, by doing nothing, or maybe coming out of it ok by doing a flat turn. The original post was regarding downwind landing vs. low turn. In most cases, taking the downwind landing is ok advice, but saying that flat turns will guarantee an ambulance ride is ridiculous. Sometimes, they are the only reasonable option. Learning to do them properly is a good thing and I think that using scare tactics so people will avoid them is not a good thing. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #30 June 1, 2006 Quotesaying that flat turns will guarantee an ambulance ride is ridiculous. Sometimes, they are the only reasonable option. Learning to do them properly is a good thing and I think that using scare tactics so people will avoid them is not a good thing. Walt Quite possibly the wisest comment ever made! I couldent agree more. Applause...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #31 June 1, 2006 Downwind. I made a stupid student error and landed downwind. Just got a bunch of grass stains. I landed downwind once again at around jump 140 because I was confused by traffic (I was at almost the same altitude as someone else who wasn't following an expected pattern) - I ran it out and stood it up Probably a 5mph downwinder. Nobody at the dropzone noticed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #32 June 1, 2006 Maybe I need to clarify things a little.... I was speaking in very general terms, but my comment was more aimed at inexperienced jumpers who tend to copy more experienced jumpers, but without the skills necessary to execute the manouevre safely....and that inevitably leads to trouble.... You may be another one of those invincible skydivers Walt ( I've seen quite a few of them).... but Joe Junior Jumper who watches you do it and tries it himself, may not get away with it..... A huge number of accidents, fatalities and injuries these days are a result of contact with the ground as a result of an inappropriate contol input.....and the victims are often people of high experience who should know better.... That suggests to me that the whole landing part of training (generally) could do with some serious attention.....hell, a lot of canopy control landing is over in 30 seconds...."listen to the radio".... Off the radio.....sorry buddy, you're on your own..... An earlier poster suggested that the dangers of turning close to the ground should be part of first jump training. I agree and was merely pointing out that it is part of my canopy control training....but I also put a lot of emphasis on keeping a lookout and preparing for landing early...at 1000 feet they should begin preparations for landing (i.e. looking and selecting a safe area to land), at 500 feet they need to be tuned in to it totally..... The important thing for them to understand is to land safely, wherever that may be......but if they do get into a tight situation they must not freak out but land under control..... In short they should never get into a sticky situation in the first place, but if they do, a normal landing flare, under control, will 9 times out of 10 see them walk away OK, or at least minimise any damage to themselves....The 292 sq feet student canopy saves a lot of grief....and is forgiving when landed correctly...... I do NOT want my students trying avoidance manoeuvres close to the ground, apart from minor toggle inputs (maybe 5 degrees at a time). None of my first jumpers has ever landed in a turn, very few have ever landed on an obstacle, and none have injured themselves in this manner, and this goes for the many who have progressed a long way in skydiving..... I think that this proves the point that better canopy control should be a feature of first jump training...the jump isn't over till one is safely on the ground, and its the last half inch of the jump that can hurt the most. Having to teach students how to flat turn is, to my mind, an admission that you haven't taught them avoidance techniques properly in the first place, and there are too many variables to make it foolproof.....lots of fools out there..... And over egging the pudding when it comes to outlining the consequences of a stupid landing manoeuvre is harmless, if it gives them a healthy respect for the hard hard ground..... Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy fear..... But I guess the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy are pretty invincible....Santa is on automatic pilot.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #33 June 1, 2006 Quote Maybe I need to clarify things a little.... I was speaking in very general terms, but my comment was more aimed at inexperienced jumpers who tend to copy more experienced jumpers, but without the skills necessary to execute the manouevre safely....and that inevitably leads to trouble.... You may be another one of those invincible skydivers Walt ( I've seen quite a few of them).... but Joe Junior Jumper who watches you do it and tries it himself, may not get away with it..... A huge number of accidents, fatalities and injuries these days are a result of contact with the ground as a result of an inappropriate contol input.....and the victims are often people of high experience who should know better.... It's not a matter of me thinking I'm invincible--I'm not. But BS is BS and saying that doing flat turns low to the ground will guarantee me an ambulance ride is BS. And I will certainly not take responsibility for anyone who tries to emulate what I do if they didn't bother to ask me or anyone else how I did it and how to learn it. We've known for many years that canopy training needs improvement and have only begun to address it. There isn't any mandatory training that results in people learning to fly a parachute beyond using the most basic control inputs and I see that as something to be addressed by education rather than scare tactics. In my opinion, there *should* be mandatory training that teaches people how to fly a parachute and that training needs to include flat turns. A few years back a jumper at my DZ died of injuries sustained from an off-DZ landing. Apparently a corner of his canopy was caught by a tree branch and spiraled him in. He was a conservative jumper and it wouldn't surprise me if he was following the mantra you preach of not maneuvering at all close to the ground. We'll never know for sure, though. Yes, avoiding that off-DZ landing would have been best, but sometimes you find yourself in a bad situation and you need to deal with it. I'm saying we need to give people the tools to deal with it, not scare them away from those tools. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #34 June 1, 2006 I agree with you, but they should only be taught these skills when they have the experience and skills to handle them..... For first jumpers though, and during their early career, it needs to be simple.....probably the best time would be when transiting off student gear onto their own.... And I never said we should not teach them how to avoid obstacles.....just they should be taught to recognise and avoid them early.....and all it should take is a small early toggle input......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpjunkie2004 0 #35 June 1, 2006 QuoteI'm saying we need to give people the tools to deal with it, not scare them away from those tools. As I've said before, I think there should be more emphasis on canopy control during the student training program. The "tools" should include knowing how to do flat turns and also knowing how to land your canopy downwind. Recently, at our DZ, our tetrahedron was stuck. Everyone was using it as a wind indicator and many people came in and landed downwind. The more experienced jumpers ran them out and a few people fell forward. There was dirty gear and bruised egos (I'm sure there were a few regular bruises as well). However, there were no serious injuries. I'm not recommending that we all run out and start landing downwind, and obviously if you have the skills to properly execute a flat turn - that is a better solution. Unfortunately, many newbies do not have much experience or practice with flat turns. I hope some newbies are reading this and they are learning something. There is so very valuable information in this thread.Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #36 June 1, 2006 QuoteI agree with you, but they should only be taught these skills when they have the experience and skills to handle them..... When does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #37 June 1, 2006 QuoteWhen does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? From bad decisions? I did landed from a turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #38 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhen does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? From bad decisions? I did landed from a turn. My point exactly. Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #39 June 1, 2006 QuoteMy point exactly. Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. I don't agree. You can get the basics on a FFC/student progression. "Land in the wind, Don't turn low" Most Ex-students (I've seen) not interested in having some jumps on canopy control, 1000m jumps are not cool and just waste of time and money. Landing accuracy and flat-turn are not as cool as FS or FF jumps. But at least we should learn from our mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #40 June 1, 2006 I answered that in my second sentence...when they transition off student canopies onto their own gear...probably around 20 -30 jumps..... By that stage they will have had some experience of landing a canopy, and will presumably be going to smaller faster canopies, where they will have to learn some new things anyway.....plus they will be jumping those canopies or smaller for quite a while.... ...as long as they don't bash themselves into the ground.... Students should learn basic skills and good habits, they it is much easier to refine their basic knowledge when they are through over amping about the initial skydives...... Its bloody hard to teach good habits if a person has already developed the bad ones..... Experienced jumpers have a big part to play...not least with the attitude and EXAMPLE they set....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #41 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteMy point exactly. Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. I don't agree. You can get the basics on a FFC/student progression. "Land in the wind, Don't turn low" Most Ex-students (I've seen) not interested in having some jumps on canopy control, 1000m jumps are not cool and just waste of time and money. Landing accuracy and flat-turn are not as cool as FS or FF jumps. But at least we should learn from our mistakes. IMO, the "basics" of canopy control should include fundamental survival skills and that includes flat turns. I don't care if they are considered cool or not. Canopy control skills prevent injuries and save lives. That's cool enough for me. Waste of time and money? I suppose you can balance that against the potential for injury if you don't learn canopy control skills and make an informed decision on whether you want to spend your time and money on that or not, but I think learning canopy control is anything but a waste. I've got 28 years in the sport and over 1500 skydives and I've never had to seek medical attention as the result of a skydiving-related injury. I'll admit that much of that is luck, but certainly some of it is due to having the skills to avoid obstacles while landing. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #42 June 1, 2006 QuoteI answered that in my second sentence...when they transition off student canopies onto their own gear...probably around 20 -30 jumps..... Makes sense to me. Quote Experienced jumpers have a big part to play...not least with the attitude and EXAMPLE they set.... I've gone 28 years and 1500+ jumps without getting hurt. Is that a good enough example? If you mean I should fly my canopy like I'm just off student status, that's not going to happen. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #43 June 1, 2006 QuoteDownwind in 30 MPH + a good PLF = no broken bones. Sounds like you did a good job, old school PLF. Still, people have died landing downwind like that, breaking their necks. A flat turn to even get crosswind would be my preference. Winds that high, though, it should be obvious which way to land, no questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #44 June 1, 2006 Quote IMO, the "basics" of canopy control should include fundamental survival skills and that includes flat turns. Imagine a student program with 38 levels to complete getting a C(non-student) license. You may graduate in 40-50 jumps. Basics of CC covers mostly what is a landing pattern and how to set it up and land into the wind. 2nd part of the program is about freefall skills. You may not squeeze more CC there. That's it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #45 June 1, 2006 Grrrrrr. This one totally bums me out. But for sure., a broken pelvis is much better than what could have happened. Going to the hospital to see him tonight. Wonder why he didn't flat turn. We were talking about this last night. We should have mandatory downwind days when the winds are about 5mph. If you can't land downwind on the canopy you are flying, you are flying the wrong canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #46 June 1, 2006 QuoteWhen does someone have the experience and skills to learn canopy control and how do they get that experience and skill? Teaching fundamental canopy skills *after* they are needed is too late, IMO. Walt Remember a few post's earlier I said "a skydiver still on student status perform a properly executed Flat Turn (low to the ground) in order to avoid a power line, remaining calm and keeping the canopy overhead the entire time, then intersect the ground in mid-turn, perform a PLF and walk away. The student had very limited experience performing this maneuver but the combination of study, limited practice and remaining calm made the difference for this individual”. Let me expand on this in just a little more detail and we will have our case in point. This was the girls FIRST solo after 2 Tandems, she had just finished taking the FJC a couple days prior. The individual Walt is referencing had 10 years, well over 1000 skydives and current – a really super duper nice person and missed for sure. A rigger, conservative in mannerism, canopy choice and WL. Being taught “old school” AFF he was taught the don’t turn low philosophy and never really advanced past the hands up hands down approach low to the ground, no one really to blame for this but himself but after all, he had confidence that given his conservative nature and piloting there was little that would go wrong, but when it did and he lowered a single toggle to his shoulder at around 100 feet he was no longer beneath his canopy and instantly decreased his odds of survival. In my limited experience I sense that teaching AFF students “Don’t turn low to the ground” breeds two distinct categories of canopy pilot - the hook turner (continues to learn) and the conservative who never learns evasive maneuvers low to the ground and incident reports seem to support this by having healthy numbers of fatalities in the “High Performance” and the “Evasive Maneuver” categories. In the student program where I work it is an 18 jump course with defined dive flows meticulously spelled for each level where freefall TLO’s are concerned as well as a detailed canopy control course. For every level of student skydive there are canopy skills the students must learn, must be trained on and must practice. Personally I learned in AFF and was taught very little in terms of canopy piloting, and when I first looked at the canopy training portion of this program I was aghast when I saw that Slow Flight, Flat Turns (Braked approach and Landing Practice) are taught on every level of the training program starting with the first solo, I thought it was too much too fast but what do I know? I was a newly rated instructor fresh off the Yharling and it is a good thing too because I may not have been so receptive to it otherwise. It did not take me long to believe in this system after seeing a first solo student have a properly executed flat turn executed after just practicing them for the first time on her own (I say on her own because the tandem instructor she had introduced Flat Turns to her on her second tandem) to save her ass from the power lines/poles. Granted, avoidance would have saved me a few grey hairs that day, and she went through the standard, through canopy training that our DZO insists his students be taught but shit happens, mistakes can be made and when the chips were down she was able to save her ass with beautiful execution. That being said, I am still not the most experienced instructor around with only 500 student jumps and teaching as much canopy control as our DZO has built into the training program takes a little more time but it is worth it because we are providing skills to young skydivers that become part of the foundation of survival skills that give those that are eager to learn a better start and those that are apathetic something they can draw on for years to come. Graduates of our training program are more advanced than I was at 100+ skydives. One of our recent graduates just a couple weeks ago with only 40 jumps had to execute a flat turn very low to prevent a collision with another canopy and she saved her ass (and his) with perfect execution, kept the canopy overhead the entire time. It felt good to see the program working... I have immense respect for the knowledge and experience both Walt and Tim possess and it goes to show that brilliant minds can have different philosophies that work equally as well and neither will work if the student does not apply themselves - there is more than one way to skin a hundred jump wonder. More later,Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,122 #47 June 1, 2006 It's really about giving people the ability to deal with situations -- if they're in a situation which they haven't thought about, then realtime execution can end up in panic. If they're thought about the situation and even rehearsed for it, or practiced the skills, then they won't spend as much time thinking about a solution. It's the same reason why people tell new motorcycle riders to take the MSF class; you get to spend a weekend riding someone else's lightweight bike on gravel, over obstacles (they had us do a 4X4), swerving around obstacles, braking in a turn -- all the things that can freak you out the first time you do them. That's why time spent prepping the student is never wasted. Get them to think in their own mind about how they're going to deal with possible situations, and then they'll have the brain cells left over to deal with the small pieces that don't match what they trained. I'm a huge fan of having brain cells left over. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #48 June 1, 2006 Brain Cells? We are talking about skydivers right? Mom says anyone who jumps from airplanes must not have too many brain cells left... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #49 June 1, 2006 I've gone 28 years and 1500+ jumps without getting hurt. Is that a good enough example? One of the four fatalities this last horrid weekend was a guy with 3000+ jumps who was killed making a 180 degree turn at 100 ft under a perfectly open canopy. All the experience in the world is no protection against one dumb move. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #50 June 1, 2006 Quote I've gone 28 years and 1500+ jumps without getting hurt. Is that a good enough example? One of the four fatalities this last horrid weekend was a guy with 3000+ jumps who was killed making a 180 degree turn at 100 ft under a perfectly open canopy. All the experience in the world is no protection against one dumb move. Good reason not to make dumb moves. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
