Operating a Plane Without Flaps?

[karenmeal 0]

Is it safe to continue to fly a plane without functional flaps?

I don't know much about flying planes.. but this just sounds like a bad plan to me. I would imagine that it would make dealing with emergency situations very hard.. but I don't really know one way or the other.

Any pilots have input?

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[MF42 0]

It depends on what kind of flying and what kind of plane. Both takeoff and landing distances will be increased.

Matt

[karenmeal 0]

182 for skydiving.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[slotperfect 7]

Disclaimer: I am a non-current rookie Private Pilot with only 70 hours.

1) When I was learning to fly at night, my Instructor had me set up an approach for the grass runway at our local airport (it is very long and wide). As I was doing my pre-landing checks, he told me my flap motor was burned out and my landing/taxi lights were inop. After I got the 172 configured as best as I could for landing, he asked me if I could handle it. I put it down successfully, with a little helpful coaching from him, and it turned out to be one of the best experiences of my flight training. He intentionally put me into an emergency situation where Murphy had added to the pile of things that contributed to the situation.

Quite often after that, I would takeoff and land (on the 5500 FT paved runway) without flaps on purpose just for the training value. I even think my evaluator had me land without flaps on my checkride.

2) With my limited experience I would not intentionally takeoff without functional flaps, unless it was just to get the airplane home for repair. I would first consult the FAR/AIM to make sure that was legal, and make sure that all other conditions (weather, etc.) were conductive to safely making the flight.

My two inexperienced cents.

Arrive Safely

John

[MF42 0]

With the caveat that I have never been a jump pilot, I think as long as you've got sufficient runway for a faster than usual takeoff then it should be ok.

Matt

[JohnMitchell 14]

You'll need more runway, coming and going, because your takeoff and landing speeds will be higher. Also, your final approach will be shallower, so clearing approach end obstacles will be harder.

[kallend 1,635]

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Is it safe to continue to fly a plane without functional flaps?

I don't know much about flying planes.. but this just sounds like a bad plan to me. I would imagine that it would make dealing with emergency situations very hard.. but I don't really know one way or the other.

Any pilots have input?

-Karen

During my pilot training and during checkout for my current plane, I was required to demonstrate operating the plane safely without flaps.

In strong gusty winds, many planes are safer landed with no flaps deployed - see the plane's handbook for specific information.

Not all plane handbooks specify flaps for normal take-offs (my old Cherokee only specified flaps for short or soft field take-offs).

Finally, there are many planes that do not have flaps at all (Piper Cub, Pitts Special...).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[karenmeal 0]

So it's ok to continue to use a plane without functional flaps for skydiving operations?

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[kallend 1,635]

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So it's ok to continue to use a plane without functional flaps for skydiving operations?

That depends on the type certificate and the information in the plane's handbook (POH). Could be for that model it's OK as long as the flaps arre placarded INOP, could be that for that aircraft operational flaps are required as a condition of airworthiness. Would have to look at the POH to know for sure. I certainly wouldn't want to be landing on a short runway on a high density altitude day at full gross weight without flaps (assuming the plane has them).

Anything on MY plane that doesn't work is fixed at the earliest possible opportunity!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[akjmpplt 0]

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So it's ok to continue to use a plane without functional flaps for skydiving operations?

Short answer is NO. If the flaps are not functioning properly then the aircraft is considered non-airworthy and it is not legal to fly it.

Legality aside IMO you'd be pushing to fly the airplane without flaps. If the runway is of sufficient length you can takeoff and land fine in a 182 without flaps. But suppose the engine fails shortly after takeoff and you have to make an off-airport landing? You'll then be wishing you had the flaps since you will be able to touch down much, much slower with flaps than without. No flap off field landing would have a much higher risk of injury/death/aircraft damage.

Fix the flaps, they're not that hard to fix.

SmugMug

[SkydiveJack 1]

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Is it safe to continue to fly a plane without functional flaps?

Any pilots have input?

-Karen

NO. It is not safe to do it. And if I was at a DZ where this is happening I would put my gear in the car, drive off and never go back.

With enough runway the C-182 can take off and land without them BUT, in an emergency off field landing situation your airspeed needs to be higher to prevent a stall. Plus your ground speed will be faster and increase the chances of a bad outcome for people on board when you land.

The flaps must be operable for the aircraft to be considered airworthy for commercial operations. If someone tells you differently they are a liar and a fool.

[karenmeal 0]

Thank-you.

I had several people tell me that it was no big deal.

But my thoughts were.. what happens when something unexpected takes place and the plane doesn't have flaps? Are deadstick landings as safe without flaps as they are with flaps? I can't possibly believe that flaps wouldn't make a huge difference in those sorts of circumstances.

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[kallend 1,635]

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Is it safe to continue to fly a plane without functional flaps?

Any pilots have input?

-Karen

NO. It's is not safe to do it. And if I was at a DZ where this is happening I would put my gear in the car, drive off and never go back.

.

Are you saying that Piper Cubs, which do not have functioning flaps, are not safe to fly?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shropshire 0]

Isn't that because they were designed without them.... not because they have them, but they dont work?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SkydiveJack 1]

Are you saying that Piper Cubs, which do not have functioning flaps, are not safe to fly?

[tombuch 0]

I've made more than 4,500 jumps from all types of aircraft, and I'm a commercial pilot.

I'll go with MOSTLY NO, but maybe sometimes yes.

If the aircraft is designed for flight without flaps and the runway is appropriate for that type of flight, then it should be OK to not use working flaps. Legally, for commercial operations, any installed equipment must be operational, so in most cases involving skydiving with broken flaps I'd say 'no flaps' should be a 'no fly.'

You specify a 182. In that case, if you were flying at a mega airport it wouldn't be a big deal to not use the flaps from a safety standpoint, but if they were inop, it probably wouldn't be legal.

Now, a 182 at a standard small skydiving airport...flaps should be operational, and should almost always be used. In some cases a pilot may elect not to use the flaps, and that's not always a big deal, but if they aren't working, I'd stay out of the airplane. In most cases skydiving 182's are being operated at near maximum gross weight, from small runways, with less than ideal temperatures and winds. That all adds risk, so flaps should be in working order.

If the DZO or pilot told you the flaps were broken, but continued to conduct skydiving operations anyway, I'd say you should find a new pilot or a new drop zone.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[bob.dino 0]

Do you know if 182s use flaps on jump-run?

[JumpShipGypsy 0]

No, you dont use flaps on jump run in a 182. isnt 60 slow enough?


Anyone ever hear of a Minimum Equipment List?

[btucker 0]

I know of a PAC750 that regularly does take off's with zero flaps given a light load. Albeit that is a different kettle of fish from flying with broken flaps...

Blue Dreams Benno

[Speed2000 0]

Normally no, however, the IRM recommends one notch of flaps for IAD CAT A and B jumps out of C-182s to ensure the pilot chute passes under the horizontal stabilizer.

[kkeenan 13]

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Are you saying that Piper Cubs, which do not have functioning flaps, are not safe to fly?

I think they're saying that making an off-airport, engine-out landing with a full load of jumpers aboard could be very dangerous without the use of the flaps.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[LearningTOfly 0]

A Cub drags its tail around, and stalls at about 35 m/h... which makes it an entirely different case altogether.

[kallend 1,635]

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Are you saying that Piper Cubs, which do not have functioning flaps, are not safe to fly?

I think they're saying that making an off-airport, engine-out landing with a full load of jumpers aboard could be very dangerous without the use of the flaps.

Kevin

It could be very dangerous with the full use of flaps too. Off airport engine-out landings at full gross are generally dangerous.

Flaps on a C182 reduce stall speed from 62kt to 54kt, so while an off-landing at 54kt is preferable to 62kt, it is still no guarantee of survival.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[riggerrob 558]

That all depends upon the type of aircraft and length of runway.
A Cessna 182 with a long runway is not a big deal. I would only operate a flap-less Cessna for a day two until parts and shop time were available.

At the other end of the scale, a King Air might not be able to take off from a short runway without flaps.

[DaveCogan 0]

If the runway is very long there is no added risk for any phase of the flight EXCEPT if the pilot is suddenly faced with an engine failure and has to land the plane in a paddock etc.

In the unlikely event of being on-board an aircraft and having to make a forced landing without power I sure as hell would be wishing the pilot had working flaps to lower the stall speed (Vs) and lower the approach and landing speeds if that paddock just isn't quiet long enough.

Dave Cogan