2 out/cutaway at Perris

[Frenchy68 0]

Today (Sunday) at Perris. Garet, my close friend and Jumping partner chopped his main after a 2 out situation. Landed safely and uneventfully in the peas under his reserve.
What happened:
2nd jump of the day. After giving him a gear check before the 1st jump, I noticed and mentioned to him that maybe the reserve pin was a tinny bit "short" (ie distance from closing loop to tip of pin), but not by much in my opinion. 1st jump was very uneventful.
I gave him a gear check before the 2nd jump. Same situation with the pin (no worse). In the Skyvan, lots of moving around (bunch of solos, different pull altitude, belly down/sit/head down, etc...). He got a pin check, but found out later (once on the ground) that the jumper who checked on him only looked at his main pin, and never checked the reserve pin. He and I did a 2 way. Thing is, it was botched, and we never made contact. Never came closer to each other than maybe 8 feet. We broke away at around 6k, tracked. I pulled at 4k, he tells me he pulled lower than that, but definitely above 3k. He told me that as we was watching his main getting perfectly inflated, he all of sudden felt a jolt, and saw that "big yellow thing that didn't belong there" (in his words). 2 out biplane (front/back), he chopped the main pretty much right away. He had a good landing. I kept a visual with the main, which ended up landing in the DZ. Free bag was chased by (the other) Nick. Eventually, Tim retrieved everything except the Reserve handle (and is probably enjoying his free BUD as I type...).
Not quite sure what happened there. I can only speculate that the reserve pin was somehow dislodged during the ride up to altitude.
Which would mean: PIN CHECK = CHECK BOTH PINS!!!
And maybe my bad for not telling him to take the rig to a rigger for safety...

Nick

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[bluewaterstream 0]

Why did he cut away the main right away?

Was the biplane not flying stable?

What size main and what size reserve?

[Frenchy68 0]

"Why did he cut away the main right away? "
According to what he told me, because 2 canopies being out didn't seem like the right thing to be. Probably a reflex type of reaction.
"Was the biplane not flying stable?"
Not sure it got as far as him finding out whether it was stable or not. I believe he chopped right after the reserve was deployed.
"What size main and what size reserve?"
Main= Sabre II 170, reserve=PD 143. He's wearing 5lbs of weights on this jump. He weights about 125lbs (+/- 145 lbs exit weight+weight belt).

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[ryoder 1,400]

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Eventually, Tim retrieved everything except the Reserve handle (and is probably enjoying his free BUD as I type...).

Why did he pull the reserve???

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[diablopilot 2]

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Why did he pull the reserve???

Probably because it's taught you ALWAYS complete the emergency procedure. Pull the handle even if the canopy is open.

Of course droping it ain't the smoothest thing to do after you've got an open canopy, but better that than not completing the procedure.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[helldog 0]

I Was wondering if he disconnected his RSL before chopping the main. (if he has one on his rig).
Blue ones
Jim

[bigway 4]

in an ideal world you would check both pins but i am pretty sure that harldy anyone checks their reserve pin before exiting the aircraft. i check my own main pin by a feel of the loop and the pin. i use to have someone check my reserve pin when i was a student but now only check both pins when i pack and before i put my gear on and have it checked before i get in the plane. i doubt many people check their reserve pin before exit. I am curious as to if many do. i know students do as that what you are taught. The key is NOT to move in the plane until you get on your knees at the last 1000 feet. glad your mates alright but he doesn't seem to care much about your opinion of the short pin in the reserve. Maybe he had a hard opening that jolted the pin. Maybe if he is getting a pin check he should listen to you. or maybe you should have told him not to jump it.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Newbie 0]

i think if asked for a pin check in the plane, best to confirm with the jumper you are checking that they want you to check their reserve pin. Some might only want a main pin check.

As bigway mentioned, best to say to the jumper while on the ground. If you are unsure, ask the CCI or DZ control or any other Instructor on the ground to confirm.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[dgrabowski 4]

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... 2 out biplane (front/back), he chopped the main pretty much right away.

What for??

From the PD dual square report: "Intentional cutaways from biplanes showed that the main had the possibility of engangling with the reserve 11 out of 11 times"

We are taught to NOT chop from a biplane. I can only guess the experience of your friend as being somewhat similar to yours, so this training was probably fairly recent. I think that your friend got lucky in this particular incident, and that he should probably speak with an instructor or S&TA to review what the proper procedures are for dealing with two out.

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've known people that have died from chopping the main on a biplane. The chance of entanglement is very high. Don't do it.

The short reserve pin should have been fixed on the first jump. Was his reserve cable too short? I've seen that cause short pins and inadvertent openings. Was the pin protection on his rig inadequate? Most rigs today protect the pins well, but you still see an old rig or two where the reserve pin peeks out occasionally.

Pulling the reserve handle after the canopy is out is a waste of time. There are many different situations that can happen in skydiving. A "one technique fits all situations" mentality is not the best way to go. Think about what is going on.

I may sound harsh, but the ground is even worse. I'm glad your friend is okay.

[Frenchy68 0]

The RSL was not disconnected. The reserve was already depolying when he cut away.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Frenchy68 0]

He probably should have had a rigger sign off on the pin (and I should have insisted he did). However, although I thought the pin was a little "short", it looked very safely jumpable to me. I have pointed such "short" pins to experienced jumpers in the past, who told me it was fine. I guess it is NOT fine...
I would suspect that the pin did get pushed out some more during the ride to alt.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Frenchy68 0]

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Quote

... 2 out biplane (front/back), he chopped the main pretty much right away.

What for??

From the PD dual square report: "Intentional cutaways from biplanes showed that the main had the possibility of engangling with the reserve 11 out of 11 times"

We are taught to NOT chop from a biplane. I can only guess the experience of your friend as being somewhat similar to yours, so this training was probably fairly recent. I think that your friend got lucky in this particular incident, and that he should probably speak with an instructor or S&TA to review what the proper procedures are for dealing with two out.

According to what he told me, he chopped the main as a reflex to seeing something going wrong above him. I don't think there was much assessment time involved.
Yes, we were taught not to mess with a stable bi plane.
But I do not know for sure whether the reserve was stably deployed when he chopped, or whether it was deploying (SIM seems to preconise different courses of action between the 2 different events)
And yes, there was a thorough de-briefing by the S&TA.
"If it's opened and flying nicely, stick with it"

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Frenchy68 0]

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I've known people that have died from chopping the main on a biplane. The chance of entanglement is very high. Don't do it.

The short reserve pin should have been fixed on the first jump. Was his reserve cable too short? I've seen that cause short pins and inadvertent openings. Was the pin protection on his rig inadequate? Most rigs today protect the pins well, but you still see an old rig or two where the reserve pin peeks out occasionally.

Pulling the reserve handle after the canopy is out is a waste of time. There are many different situations that can happen in skydiving. A "one technique fits all situations" mentality is not the best way to go. Think about what is going on.

I may sound harsh, but the ground is even worse. I'm glad your friend is okay.

Agree with all the above. So does my friend.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Jimbo 0]

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He probably should have had a rigger sign off on the pin (and I should have insisted he did).

You keep saying that you should have done this, you should have done that - Did HE check the pin on the ground? His gear is his responsibility. It's nice that you warned him that the pin looked short, but if didn't take your warning to heart, well, that's not your problem.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[bluewaterstream 0]

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... 2 out biplane (front/back), he chopped the main pretty much right away.

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What for??

From the PD dual square report: "Intentional cutaways from biplanes showed that the main had the possibility of engangling with the reserve 11 out of 11 times"

We are taught to NOT chop from a biplane. I can only guess the experience of your friend as being somewhat similar to yours, so this training was probably fairly recent. I think that your friend got lucky in this particular incident, and that he should probably speak with an instructor or S&TA to review what the proper procedures are for dealing with two out.

Exactly what I was thinking.

It sounds like his friend never gave the biplane a chance to see if it was going to fly stable. Odds are it would have flown stable and that it would have been safer to simply land the biplane. I'm glad it worked out for him.

I think the only time that it's really acceptable to cut away that quickly from a two out situation is if the canopies begin to downplane.

[Frenchy68 0]

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He probably should have had a rigger sign off on the pin (and I should have insisted he did).

You keep saying that you should have done this, you should have done that - Did HE check the pin on the ground? His gear is his responsibility. It's nice that you warned him that the pin looked short, but if didn't take your warning to heart, well, that's not your problem.

-
Jim

Once again, it looked safe to me. He DID check it on the ground prior to his second jump, and felt the same. It obviously wasn't. Or something really did happen in the plane. Probably a combination of both.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[bigway 4]

good to see you can take critisicim.
With your little experience(not dissing your jump numbers)you should not be guessing the correct pin size. you say it looked short and then you say it looks fine. if he is not going to listen to you refuse to do his gear checks. he might need the load master doing his checks. Always restrict movement in the plane. i have been taught that there is no movement in the plane until the last 1000ft. this works well. He is lucky to be alive and when you have an inflated, square parachute above your head you always have time to think about your reactions. i have had lines tied around my body in freefall and had time to think about how i was going to get out of this. he needs to go over some safety drills with your safety officer and needs to be verbaly tested on so me emergency procedures and scenarios. I like your friend use to think you chop on a bi plane, i also thought if not you control it a way it is not to be controled. i only learnt different when my safety officer quized me on scenarios around jump 40. It is not embarrassing to ask for more teaching. it safes your life. Make sure the both of you talk to a safety officer about emergency's. Just because you think you may know how to handle this situation next time does not mean you know the others. do you know how to handle a horse shoe mal? or accidental deployment at 10,000ft? go and ask to go over all these situations again to make sure. Do not ask here or jumpers, ask your safety officer.
good on you for taking critisicim.
peace,
Bigway

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Frenchy68 0]

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good to see you can take critisicim.
With your little experience(not dissing your jump numbers)you should not be guessing the correct pin size. you say it looked short and then you say it looks fine. if he is not going to listen to you refuse to do his gear checks. he might need the load master doing his checks. Always restrict movement in the plane. i have been taught that there is no movement in the plane until the last 1000ft. this works well. He is lucky to be alive and when you have an inflated, square parachute above your head you always have time to think about your reactions. i have had lines tied around my body in freefall and had time to think about how i was going to get out of this. he needs to go over some safety drills with your safety officer and needs to be verbaly tested on so me emergency procedures and scenarios. I like your friend use to think you chop on a bi plane, i also thought if not you control it a way it is not to be controled. i only learnt different when my safety officer quized me on scenarios around jump 40. It is not embarrassing to ask for more teaching. it safes your life. Make sure the both of you talk to a safety officer about emergency's. Just because you think you may know how to handle this situation next time does not mean you know the others. do you know how to handle a horse shoe mal? or accidental deployment at 10,000ft? go and ask to go over all these situations again to make sure. Do not ask here or jumpers, ask your safety officer.
good on you for taking critisicim.
peace,
Bigway

Thanks for all the useful advices.
To set the record straight: my friend did NOT IGNORE my comment. We both felt it was safe to jump (which obviously was the wrong decision to make). This was based on other occurences where the pin was at least that "short", and we were told by rigger(s) to proceed with the jump. I tend to be anal about how things look, and decided to mention to him that it could be further in. Once again, my friend is not a hot head who does what he feels like doing regardless of other people's advices. He and I did catch a reserve pin ready to pop free at the first sneeze once. We also spend quite some tome at the DZ everytime we go asking questions to instructors.
What I have learned (and he as well I believe) is that in the future, even if it looks safe, we'll skip the load and take it to the loft to have it inspected more throroughly.
I totally agree about the no movement in the plane bit. Especially after what happened yesterday. Our load was quite a mess, and there was a lot of musical chair being played at around 8,000 ft. I am very concerned that something happened at this point.
But definitely a lesson learned the hard way, and luckily without harm to anybody.
Thanks for all the always usefull feedback.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."