wildfan75 1 #76 November 1, 2006 QuoteQuote Where do you, and Mike111 for that matter, get that it takes ages to go through static line?!?! I am totally puzzled. Beyond belief. If it took someone nine months to get through s/l, that's their fault. I had my static line jumps down in two weekends, and by the end of the third I was jumping from full altitude. Not totally fair or accurate. I started SL last october, spent nearly every weekend at the dz and finally got my A license atthe end of May after 28 jumps. If the weather was good I dropped everything and went to the dz, and jumped as much as I physically could (i.e. space on the plane). Don't forget we have a lot of bad weather here in the UK over winter, far more non jumperbal days than jumping ones, and how many of those occur at the weekend?!? And I progressed pretty fast, a lot of uni students take over a year to qualify. I jump in Wisconsin, we've got the same weather issues here. But weather would also be something that is effecting AFF students too, so it would take just as long, if not longer, to do AFF because you have to get full altitude to do AFF. You don't need full altitude to do S/L. Weather is a non-factor in deciding what method to go. As as far as "space on the plane", once again, you've got a better chance at jumping via S/L than you do in AFF because you only need one jump master on the plane for S/L for ALL student jumpers. With AFF, you'd need at least one instructor (two for the early jumps) PER student jumper on the plane. So if you've got a 182, you can send up three students and one JM. If you're doing an early level AFF, you're stuck with one student, two instructors and an experienced jumper that wants to fill the load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #77 November 1, 2006 OTOH, our plane (C208B) has better chances going up with 2 AFF students and 4 JM's than with 5 SL students and one JM (ie no way it's going up; it needs 8 paying SL and/or sportsjumpers). $$$$$$. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #78 November 1, 2006 QuoteOTOH, our plane (C208B) has better chances going up with 2 AFF students and 4 JM's than with 5 SL students and one JM (ie no way it's going up; it needs 8 paying SL and/or sportsjumpers). $$$$$$. But that assuming that there is no one else there to fill loads other than students and instructors. Where's all the experienced jumpers that want to jump? Oh, they probably went through AFF and don't have any money left to jump... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #79 November 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteOTOH, our plane (C208B) has better chances going up with 2 AFF students and 4 JM's than with 5 SL students and one JM (ie no way it's going up; it needs 8 paying SL and/or sportsjumpers). $$$$$$. But that assuming that there is no one else there to fill loads other than students and instructors. Where's all the experienced jumpers that want to jump? Oh, they probably went through AFF and don't have any money left to jump... Usually this situation comes up during weekdays, when most experienced jumpers have to work but the students have taken a week off to learn how to jump. So the load may only go up after 5 o' clock when some jumpers may drop in after work. Like me ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #80 November 1, 2006 Wow, so much heat and passion. All this arguing over which is best. The bottom line is listen to the wildfan. Through all the argument and BS, she stood strong and said "look for yourself". Every DZ is different, every instructor, airplane, every person. They are all different. Lets just step back and say welcome. I hope you find what your after, no matter what program you chose. Skydiving is like nothing else and if you fallow the path, it doesn't matter how you start. It will become just another good story you can tell to the new jumpers. Good luck skyflygirl1. I hope you find what your looking for. Maybe someday we can jump together.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #81 November 1, 2006 Your Math Escapes me there.. I dont know what your DZ Charges for AFF or SL Jumps but using Average prices around here.. 2 AFF Students @ $160 each (for 6 Slots) = $320 vs 5 SL Students @ $65 each (6 Slots Total) = $325 And the SL is going to use alot less fuel and Hours on the engine and turn much quicker. Doesnt make sense to me why they wouldnt send the SL load when they make more and it costs them less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katherine 0 #82 November 1, 2006 Quote Where do you, and Mike111 for that matter, get that it takes ages to go through static line?!?! I am totally puzzled. Beyond belief. If it took someone nine months to get through s/l, that's their fault. I had my static line jumps down in two weekends, and by the end of the third I was jumping from full altitude. Ahh, i may have misunderstood you. do you mean ages to get off SL, or ages to fininsh SL priogression and get your A. if the former, then yeah, actuall SL jumps shouldn't take that long. 2 weekends for me, (but that was with a 6 week gap of non juperbal weather in the middle)Leeds University Skydiving Club www.skydiveleeds.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #83 November 1, 2006 QuoteSL students sleep in their car because they are too drunk to drive home and they wish they had a girlfriend. Ouch...the truth hurts"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #84 November 1, 2006 QuoteWas thinking isn't it best to just do a packing course? I'm suprised they're not an essential and mandatory part of the process to getting your A licence. Back when most DZ's taught SL only and few Instructors made a living skydiving "classes" were not needed. I used to teach my students how to pack when they landed from the jump. I would give them the debrief and then we would pack their rig for their next jump. At another club I taught at we taught the student to pack in the FJC. The student had 5 packs before they ever jumped, and they jumped their pack jobs. Today with the rushed pace of AFF and the need for Instructors to make money, they often don't bother to teach packing instead they have the packers teach the class while they jump with another paying customer. Nothing wrong with that plan, but many times the student never learns to pack and just starts dropping the rig off to get packed."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WILDBILLAQR 0 #85 November 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteSL students sleep in their car because they are too drunk to drive home and they wish they had a girlfriend. Ouch...the truth hurts -------------------------------------------------------- With our program we actually let the S/L students sleep in the bunkhouse, only on the floor thou, they have to graduate before we let them sleep in a bed---------------------------------------------- "Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!" AQR#3,CWR#49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilatus_p 0 #86 November 1, 2006 QuoteAnd I progressed pretty fast, a lot of uni students take over a year to qualify. Yes, between 6 months to a year was a common figure at Brunel Univeristy as well. Of course, we all had less cash - couldnt always afford to jump even if they had the weather... I think whats emerging is that the SL experience in the States is very different to what has been found in the UK - which largely seems to be one of long waits and, at least in the case of guys from my old uni, frequent repeats. We used to put about 100 students a year through a RAPS FJC. Most (90 of that 100) dropped out after 2 or 3 jumps, (though of course this is not necassarily directly because of the RAPS programme itself) and the remainder, their motivation dented by frequent unfruitful drives to the DZ, tended to drift onto AFF, what with the end of its 8 jump programme always feeling just that little bit more in sight. Perhaps UK SL schools could benefit by talking to some of the US SL instructors to find out what they are doing right? It looks as though if people really want to do static line, then the States is the place to go! Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #87 November 1, 2006 i would agree... i think JM's in UK here prefer AFF over static Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #88 November 1, 2006 Quotei would agree... i think JM's in UK here prefer AFF over static Why? In the states most full time Instructors prefer AFF as well. It might have something to do with when I JM SL students I get paid 5.00 bucks. And for every AFF student I get paid 32.00. Full Cessna load of SL's, I get paid 15.00 and get a hop n pop, and have three students to debrief. AFF I get paid twice as much and only have one student to debrief. Once the SL students are on long delays I jump out with them to watch. I still get paid 5 bucks for doing the same thing an AFF student pays me 32.00. There is much more money to be made in AFF."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #89 November 1, 2006 Quotei would agree... i think JM's in UK here prefer AFF over static Yep, because it's more money in their pockets. As I said in my first post, I think AFF is a product of the commercial dropzone. Just another way to get their hands deeper into the pockets of student. I wonder why USPA membership is dwindling. Hmmm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflygirl1 0 #90 November 1, 2006 Quote Good luck skyflygirl1. I hope you find what your looking for. Maybe someday we can jump together. Thanks very much, that's really nice of you. Hope we do get to jump together, would like to jump with as many cool guys and gals as I can one day:) The thought of that makes me beam!Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflygirl1 0 #91 November 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteSL students sleep in their car because they are too drunk to drive home and they wish they had a girlfriend. Ouch...the truth hurts If I were a s/l student I wouldn't wish I had a girlfriend, well. . . . . .i might if i were pissed (meaning drunk for all the US folks)Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #92 November 1, 2006 SL is max EUR 28,50 here (you're kidding, we're CHEAPER for once?!? that's 34 dollars max, depending on day of the week and on membership), no clue about what a single AFF jump costs as people pay a package deal. But yeah, 8 sports jumper slots make the plane go up, with at least 4 paying jumpers to get higher than 5k (ie for an FS4 it goes to 12k). ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #93 November 1, 2006 QuoteWas thinking isn't it best to just do a packing course? I'm suprised they're not an essential and mandatory part of the process to getting your A licence. Will book myself on one probably even before I get my A If you need to pay someone to teach you to pack, you are at the wrong dropzone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #94 November 1, 2006 Agreed. The packers at taught me to pack DZ taught me for free because I asked, and so they wouldn't have to."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #95 November 1, 2006 I need some clarity here . . . does the USPA have a requirement for a packing endorsement to get the A license?? Canadian PIM's state that a packing endorsement is required . . . See PIM 1 section 3 page 7 and 8 http://www.cspa.ca/forms/PIM1.pdf also see PIM 2B section 7 page 77 http://www.cspa.ca/forms/PIM2B.pdf. Now . . . CSPA requires a packing endorsement, including a course, 10 supervised packs, a parts and nomenclature test (verbal) and a "mess test". These things are not free and we don't have full time dropzone workers like the southern states. Our staff have day jobs and their time on the weekends is valuable, therefore, there is an official packing course that students take to learn how to pack and receive their endorsement in order to achieve their A license. This course costs $85 dollars and is worth every penny because the students come out of it with a strong knowledge and ability to pack ram-air canopies. They have confidence as well as a signed endorsement that indicates their abilities. So, for arguments sake, your statement does not apply to everyone. EDIT : sorry for veering the thread off topic . . . skyflygirl, you should also consider a tandem progression, if they have them at your DZ . . . 3 tandems, 2 S/L's, then your freefalling solo . . . just a thought . . .You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #96 November 1, 2006 Well that is the reason. doesn't necessarily mean AFF is any worse than static though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #97 November 1, 2006 QuoteWell that is the reason. doesn't necessarily mean AFF is any worse than static though. Never said AFF was worse....Just didn't say it was blindly BETTER. Both programs have benefits and *both* have drawbacks. AFF is not a magic wonder program that some think it is. The big difference is that most SL programs focus on things that people will not work on on their own. (spotting, packing, low exits). Where almost all students will work on freefall skills once off student status."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #98 November 2, 2006 Quote Have also done 30 mins in the tunnel so the body position isn't a big issue for me. If you've already done some tunnel and the prices are about the same between AFF and SL, do AFF. 30 mins of tunnel will mean you'll probably ace through AFF pretty easily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #99 November 2, 2006 CSPA also requires - at least 3 unassisted self spots , (5 at our DZ ) and a 4000' Hop and pop before solo status can be obtained , This applies to both PFF and Progression . javascript:%20addTag(';)') Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #100 November 2, 2006 USPA A-card You have to pack it yourself, jump it, show that you know how to hook it up, take it off, change the loop, and service the rig. How you learn that is up to you. The FAA, however, has no such requirements on the main. You jump it, you pack it. Opinions do vary, but I was one of those S/L'ers that emptied trash and fueled planes and I stand by my beliefs on this topic. OK-back to the OP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
