Re: [Michele] Cross Keys -- Fatality -- Press Clips

[billvon 2,426]

>I guess what I'm trying to say is that once a certain line is crossed,
>the personal prohibition to NOT do something is lessened.

I'm the opposite. I used to not care about landing near treelines; then I did. and ended up in a wheelchair as a result. I don't land downwind of treelines any more. I used to jump hungover - then I had a really bad case of hypoxia on one dive (couldn't even see for part of the dive) so I don't do that any more. If I had not "crossed those lines" I would not now have such an aversion to doing those things.

I think this is true for many other people as well. I used to hope that people didn't get hurt when they downsized quickly. Now I hope they break their femurs, because femurs heal well but they are scary injuries, and most people can learn from a mistake of that magnitude. And a jumper who has learned how badly they can get hurt under a small canopy is more likely to survive in the long run (usually.)

[InflightSupv 0]

This whole thread has been very enlightening to me who only has one jump and is waiting for my broken arm to heal. I hope I can learn through others mistakes so when I get my chance, I will decide correctly.

[beezyshaw 0]

>I used to hope that people didn't get hurt when they downsized quickly. Now I hope they break their femurs...

Bill is such a nice guy, I'm just sitting here laughing my ass off thinking about him seeing some young hot dog laying there in the landing area screaming in pain, and Bill saying, "I sure am glad that kid did that"!!

[slug 1]

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This whole thread has been very enlightening to me who only has one jump and is waiting for my broken arm to heal. I hope I can learn through others mistakes so when I get my chance, I will decide correctly.

Jumping is reality you screw up you can "hurt yourself real bad". I'm afraid of dieing befor it's my time so when I'm "impaired" legal/illegal sit on the couch and and try and operate the remote contol.

Ever notice that a lot of folks "team up" when jumping? It onot only about a persons ability but also about responiability.

Can a DZ detect impaired jumpers and prevent them from jumping? booze and some illegal drugs maybe, prescribed drugs who's going to know.

R.I.P.

[relyon 0]

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... I used to hope that people didn't get hurt when they downsized quickly. Now I hope they break their femurs ...

You actually wish bodily harm upon someone in this sport? That's sick.

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding something here.

Bob

[Zenister 0]

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... I used to hope that people didn't get hurt when they downsized quickly. Now I hope they break their femurs ...

You actually wish bodily harm upon someone in this sport? That's sick.

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding something here.

the alternative... killing themselves.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[tustinr 1]

I think you should read Bill's message again and interpete it in the correct way. Use some lateral thinking !

A cypress is the cheapest life insurance you will ever be able to buy.

Rich

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Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught.

[billvon 2,426]

>You actually wish bodily harm upon someone in this sport? That's sick.

There are some people in this sport who are eventually going to get hurt. I've met a lot of them and watched them break thumbs, femurs, pelvises and worse. If they break their arms or thumbs, it doesn't stop them from doing whatever stupid thing they are doing - and their next incident may be a fatality. If they break their pelvises or backs, they may not recover - and that's bad.

But if they break their femurs, it scares them and they a) realize they can die doing this and b) they then fully recover. After that they are safer skydivers, and are much more likely to make it to their 30's.

So I used to meet people like that and hope they never got hurt. Now I hope they only break their femurs, because in the long run that will let them keep skydiving without such a serious risk of death, brain damage or paralysis - and it REALLY sucks when that happens.

[relyon 0]

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So I used to meet people like that and hope they never got hurt. Now I hope they only break their femurs, because in the long run that will let them keep skydiving without such a serious risk of death, brain damage or paralysis - and it REALLY sucks when that happens.

The addition of the word "only" changes the meaning of your message, but I still think it's pretty sick to want people to get hurt. I've seen plenty of folks bust themselves up and a couple fatalities. Some were the results of their actions, some weren't. It all sucks, it's all bad, regardless of who or why.

If there is never another incident to post in this forum, it won't be soon enough.

Bob

[Zenister 0]

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I think you should read Bill's message again and interpete it in the correct way. Use some lateral thinking !

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If they break their arms or thumbs, it doesn't stop them from doing whatever stupid thing they are doing - and their next incident may be a fatality. ....

But if they break their femurs, it scares them and they a) realize they can die doing this and b) they then fully recover. After that they are safer skydivers, and are much more likely to make it to their 30's.

care to try again... laterally??

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[jumpinjackflash 0]

Dude, your still not getting it.

The man is saying, he'd RATHER SEE SOMEONE LEARN!!!!

As Opposed to becoming a FATALITY.

HE"S NOT SAYING HE WANTS TO SEE PEOPLE HURT.

As far as never seeing another incident? I'm sorry, I agree, it'd be nice, it'd also be nice to solve world hunger.

But??? The reality of it is this is simply a damn dangerous sport. So many people try to talk it down, say it's less dangerous than driving.

BLAHBLAHBLAH.

Jumping out of aircraft with handily crafted bed sheets over our heads, then attempting to land them in a real pretty way???

It's actually rather amazing more incidents don't occur.

However, BOTTOM LINE???

Ya surely shouldn't be doing this shit in anything less than a completely lucid state of mind.



jjf

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[fundgh 0]

I would like to know how many people who have died hookin it in, have had previous "serious" injuries. I would guess not many.

I keep reading posts about detecting intoxication...In my limited experience around jumpers who use drugs or alcohol prior to jumping, I have found that it is fairly known. It may not be obvious, but people know if there is somebody at the DZ who drinks or smokes before jumping. It has always been frowned upon, yet the back has always been turned. I have always avoided jumping with or in a group near these people. I find that it is a very difficult situation to "Do the right thing" about. I didn't say anything, because I was fairly cofident that the pilot, DZO, and STA all know and choose not to do anything. I have chosen to jump there, and I alson know that if I am not comfortable, I can choose not to jump there. The point...detecting a drinking/smoking jumper is not the hard part, protecting each other, and making a statement is very difficult in a lot of situations.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[billvon 2,426]

>but I still think it's pretty sick to want people to get hurt.

I want people to learn before they get seriously hurt or killed. Sometimes the only way for them to learn is to get hurt. Sad but true for some people. And if they do have to get hurt to save their lives, I hope it's something that will heal well.

Case in point. While I was S+TA at Brown there was a guy that was downsizing insanely quickly. When he couldn't land his current canopy he'd get a smaller one; the theory was that a smaller canopy had more lift. Everyone (including me) talked to him about it. He couldn't hear what we said.

He left Brown before Buzz or I grounded him; he headed up to Perris. He had a few minor injuries, but nothing serious. It was only a matter of time before he became a statistic. Then he broke his femur. It saved his life - it really scared him. He upsized and got good training. He actually started getting _more_ performance out of the larger canopy once he learned to fly it.

A few years ago he came in first in the PST slalom event. I talked to him one night at Perris. "Bill, I just couldn't listen to you guys years ago," he told me. "It took getting hurt to make me listen." I'm glad he broke his femur; it saved his life.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I do agree. There`s a point we have to realize that skydiving is not just sunshine,blue sky and wind. For some people it takes a serious injury to put them on the safe way. It shouldnt done fearless. We should know the risks and we have to face with them.

[skyyhi 0]

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The addition of the word "only" changes the meaning of your message, but I still think it's pretty sick to want people to get hurt. I've seen plenty of folks bust themselves up and a couple fatalities. Some were the results of their actions, some weren't. It all sucks, it's all bad, regardless of who or why.

I think you are missing the point of his message. He doesn't want anyone to get hurt. Never did. He hopes everyone will skydive safely. But the fact remains that there are those who won't. For them, he hopes the only serious injury they suffer is a broken femur. . .the alternative is death. Which would you prefer?

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[dnewcomer 0]

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I hope I can learn through others mistakes so when I get my chance, I will decide correctly.

You are very wise.

"Highly intelligent people learn from the mistakes of others. Stupid people need to make their own."
--Anonymous

D--
WEB SITE: www.newconthenet.com

[Nightingale 0]

I think Bill's dead on. If someone doesn't get hurt, and they're doing stupid shit, they're going to keep doing stupid shit. If they get hurt enough to scare them, they'll stop doing stupid shit and might live longer.

A similar example: I taught karate lessons for years. I didn't like smacking my students around. BUT... if they did a technique wrong, and continued to do so after I'd spoken with them and corrected them nicely, I'd show them what happens when they keep making that mistake. they'd get smacked around a bit, and the next time, when they did that technique, they'd do it right, because they had a new understanding about why its important.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think Bill's dead on. If someone doesn't get hurt, and they're doing stupid shit, they're going to keep doing stupid shit. If they get hurt enough to scare them, they'll stop doing stupid shit and might live longer.

I agree that there are many out there who will only learn the REALLY HARD way. But in wishing for a leg break, I'd ask one question first - how many of these dead men walking actually do die or break a leg, rather than just get lucky and grow out of the phase? Over the last 10 years it may be 100 who died - surely there's a lot more hot shots around than that.

Does a femur actually recover to 100%? I was under the impression it is slow to heal and never complete. Is that outdated in the titanium era?

[teason 0]

I hate to say it but sometimes you hear about someone hurting themselves and you're happy. Not because they are injured but because it's nothing compared to what you thought would happen to them.

I knew a guy who was an absolute idiot under canopy. When he downsized I thought that was it. he was a deadman.

One day at the DZ someone asked "Did you here what happened to so-and-so" I can't express the relief I felt when I found out he had a badly broken ankle.

What is sick is that if they just listened and learned from more experienced jumpers it wouldn't have happened.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[billvon 2,426]

>Does a femur actually recover to 100%?

Depends on the break, age of the person, whether they smoke, whether they are serious about rehab, whether they listen to their doctor etc. A 55 year old smoker may never be back at 100%, but Molly broke her pelvis and her femur and is as good as new. (26 year old body builder.)

[phil6086 0]

I'll tell you these posts have bought up alot of memories from hurt pride and mistakes I've made.I remeber wanting to down size before I had even 30 jumps That changed when I chowed on poop hill in Chambersburg. Broke my cossics Hurt like hell couldn't get my A license that weekend But I learned. Next I was doing my first free fly coaching with Monkey Claw. We spent the morning going over important equipment, Cypress Audible, handles and what was wrong with the rig I have for sit flying. I log it all to memory and went about doing the coach jumps. On my third jump I was in a spin and I lost altitude awareness till 2200 feet said oh shit threw my hackey and landed ok. Still got that on tape still gives me chills. Next week bought audible. haven't gone low since. Still don't have cypress but need better rig than my dolphin probably get both when I down size.

[Zenister 0]

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Does a femur actually recover to 100%? I was under the impression it is slow to heal and never complete. Is that outdated in the titanium era?

my doctor tells me they can and do, at a little less than 2 months after i femured myself, i could walk without crutches or even a cane for the most part... I'm stretching to get my full range of motion back but the xrays show bone growth is going fabulously...

i'm not sure I was in the category Bill is talking about (i'm sure some will disagree ) but it's certainly given me reason (and time) to think about how/why i do things the way i do and how i can improve my approach (by being more aware, more planned and deliberate when taking 'excessive' risks) to help prevent myself from making the same mistakes again.

I completely agree Nightingale, i see (saw) the exact same behavior, bad habits/techniques in fencing and kendo.... I think i might be less 'nice' about it though.. after i've made a correction to someone's technique, if they revert to the 'old habit' i make them 'pay' for it right then and everytime they repeat it afterwards. Sometimes negative reenforcement is the only thing that works..... unfortunately more and more our 'touchy feelie' society often believes its better to coddle someone and limits it's response to only the positive...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Scrumpot 1]

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Next week bought audible. haven't gone low since.

Please be careful with this! ...An audible should never be relied upon to tell you when to pull, or when to break-off, or when you are too low. They should be a BACK-UP ONLY and becoming "comfortable" just because you have purchased an audible scares me.

See: psychological studies entitled "Pavlov" (et al) for some clear illustrations to ponder.

Just think about this one a little more, that's all.
Blue Skies!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone