turtlespeed 212 #1 June 30, 2004 I don't post in the serious threads very much - But I do read alot of them. This situation is somewhat unique - but only because of my inexperiance, I am assuming. I asked a jumper the other day what they had been doing - They said they were flying a camera - I get the impression that they went to a different DZ because they were told to wait a bit and increse the jump numbers before they started flying camera. What would the recomendation be for what to say to this person? I went with a camera at right at 200 jumps (I still don't think I was ready - but I got away with it) - this jumper only has 115 or so. I'm not sure what bothers me about this, but something bugs me. Personally, I think he could start flying the camera for fun - but still - something gives me the funnie feeling on this - opinions?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #2 June 30, 2004 I know a guy who strapped a camera to his head at 12 jumps. No, not a typo, 12. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #3 June 30, 2004 Norman Kent strapped on a camera on jump #27. That does not mean it is safe...Norman is NOT your average jumper. (Of course most 100 jump wonders think THEY are not either)"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #4 June 30, 2004 ok - but - and no offence Jason - that doesn't help me. I have been reading alot of Dereks posts and reasearching what has been going on. Changes need to be made - in, around and throughout Skydiving . . .what those are I have no idea. I am looking for different ways to explain things to people that need to slow down or be woken up. I needed to be woken up - I was - abruptly - and I am thankful for it. It is not my responsibility to be the S&TA - not my JOB - but I still like this jumper and don't want them to be making bad decisions - but doesn't everyone? Doesn't everyone want the best for their fellow jumpers? How do you do that with out being titled as a badguy. How can you in good concience NOT say anything?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #5 June 30, 2004 QuoteHow do you do that with out being titled as a badguy. Unfortunately doing the right thing often gives one the title as the "badguy". The good thing is that this generally lasts for a few hundred jumps and then the jumper "wakes up". No one said doing the right thing was easy. All you can do is state your opinion, why you think it's a good idea to wait and then let the jumper and the DZO do their thing. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #6 June 30, 2004 QuoteUnfortunately doing the right thing often gives one the title as the "badguy". The good thing is that this generally lasts for a few hundred jumps and then the jumper "wakes up". wow does that sound familiar..... Wasn't I a "badguy" to you? I know I was to wrongway."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #7 June 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteUnfortunately doing the right thing often gives one the title as the "badguy". The good thing is that this generally lasts for a few hundred jumps and then the jumper "wakes up". wow does that sound familiar..... Wasn't I a "badguy" to you? I know I was to wrongway. Thanks - I know I have little (If Any) room to talk. I rarely find myself humble as i am here in these serious forums - Are you saying that I should leave it alone? I have voiced my opinion - as have some at the DZ - and I found out, othershave, at the other DZ - (If that makes any sense) - So now it is in the DZO's and the S&TA's hands to do anything more?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #8 June 30, 2004 QuoteThanks - I know I have little (If Any) room to talk. I rarely find myself humble as i am here in these serious forums - Are you saying that I should leave it alone? No...thats not what I am saying. All I am saying is doing what is right...is not easy. This guy will HATE you for limiting him from his God given right to do as he pleases.... But in your position you have NO real power. You don't own the DZ and you don't control what happens... If you are afraid he has no clue..then don't let him film you. If you think he is a danger don't even get on the same plane... It may be the right thing to do, but it will make you unpopular. You can also try to help him. You have options, and I think you know me well enough that I don't care what people think of me...I am going to do what I think is the right thing to do."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #9 June 30, 2004 Quoteok - but - and no offence Jason - that doesn't help me. My apologies, and no offense taken bro. My advice, go to them as a friend and explain to them the dangers of jumping a camera. Explain the complications that can be caused by a low-timer's poor body position on opening, how wearing a camera can snag lines and break your neck or render you unable to assess the situation at hand correctly (for not seeing what the hell it is). Explain how you might have an extra thing to cutaway if a problem arises, and if there isn't time....bad things can happen. Just make sure you make the point clear that you're only advising them as a friend and it's only because you care for their safety. If they don't listen, the only choices you have are to go to and S&TA/DZO or let it go. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #10 June 30, 2004 QuoteThat does not mean it is safe...Norman is NOT your average jumper. That raises my suspicion... Could that be told at jump # 27 or only now, that he's a skygod w/ thousands of jumps... Just curious...The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #11 June 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteUnfortunately doing the right thing often gives one the title as the "badguy". The good thing is that this generally lasts for a few hundred jumps and then the jumper "wakes up". wow does that sound familiar..... Wasn't I a "badguy" to you? I know I was to wrongway. Nope, you and I just have similar (yet different enough to spark debate) views on Cypres's Far as the rest goes I've been on this side for a number of years now (before I started posting here). See you in 3 weeks. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #12 June 30, 2004 QuoteThat raises my suspicion... Could that be told at jump # 27 or only now, that he's a skygod w/ thousands of jumps... I don't know...but I do know several people have told me he was ALWAYS above the norm...(Bad pun) I have only jumped with him a few times, but I would say he was always better than most."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #13 June 30, 2004 and here I thought no jokes were made in these forums.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #14 June 30, 2004 Quoteand here I thought no jokes were made in these forums They have to be hidden in with a message. You just can't do one liners....But one liners with a message...Well thats different."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,122 #15 June 30, 2004 The only way I've been able to communicate with folks who were getting in over their head (and it definitely doesn't work all the time) is to go through some scenarios with them one-on-one that they probably haven't thought of yet. Then I ask them if they would want to deal with that for the first time in freefall (or on landing). After a couple of scenarios, with them taking longer than is available on a jump to deal with it, I suggest that they might want to have more automatic reactions available to them before taking on a complicating piece of equipment or a bigger jump. It has to be in private, obviously, and if you can let them come to the conclusion, rather than just telling them they're idiots (always a favorite), it might work. People always feel smarter when they figure something out for themselves, and if you give them the whole lesson, then they will think they were fed the conclusion. Yes, you don't look as glorious leading them to a good conclusion. But the idea is to have them jump more safely? They don't have to acknowldedge your inherent superiority for that to happen But it's always nice Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #16 June 30, 2004 >How do you do that with out being titled as a badguy. It's different for everyone. Some people can't hear any criticism. Often if you present it as a question it doesn't get taken as badly, like "have you thought about what you're going to change in your emergency procedures?" or "how many practice dives have you done with that setup?" A good way is to put yourself in their position and ask yourself what would work for you. Suppose someone wanted you to jump a bigger canopy for your own safety? What phrasing would work with you? But in the end you will be titled as a bad guy, generally. And if you have low jump numbers, you'll be titled as a newbie, know-it-all, 100-jump-wonder bad guy. No real way around that. You have to decide if the potential good you can do (saving someone from injury, possibly death) is worth the suffering you will go through (getting called names.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #17 June 30, 2004 Clint, if this guy was 86'd with his camera from the other drop zone, does this mean that your drop zone is the "anything goes" or "big boy" dropzone in your area? I also haven't read, or missed, whether you think the duderon has the skills or not. Folks in that big a hurry to wear a video camera don't tend to come out as camera fliers. If the guy is a hazard, call bullshit with your DZM/O and your S&TA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DShiznit 0 #18 July 1, 2004 So I shouldn't wear a side mount helmet with a PC 105 on my first balloon jump next weekend? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #19 July 1, 2004 If I was to go my your profile numbers, then I'd say no. But I don't know you or your skills, so maybe you can handle it. Then again, maybe not.“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #20 July 1, 2004 let see... so you are going to be jumping at a lower altitude than usual.... and it'll take you a lot longer to reach terminal velocity than you probably ever experienced..... and with that in mind it'll probably take u longer to get stable.... so how many new variables can you introduce and handle on one jump? ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DShiznit 0 #21 July 1, 2004 That was mainly my point. I did a lot of thinking about it. I was going to, but thought wiser. If it were just a plain RW jump from a plane, I might be alright, but I think I'll pass doing so on a balloon jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #22 July 1, 2004 dude even if it was a "regular" jump just remember complacency kills. Will flying a camera get you in trouble, can you fly your body without even thinking or will you be so worried about the camera and the shot that you are not going to be stable and flyable. Yeah probably saying that you are not going to worry about it, trust me you will Hope you are stable on opening cuz a bad opening with about probably 5 #'s of weight on your head hurts like a bitch. Try not being able to move your neck for a week thanks to it. If you have a malfunction will you be able to handle it properly, will you be able to handle it while the lines are snagged in your helmet and you either chop your helmet (assuming you have a cutaway system in your helmet) or clear the lines. Try having your head pinned to your body cuz of line twist that pinned your camera equipment down, with such force that they actually twisted your camera and broke the base it was on. I know that you are itching to jump your camera and by the end of the day it is your decision, but guidelines are there for a reason. A jump with camera is not just another jump, we are in a sport that can kill you why do you want to push it that much just for the hell of it. It is not a race to see who can do it with the earliest. To me someone with 50 jumps (going by your profile) trying to fly camera "just for fun" is suicide. Cameras and their problems don't distinguish between "serious jumps" and "just for fun". Don't know you or your skills, but even with tunnel time and all 50 jumps is only 50 openings and 50 chances you had to learn new things to handle. And with 50 jumps I doubt that you have encountered that many. Talk to your camera guys at the dz and really pay attention to them. Hope you have an open mind and are ready to accept the consequences of not doing so. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #23 July 1, 2004 QuoteClint, if this guy was 86'd with his camera from the other drop zone, does this mean that your drop zone is the "anything goes" or "big boy" dropzone in your area? I also haven't read, or missed, whether you think the duderon has the skills or not. Folks in that big a hurry to wear a video camera don't tend to come out as camera fliers. If the guy is a hazard, call bullshit with your DZM/O and your S&TA. To my knowledge - they have never jumped a camera at our DZ. I dunno - I don't have the experiance to judge weather or not they have the reactiontime and air awareness to handle a bad situation. I would like to think they do - The problem that I see is their canopy awareness - I see this because I went through this as a newbie cam flyer - focusing on what the camera sees w/out seeing anything else around you - I was lucky - no incidents - but - I hve been cut off in the air several times by this jumper and they were not wearing a camera.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DShiznit 0 #24 July 1, 2004 Thanks for your feedback, I really value what you have written. All very valid points. It was just a thought... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #25 July 1, 2004 QuoteThanks for your feedback, I really value what you have written. All very valid points. It was just a thought... I've done a few cool jumps I wanted to get into videoing for, and I was sorta bummed they didn't have video. But, after doing those jumps I realize I can just go do them again later, when I'm good enough to be into camera. Now I have just enough jumps and "teeny, tiny, baby malfunctions / in-air problems" to know that I haven't actually run into anything serious, handled it well, and proven myself.* So I'm cooling off on strapping snagpoints to my melon for a few more jumps. I just keep telling myself there will always be time for it later, as long as right now I push my limits gently and concentrate on things I should be good at now. * It was weird that at 100 jumps, I suspected I didn't have much experience, but it took until 200 jumps to be sure. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
