Buying first rig- how fast do I downsize to jump it?

[MWGemini 0]

I am a student, just did my 15th jump today. My first 5 jumps were tandems, then up to 14 I was jumping Skymaster 290s. Today I jumped a Hornet 230 for the first time. My pattern and canopy control have been good throughout my training so far, but I have been tending lately (my last 3 or 4 jumps) to overshoot the target as much as 150 feet. Today I overshot by about 40 or so, so I am improving, and can probably be landing within the circle or pretty close to it reliably within another jump or two.

Also, the last 2-3 jumps I have been flaring a little high, I think I may have begun to stall my canopy today, but all of my landings (with the exception of my third tandem) have been stand ups without any problems.

I am now looking at buying my first rig, and the one that I am particularly interested in currently has a 150 in it, which I would replace with a 170 (most likely a Sabre). I weigh 135, so my exit weight is somewhere around 155. Jumping the 290, my wing loading was .53. Jumping the 230, my wing loading is .67. Jumping a 210, my wing loading is .73. Jumping a 190, my wing loading is .81. Jumping a 170, my wing loading is .91.

I have spoken with my instructors, and they say that I can probably be jumping a 170 within 6 months of getting my A (which should be mid-November). While that seems sensible and reasonable, I'd like to push that up so that I can be jumping the 170 within three months of my A license, if not as soon as I get my A. Before any of you take that the wrong way, I am *NOT* trying or wanting to fly beyond my limits and fly a canopy that is unsafe. I love the sport and would like to stay in it for a long time. Trips to the ER tend to make that difficult.

SO, my questions are:

1) Is it reasonable for me to expect to be jumping a 170 loaded at about .91 within a few months after I get my A license (assuming 2 jumps per weekend with rental gear and 4-5 per weekend jumping my own)

2) What can I do, and what do I need to do to ensure that I can safely fly not only the canopy that I am flying now, but every subsequent canopy as well. Along these lines, I have heard of a canopy course by Scott Miller and Team Extreme. Where can I learn more about these courses (specifically dates, times, locations, price) and others like them? Also, are there any videos that I can learn a lot from, or any that I should avoid?

If it seems as though I am rushing into this, that is not my intention. However, the sooner I get my own rig, the sooner I can stop paying rig rental fees, which means I can jump twice as often, which means my skills will increase twice as fast. My hope for purchasing the rig sized for a 150 is that I can squeeze a 170 into it, and possibly continue to use it with as small as a 130, so this rig could (and probably will) last me several years before I would have any reason to purchase another.

So i basically have two options: buy the rig I am looking at now, and probably not be able to jump it for a few months after I get my A (say 50 jumps or so total by that time), or buy a larger rig that I can begin jumping immediately after I get off student status, but probably not have the longevity the first rig will (in terms of canopy size).

This is partially a moot point, since i can't afford to buy the rig in question until I sell my car (so if anyone wants a 1967 Ford Mustang, 3kobo, PM me), but your advice is welcome.

Thanks for reading all the way through this rambling post I just made, forgive my ignorance.

Mike

[skybytch 259]

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I have spoken with my instructors, and they say that I can probably be jumping a 170 within 6 months of getting my A (which should be mid-November). While that seems sensible and reasonable, I'd like to push that up so that I can be jumping the 170 within three months of my A license, if not as soon as I get my A.

Why? That's not a smart ass question btw; I'm honestly curious why you are in a hurry to jump something smaller when people who have seen you fly and land a parachute, people with (assumed) at least some experience in the sport, are advising you to not hurry.

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However, the sooner I get my own rig, the sooner I can stop paying rig rental fees, which means I can jump twice as often, which means my skills will increase twice as fast. My hope for purchasing the rig sized for a 150 is that I can squeeze a 170 into it, and possibly continue to use it with as small as a 130, so this rig could (and probably will) last me several years before I would have any reason to purchase another.

You can buy a container sized for a 170 and stuff a 190 in it if needed. Same container will hold a 150 and possibly even a 135 later. Any container sized for 170+ canopies with a harness sized for an average body size will be easy to resell later without taking a big $$ hit as they are scarce on the US used market; same with 170+ main and reserve canopies.

Regardless of what you do gear-wise, take a canopy control course as soon as you possibly can. I learned more about flying and landing a canopy in one day with Scott Miller than I'd learned in the 950 jumps and 14 years previous. Canopy control coaching and training is worth every penny it costs even if you never fly a canopy loaded over 1.0.

[crzjp20 0]

i hope you dont take this as me being a smart ass but why the rush to down size??

i am not an instrustor and what not and god knows i dont have enough knowledge to give you advice but i ma really surious to why you want to down size so fast.

BTW. What is you exit weight?

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[MWGemini 0]

I'm not really in a hurry to downsize, more in a hurry to be jumping my own rig, primarily for financial reason (less money spent renting is more money spent jumping). I just want to make sure that whatever rig I *DO* purchase is going to be able to last me a long time, since they are so expensive. I'm just trying to make the most informed decision possible.

That's not to say that I haven't had fun jumping the 290s,, and I am still having fun, and have a lot to learn, jumping the 230s. But what about in 6 months? A year? 2? THAT is why I'm looking at a rig that is too small for my current abilities, on the assumption that I can grow into it over a period of several years.

Skybytch briefly mentioned the canopy control courses I asked about, but did not give any more information. Can you tell me more about them, or where to find them?

As I (think I) said, I will *NOT* be downsizing all the way to a 170 right off of student status. I will not downsize until I, and my instructors, feel that it is safe to do so. I know that I have a lot to learn about canopy control and flight, and that there are certain things I need to be able to do before downsizing. That was the original intent of my post, to get help becoming a better canopy pilot on what I am flying now, and then focus every jump on improving my skills with certain exercises or techniques or something, so that I can improve faster, and with that, be able to downsize faster.

My primary goal in this sport is, and always has been, safety. I do not want to get hurt or killed out there but without dedicated training, my skills will not improve as much. My instructors are great, and I learn a lot every time I talk to them, but my home DZ is often extremely busy with tandems and such, so it is hard to grab an instructor and sit them down for an hour and ask about things that you all probably take for granted as experienced pilots but that I have no idea about.

So, again, I apologize if anyone out there read my original post and mistook it as another dumb student trying to make himself into a stain on the tarmac. I want to be the best canopy pilot I can be, and that is going to take dedicated instruction. So if anyone knows where I can find out about those courses, videos, books that I should read, etc, please let me know. Again, I will NOT jump a canopy that I or my instructors feel are beyond my abilities to fly and land safely.

Thanks,

Mike

EDIT: This is a response to a PM that a concerned jumper sent me, thought it might help everyone understand my intentions.

I wrote that while I was tired, so maybe it came out wrong, but I am not in a rush to downsize, and I will not fly anything that is unsafe.

I mainly want to learn as much as I can through courses, personal instruction, videos, and books, about canopy flight, so that I can hone my skills so that when I DO downsize, it is safe to do so.

I will be progressing down in size slowly, as my instructors and I feel that my skills allow for it. That is why I put my wing loading and exit weight in the first post for several diffferent canopy sizes, as that is going to be what my progression will be, with the rental gear my DZ has.

Once off student status, I want to be jumping my own rig as soon as possible, since rental gear is more than the cost of a jump ticket. It is for that reason I want to learn quickly, so that I won't have to be renting long. If I can find a good system sized for a 170 that I can put a 190 in, I would prefer that, but I am looking at a good, low jump G3 complete system that would be just about perfect for me, and would work well for several years and several disciplines of freefall that I want to get in to. It's a good rig at a good price, so I want to get it if I can. One of my instructors even said go for it, just don't be expecting to jump it right off student status, which I am not.

So how do I become a better canopy pilot so that I can safely downsize when the time is right? What skills do I need to learn, and master, before I can downsize?

Thanks,

Mike

[gemini 0]

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My hope for purchasing the rig sized for a 150 is that I can squeeze a 170 into it, and possibly continue to use it with as small as a 130, so this rig could (and probably will) last several years before I would have any reason to purchase another.

I am concerned about this comment. At your level of jumps you need to be thinking about learning to fly the canopy you are using. When you can stand-up all your landings on your target that is an improvement, but no reflection on your canopy skills. Learn to fly what you have first period.

I have 4+ years on my current container and almost 1,000 jumps on a Sabre2 150 and I still have a lot to learn.

I think you are enamored with the container because it is available. There are plenty of them out there and you will like a lot of them. Listen to you instructors and friends...some of them probably learned the hard way and you do not want to repeat their mistakes!

Slow down!

Blue skies,

Jim

[MWGemini 0]

That's why I made this post, to get help learning to BE a better canopy pilot. Nobody has yet answered that question.

As a reminder, jumping a 170, my wing loading will be about .91. And again, I WILL NOT DOWNSIZE until my instructors and I feel that it is safe to do so. I am simply trying to hone my skills as quickly as possible in the hopes that I can SAFELY downsize sooner.

Thanks,

Mike

[juanesky 0]

If you want to get a canopy control class, first place to llok would be your DZ. THen go for the publications, and find when and where the canopy classes will take place.

Some DZ's have staff readily available for this type of instruction, IE Cross-keys. You need to find out if one near your area is like that.

Don't worry about downsizing yet, try to talk to your instructors and see the possibility of working with them a progression 210, 190....170.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[billvon 2,400]

>1) Is it reasonable for me to expect to be jumping a 170 loaded
>at about .91 within a few months after I get my A license . . .

Maybe. Depends on how much you jump, what sort of instruction you get, how many jumps you put on a 190 etc. Personally I'd put off deciding I wanted a 170 until I had a bunch of jumps on a 190. It would be bad to buy the 170, not be too comfortable on the 190, but jump the 170 because "that's what you have."

It may be that you can get a container that you can squeeze a 190 into. If you go this route make sure the reserve is a reasonable size - I wouldn't go smaller than your main until you are sure you can land the smaller canopy.

>2) What can I do, and what do I need to do to ensure that I can
> safely fly not only the canopy that I am flying now, but every
> subsequent canopy as well.

Make sure you can do these things before downsizing:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

[MWGemini 0]

Thanks for those last two replies. I spoke with my instructor again today, and he feels that I could probably handle a 210 right now, but due to DZ policy, I have to stick to DZ rental gear until I get my A, which means I can't go any smaller than a 230 (smallest student rig the DZ has). No problems there, the 230 is still new to me and I've got a lot to learn with it. I was also able to discuss with him a lot of techniques and skills that I need to learn and get good at before I can downsize. That's exactly what I was looking for, along with the list you just linked me to, Bill.

I think maybe I'm being a little overzealous and wanting to jump at the rig I'm eyeing right now since it is seemingly very hard to find rigs for my height and weight with 'conservative' canopies in them. Ideally, I would rather jump a 190 as MY first canopy, but if it comes down to it, and I am unable to find a more suitable rig, I'll probably get the one I am looking at now, but just continue jumping rental gear until I am sure I can safely fly a 170 main. I still have not been able to find any information about Steve Miller's canopy course, but from everything I have heard about it, it's something I really want/need to check out, so if anyone can give me more info on it (where, when, price, etc), I would greatly appreciate it. Also, any good books or videos anyone can recommend will also help.

Thanks,

Mike

P.S. My home DZ is Carolina Sky Sports in Louisburg, NC for those who are interested.

[GravityGirl 0]

And my #1 piece of advise to the same question asked of me every week:

Don't buy what you plan to jump in the future! Buy what you want to fly now. PERIOD. Otherwise, you may never make it to your future plans.

As Lisa (Skybytch) said, and I'll reinforce. Any rig with and average size harness that fits a 190 or 170 main is easy as hell to sell. So buy it used, put 100 jumps on it, and sell it for very close to what you bought it for, take that money and buy the next size down, and so on and so on.

You can't sit here and analyze and project your next 200 jumps. There is more to it than math and matching numbers. There are too many variables. You are a unique human being, the only way to tell where you are going to be and what you are ready for within the next 100 jumps, is to get there. The path varies from person to person.

The best advise that I can give you after dealing with gear on a daily basis for quite some time: Start with the 190. It will be easy as hell to sell when you want the next size. If you get a rig built for a 150 and cram something bigger in it. It will be uncomfortable. Hard to pack. Piss off your rigger. Wear on the container. Need I ramble on?

That's it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[MWGemini 0]

I've finally been able to find out about the Scott Miller canopy control course, and one is being held in Florida in late December that I am going to make every effort to attend. I've decided to hold off on purchasing a rig until after I complete that course for the reason you just said- buy what you intend to fly.

I think part of my concern stems from the fact that I've seen very few containers that will fit me (I am 5'10", 135lbs) well. Even the student Javelins I have been jumping are on the verge of being too big for me at their smallest setting. And then when I see a container that DOES fit me, the canopies in it are outrageously small for me (like 120ish mains). I'm considering ordering a custom fit container, but I really don't want to spend the extra money for that, especially if I just end up selling it a few years down the road.

At any rate, I am jumping Hornet 230s now, and will continue to do so at least until I get my A. After that, if my instructors and I both feel it's safe to do so, I'll drop to a 210 and work on that. Judging from all the responses that I've gotten here, it is not advisable to jump anything smaller than a 190 for MY first main, and that is what I WANT to be jumping, ideally. I think seeing that rig for sale that fits me and has all the things I want/need on it made me want to buy it before anyone else did. I'm not going to rush into a decision, whether it be purchasing a rig, or jumping one that may be too small for me.

Thanks again to all the replies. If anyone has any other canopy control advice, or what I can do/read/watch to improve my canopy control, please let me know.

Thanks,

Mike

[GravityGirl 0]

If you can't find a good match on the used market, consider buying a new container with used components. The most cost effective solutions in your case would be Wings or Icon. There are other options. These two would just be my top pict for budget, and custom fit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[MWGemini 0]

That's what I meant, a new container with used everything else. I'm heavily leaning toward a Mirage system because it is more freefly friendly than Javelins, although all the student rigs I have jumped are Javelins and I am happy with them, if/when I get into freeflying, I want to do it safely. Also, at some point I would like to try wingsuit flight, and I have read the Mirages are good rigs for that as well.

I really don't know anything at all about Wings or Icon, and have not researched them, but for something that my safety and life depend on, I am perfectly happy waiting until I can afford the best equipment (not saying brand new, just a better rig, manufacturer, reputation, etc).

Thanks,

Mike

[gemini 0]

If cash is a problem, you might want to consider a wings container which is also freefly friendly. Spaceland Anomaly jumps wings and has had no problems. The wings container starts much less than the Mirage.

Blue skies,

Jim

[skyhighkiy 0]

If your instructors tell you that you are ready to jump a 170, and you want to pick up a good beginners rig, let me know. I think i'm going to end up selling mine off this winter to pick up something that's freefly friendly.

again, this would just be to get you saving money on rentals until you could get something you want to keep for a long time, but it'd be cheap (like 900-1000)

Vector 2
Sabre 170 (approx 550 jumps)
super raven 150 reserve (1 terminal opening)
no AAD but cypress ready

whatever, just a suggestion, but again, do NOT go down this far unless your instructors have OK'd you for it, the 170 does allow for error but hey, better safe than sorry :)

a suggestion though (LOOK AT HOW MANY JUMPS I HAVE BEFORE LISTENING TO MY COMMMENT IN THIS AREA) is to wait until you're ready for a 170 to purchase your own gear. I've met alot of students that end up getting bored w/ a 190 really quick. Hell, I was bored of it in 3 jumps. Just a suggestion, but don't push it too fast, everyone has their own rate of advancing.

Drive fast, take chances!

BE THE BUDDHA!

[FOF 6]

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I've finally been able to find out about the Scott Miller canopy control course, and one is being held in Florida in late December that I am going to make every effort to attend.

Mike,

Canopy coaching is available year-round in DeLand, and we also run courses at other DZ's throughout the year. Visit www.freedomofflight.tv for more information.

- Scott Miller

[MWGemini 0]

Yeah, I saw that as well, but figured that the one day course might be something I could do either before the December course or afterwards, depending on time, weather, etc. Ideally what I'd like to do is take the essentials course sometime after I get my A but before the 3 day camp in late December, then take the advanced sometime in January, with a focus on accuracy (no need for high performance landings for a long time to come). I'm also looking at the two day camp scheduled in November in South Carolina, but I won't have my A by that time.

Thanks Scott,

Mike

Edit: What are the class sizes usually limited to, and how fast do they fill up (i.e. how far in advance should I register to guarantee a slot)?

[Sammy- 0]

I've been jumping 190 - 210's since my first jump. (I weigh about 185). Am I putting myself in danger by jumping what I thought was a large canopy, but what appears (after reading your post) to be a small canopy for my jump numbers?

[Frenchy68 0]

I've been jumping 190 - 210's since my first jump. (I weigh about 185). Am I putting myself in danger by jumping what I thought was a large canopy, but what appears (after reading your post) to be a small canopy for my jump numbers?
***
Watch who you're asking, and who is answering. There are maybe 5 people who posted in this thread that could give you a theorical educated answer. Probably none of them have seen you jump. Ask your instructor.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[billvon 2,400]

>Am I putting myself in danger by jumping what I thought was a large canopy . . .

It all depends on your training. People from SDC have less problems jumping small canopies because they are _started_ on small canopies and have a lot of training landing them. People who started on large canopies and progressed to smaller ones without a lot of training are at greater risk. It's different for each person - a canopy control course would let you evaluate your own skills and learn something in the process. I highly recommend them.

[FOF 6]

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I'm also looking at the two day camp scheduled in November in South Carolina, but I won't have my A by that time.

We only require people to be current and "cleared to self-supervise" before attending one of our courses or skills camps. When a skills camp is held outside of DeLand, it's up to the host DZ to decide whether or not you need an A license to attend. Of course, you should also talk to your instructors at CSS if you plan on visiting other DZ's before getting your A license. They might not see a problem with it, or they might recommend that you make a few more jumps "at home" first.

Quote

What are the class sizes usually limited to, and how fast do they fill up (i.e. how far in advance should I register to guarantee a slot)?

Our regular classes in DeLand and weekend skills camps at other DZ's are limited to eight people per day. Many of the weekend skills camps fill up quickly, so if you are interested in attending one it's best to sign up as early as possible.

Flight-1 Camps can usually accommodate a greater number of participants, but we will need your registration and deposit at least 30 days before the camp. You can register online at www.flight-1.com

If you have any other specific questions about our canopy courses and camps, you can e-mail [email protected]. I was surfing around yesterday and happened to look at this thread and see your post, but I don't usually spend much time on dropzone.com. I just have a little free time right now thanks to Hurricane Frances.

- Scott

[somethinelse 0]

That was very clearly stated and explained & answers the poster's question...
AND the rest of newbies' questions re purchasing first sets of jumping gear.

You GO girl!

[MWGemini 0]

Thanks to all who have responded here. I am making concrete plans to attend at least one canopy course by the end of the year, hopefully two, in addition to books and videos that I have already ordered and weekly talks with instructors, I am hoping to learn a lot about canopy control before I make a final decision on purchasing a rig.

Thanks again,

Mike

[skybytch 259]

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I'm heavily leaning toward a Mirage system because it is more freefly friendly than Javelins.

They are? Sez who?

Quote

I really don't know anything at all about Wings or Icon, and have not researched them, but for something that my safety and life depend on, I am perfectly happy waiting until I can afford the best equipment (not saying brand new, just a better rig, manufacturer, reputation, etc).

Any rig currently on the US market is freefly safe. The Mirage is a nice rig but there are others out there that are equally nice.

The "best" container is the one that fits your body, your canopies and your budget. The "best" manufacturer is one who provides excellent customer service.

Choose your container based on price (what you can afford), delivery time (how long are you willing to wait), and looks (if you think it's ugly you won't be happy with it). Because, all personal opinions aside, they are all going to do what you want them to do when you want them to do it and they've all had occasions when flaps have opened in freefall.

Research. Take what any manufacturer says with a grain of salt. Same with what any skydiver says, cuz we all will tell you that the gear we jump is the best there is.

btw the best container is an Infinity; it must be cuz it's what I jump.