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swooper81

AAD and DZ question

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When most people talk about insurance costs re: going helmet-less on a motorcycle, they're usually only considering MEDICAL insurance. But what many people forget is that states that don't have helmet laws also tend to inflate the cost of AUTO insurance, for EVERYBODY. Why? Because if you (while driving a car) negligently cause a collision with a motorcyclist, it is more likely that the biker will suffer a very serious head injury or death without a helmet than with one. Put another way, Joe Average Motorist is more likely to accidentally seriously injure or kill a motorcyclist if his state does not have helmet laws than if it does. It's Joe Average Motorist's AUTO insurance that will pay Injured/Dead Biker's personal injury and/or wrongful death claim, and/or Injured/Dead Biker's health insurance company's subrogation claim (i.e., the claim for reimbursement of what it paid to Biker (its policyholder) in direct benefits. That raises everybody's auto insurance premiums, and that really does affect everyone. And that - the effect on everyone's auto insurance rates - is why, as I see it, it's really more than just a "personal freedom" issue.

Personally, I think state legislatures that repeal their helmet laws are boneheads. No pun intended.

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Andy, I've tried to keep this focused more on AADs, since this is the skydiving forum. This tangent is better discussed on Speaker's Corner.

Your logic isn't backed up by real numbers. And drivers who kill others, be they on bicycles, foot, motorcycles, or other cars, deserve to pay higher rates.

And again, once you accept the social burden bullshit, then it's justifiable to ban motorcycling in whole, or skydiving while we're at it.

But the truth is that bikers and skydivers are such a small minority that the numbers barely register.

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I think the arguement is far beyond seatbelts. I'll use a better analogy. The reserve parachute. Sure it has killed a few people. But saved significcantly more than it has killed. You can turn an AAD off for CReW or where it may be a problem. Just like people BASE with one canopy. But acknowledge it is a far more dangerous sport than sydiving. If an AAD saves your life because you lost alititude awareness(most of the saves are alti awareness) it's pretty cheap insurance. There have been cases of dislocated shoulders, even hitting birds. And it's cheaper than mortuary holding costs, let alone a funeral.

But I agree it should be a personal choice. Just that people deciding to jump without one should arrange to have their family members scrape them up. There have been lots of cases where people say, "Thanks God I had a Cypres." But no people saying "Thank God I didn't have a Cypres when I lost alit awareness/passed out etc and went in."

And a few who would have cursed a Cypres were they still alive.
"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

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I think the arguement is far beyond seatbelts. I'll use a better analogy. The reserve parachute. Sure it has killed a few people. But saved significcantly more than it has killed. You can turn an AAD off for CReW or where it may be a problem. Just like people BASE with one canopy. But acknowledge it is a far more dangerous sport than sydiving. If an AAD saves your life because you lost alititude awareness(most of the saves are alti awareness) it's pretty cheap insurance. There have been cases of dislocated shoulders, even hitting birds. And it's cheaper than mortuary holding costs, let alone a funeral.

But I agree it should be a personal choice. Just that people deciding to jump without one should arrange to have their family members scrape them up. There have been lots of cases where people say, "Thanks God I had a Cypres." But no people saying "Thank God I didn't have a Cypres when I lost alit awareness/passed out etc and went in."

And a few who would have cursed a Cypres were they still alive.


You can turn an AAD off for CReW
You mean you unhook your rsl.
Track high, Pull LOW!!!

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In my defense I know very little and even less about CReW. Just that some other posters whinged about AAD's and CReW. I know an RSL is a bad idea because you cant get separtion if you chop from a wrap.
"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

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...Adding a thousand dollar aad to a rig that may cost 3 or 4 thousand, or in some cases a used rig that costs 1000 or less, means you're increasing the cost by 30 percent or even up to 100 percent, for something that could kill you in your chosen discipline...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Don't lose sight, also, about how this affects the jumper retention issue. How many people are in that gray area of financial life, where they can't jump as often as many Perris regulars but they can still pursue the sport and be one of us? This extra cost is exactly what is needed to discourage them and drive them away forever.

More important, however, is the effect these mandatory AAD policies have on younger jumpers. As they grow up into the sport, all they know is a world with mandatory AAD's. This causes them to adopt the mind-set that jumping without an AAD is VERY dangerous and, thus, AAD's should always be mandatory.

Later, when these pups decide to start their own DZ's, guess what you must have if you want to be a customer?...

Cheers,
Jon S.

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don't lose sight, also, about how this affects the jumper retention issue. How many people are in that gray area of financial life, where they can't jump as often as many Perris regulars but they can still pursue the sport and be one of us? This extra cost is exactly what is needed to discourage them and drive them away forever.

More important, however, is the effect these mandatory AAD policies have on younger jumpers. As they grow up into the sport, all they know is a world with mandatory AAD's. This causes them to adopt the mind-set that jumping without an AAD is VERY dangerous and, thus, AAD's should always be mandatory.

Later, when these pups decide to start their own DZ's, guess what you must have if you want to be a customer?...
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good points Jon....well said.

Cheers,
Jon S.




bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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I just wonder, what if there were NO AAD's. Let's just say everyone had to skydive the way we oldtimers were taught, No AADs, RSLs, Dytters or even coaches. Add in, you MUST jump, gasp, a ROUND canopy. How many people who are now skydiving would have never made their first jump or never have made it as far as they have? I am all for safety, but no one should DEPEND on anything other than themselves and their actions. I am not putting anyone down, this has often been brought up at the dropzone and I would like other's opinions. BS, BD

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AADs have been mandatory at all the DZs in Quebec for several years.



Not true... You can still jump in a few dropzone without it, fortunately...

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but no one should DEPEND on anything other than themselves and their actions.



Exactly!!!


I jump, I live, I love. Ourson #1 Ordre des Ours Polaires Volants

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How many people who are now skydiving would have never made their first jump or never have made it as far as they have?

I'd've made it -- oh wait, I did :ph34r:.

I'm not particularly in favor of the new redefinition of "safe" as "including Cypres." On the other hand, I don't ride my motorcycle without a helmet, or for that matter generally I won't skydive without a helmet.

The limits of "safe" change over the years. Nothing we can do to change that. A safe car of 50 years ago wasn't anything like a safe car of today. The safe toys my father played with aren't considered even remotely safe today.

Is it mandatory? Not sure. But I do think we're on the dividing line of a couple of generations of skydivers. The last big dividing line that included a fairly universal gear change was probably universal squares. Since those added to your "cool factor" they were OK.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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with regards to the financial grey area, i see it as necessary inconvenience. im a student saving every spare penny i have to buy a rig (less jumps, and when it comes to people persuading me to do so i have the breaking strain of a soggy kit-kat), but its something i wouldnt consider not buying one. i dont care what anyone says about aads, i know what theyre there for, and i wouldnt get a rig without one, and i certainly wouldnt jump without one. the number of unconscious or simply confused people saved by an aad far outweighs those killed by mis-fires, especially for those jumping lightly loaded canopies and not attempting high-performance landings. as far as im concerned, an aad is essential for my jumping and nobody is telling me otherwise no matter how many jumps theyve got.

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That is certainly your right. And nothing personal, but I want to ask, does this statement "an aad is essential for my jumping and nobody is telling me otherwise no matter how many jumps theyve got." concern anyone other than me? Not directed solely at you, and I don't mean to offend you. But, really, if u had a choice, skydive w no aad or not skydive, would it mean giving up the sport? I come from a different era and am just trying to get an understanding of this, sorry if I offended you. BS, BD

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That is certainly your right. And nothing personal, but I want to ask, does this statement "an aad is essential for my jumping and nobody is telling me otherwise no matter how many jumps theyve got." concern anyone other than me? BS, BD



FryNsky....Yossarian answered the question in your previous post. He would not now be a skydiver if he had to come up the way we did.
Its a shame.....but its a fact.


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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...as far as im concerned, an aad is essential for my jumping and nobody is telling me otherwise no matter how many jumps theyve got...



Good words Yossarian... and as strongly as you feel that jumping with an AAD is essential and that you would choose not to jump if you didn't have one... try to understand (whether you agree or disagree) that there are those that feel equally as strong the other way; that they want to be able to retain that as a choice for them and not be told that they have to have an AAD.

As someone pointed out up-thread... it is an interesting mind-set that some folks believe it DANGEROUS to skydive without an AAD. Sure, its a tough argument... tough discussion... what ever words you'd choose, but generally speaking, skydiving is probably not anymore dangerous without an AAD then with... however... certainly specifically speaking, if you're knocked-out in freefall or horse-shoe your main pilot chute around your arm and try to spend the rest of your life trying to clear it... then, you're better off having an AAD.

The sport ceratinly would be different if Airtec & Cypres didn't come along. I doubt you'd see many up jumpers with old FXCs or Sentinals... :S... I know I wouldn't...:)

You sometimes see similar attitudes from folks "newer" to the sport... that say have never jumped from anything less then 12,500'... when you talk about taking 15 seconds from say 4 grand... or jumping without and audible altimeter... or jumping an F111 canopy all the time... oooohhh, that's dangerous!

... didn't someone some time say something like, "hey all you rock-n-rollers, better watch out, one day your gonna get older"... :D... rest assured... go out today and buy the most high tech, in fashion, free-fly-friendly, wing-suit-ready, all the bells and whistles, rig, main, reserve & AAD money can buy, damn the price... put it on your shelf in the back of your dark and climet controlled closset... put it out 25 years from now still in perfect condition (just needs a repack and some new AAD batteries... :P)... and you'll have someone tell you its DANGEROUS... or at least look at you with that "look"... like you actually jumped stuff like that... and/or start in with 101 reasons why things like that aren't any good anymore.

Yossarian... I don't think its that the more experienced folk around are trying to tell you that you shouldn't jump without an AAD or that its okay to jump without an AAD... I doubt you'll get a real arguement from someone who's been around awhile that AADs can't significantly reduce the risks inherient with skydiving if certain things go wrong... I think all they're saying is jumping without an AAD isn't all as Black Deathy as y'all may think it is and we'd like to retain the choice to jump without an AAD regardless of whether we have one or not... we've seen Black Death, and jumping without an AAD isn't it. Sure I've got a Cypres in both my rigs, I've got em' for the knocked out in freefall scenario, other then that -- my plan -- see my sig line -- but, all that being said, still, IMO jumping without an AAD isn't Black Death. ... hey, just my 2 cents.

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Are there any DZ's out there that require AAD's by all jumpers (ie fun jumpers, students, tandems)? just curious.



... anyway... for experienced skydivers, isn't still that there are only 2 Drop Zones in the U.S. that require AADs for experienced jumpers... or did I miss something... again... :S

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I just wonder, what if there were NO AAD's. Let's just say everyone had to skydive the way we oldtimers were taught, No AADs, RSLs, Dytters or even coaches. Add in, you MUST jump, gasp, a ROUND canopy. How many people who are now skydiving would have never made their first jump or never have made it as far as they have?



I wouldn't have started jumping in the round & jump-boots days. I like my ankles and back the way they are. If that means I'm somehow less of a skydiver, then so be it.

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I am all for safety, but no one should DEPEND on anything other than themselves and their actions.



Really? On every jump I depend on the pilot, aircraft, fellow jumpers, my harness, container, main and/or reserve, as well as on myself.

I'm not infallible. I make mistakes. I'd prefer to stack the odds in my favour.

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Before you start making us all wear aads why don't you wait another three years, and then, when you have 46 jumps, you can come back and tell us to do it.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Are there any DZ's out there that require AAD's by all jumpers (ie fun jumpers, students, tandems)? just curious.



... anyway... for experienced skydivers, isn't still that there are only 2 Drop Zones in the U.S. that require AADs for experienced jumpers... or did I miss something... again... :S



It's more than that.

After our DZO saw the Frankie video from the ranch (you can watch his slider coming down in his shadow on the ground) the only turbine dropzone within a four hour round trip of where I lived required all free fliers to have AADs.

Since moving, I've found that the only year round turbine DZ within a four hour round trip claims to require AADs on their web-site.

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It's more than that.

After our DZO saw the Frankie video from the ranch (you can watch his slider coming down in his shadow on the ground) the only turbine dropzone within a four hour round trip of where I lived required all free fliers to have AADs.

Since moving, I've found that the only year round turbine DZ within a four hour round trip claims to require AADs on their web-site.




LOL

Just the free fliers are required to have AADs??!? Really!!!????

... but seriously, what DZ (or DZs) are we talking about here, specifically.

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i wasnt responding to anybody in particular, i was just saying that i wouldnt jump without one. if they didnt exist, i probably would jump without one, but they do exist, so why wouldnt I? i do, of course, respect the opinions of those who actively wish to jump without them, although in my mind i place them in a different category to those who would jump without one if there wasnt one available. my mindset doesnt even make sense to myself sometimes, possibly rational, possibly not, i wouldnt jump without an aad when skydiving, but id love to base jump, but only off a bridge. why? because the idea of flying back into something is what scares me about base.

i would have started jumping in the days of rounds and jump-boots etc, i wanted to start jumping when thats all i thought skydiving was, but now i know that there are aads available, i can see no reason that i would jump without one, and feel i would be irresponsible to jump without one. im not afraid of dying in this sport, but i hate to think of what it would do to my family and those that have to pick me up, and my cypres is a safeguard to my stupidity (should i prove stupid enough to not look at my alti) or the many other factors that would bring about a cypres save.

(apologies if that doesnt all make sense, just come back from the pub)

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You didnt read my other post. I don't think it should be compulsory. It's an individuals decision and should always remain that way. I'm not telling anyone to do anything.

But if everyone had the same mentality as you, there would be more deaths in the sport. And people with more jumps than you have been saved by them.
"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

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But if everyone had the same mentality as you, there would be more deaths in the sport. And people with more jumps than you have been saved by them.


------------------------------------------------------
Thats pretty judgemental youngster...you might want to listen more and talk less...and go make some jumps.


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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