POLL : Left or Right

[billvon 2,433]

>and people who made mistakes such as yourself.

To be fair, the poll was a bit poorly worded. It can be summed up as:
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Poll:

LEFT HAND PATTERN
RIGHT HAND PATTERN

Provide your answer on the attached picture.
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That's a bit confusing. How do you put your answer on the picture? It took a second reading to realize you meant "provide your answer to the question referencing the picture that I have attached."

Had the poll been "What does this picture indicate? 1) left hand pattern 2) right hand pattern" you may have gotten clearer answers.

I think most people understand that right pattern means they have to turn right - but if you asked them 'what side of that field would a right hand pattern be flown on?" they'd have to face into the wind and think about it for a second.

[jacketsdb23 45]

I think the sport as a whole could use more education and more training. But this needs to continue after the students have gotten off of student status. I remember growing up on a small cessna DZ where education and training was 90% of the small talk. Even for licensed skydivers. That may not be as realistic at a large DZ but it warrants some thought.

Personally, thats why I like to hang out at the DZ after the sun goes down so I can sit and talk with people who have made mistakes and have learned from them. yes I like the beer, and yes I like the people even more but education and training doesn't end with an A license. Not all skydivers can stay at the DZ after hours. Maybe we can all just do a little more to pass some information on to the new guys (like me) and to the even newer guys (10 jump AFF graduate).

I'm basically rambling on here but I feel like a lot of low number jumpers have a problem asking questions about something that maybe they feel they *should* already know, as the question posed in this poll.

My dad always told every student in his SL class....The only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

Thanks for listening.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

In light of a recent few ridiculous posts that I have read on here, it is evident that training is either not being properly provided or people are quickly forgetting what they learned in the early days of their training, ie. the basics.

So please amuse me, and a side bet that I have going and please provide your answer to the question on the picture that I have attached to this post. I would greatly appreciate your input. If not for me, do it for science.

Feel free to comment as well.

If there was a compass rose pointer, with North to the top, I'd call it a west pattern.

Some DZs use the west-pattern, east pattern, north pattern, south pattern nomemclature to refer to patterns.

Skydance and Perris both have East patterns. That way you don't have to remember left or right or your other right, just what side of the landmark you need to be in your pattern, no matter what the winds are.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[plummeteer 0]

I never had a problem with the pattern as I flew a lot with my Dad as a kid and he was always trying (sometimes in vain) to teach me stuff. The donut thing confused me for a while, the way I remember it and sometimes tell others to when they turn the wrong way dirt diving (will work with the pattern too) is the Hokey Pokey, you put your right hand in, it's a right hand donut etc.

Edo
Concumbui
Aethrae Cernuare

[scratch69 0]

Well at least your being fair Bill. Everything on this damn website is poorly worded. I put up a cheesy poll and all of a sudden everyone is an english major? Obviously you can't answer a JPG attachment, if that confused some of you, then skydiving is probably not the best activity for you, but do keep your helmets on please!

- - i was sent here to disturb the peace - -

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

In light of a recent few ridiculous posts that I have read on here, it is evident that training is either not being properly provided or people are quickly forgetting what they learned in the early days of their training, ie. the basics.

So please amuse me, and a side bet that I have going and please provide your answer to the question on the picture that I have attached to this post. I would greatly appreciate your input. If not for me, do it for science.

Feel free to comment as well.

If there was a compass rose pointer, with North to the top, I'd call it a west pattern.

Some DZs use the west-pattern, east pattern, north pattern, south pattern nomemclature to refer to patterns.

Skydance and Perris both have East patterns. That way you don't have to remember left or right or your other right, just what side of the landmark you need to be in your pattern, no matter what the winds are.

.

The FAA approved Airmans' Information Manual contains the attached picture in Chapter 4, of a LEFT HAND PATTERN. This would be the nomenclature used by all US pilots, air traffic controllers and airport operators.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pilotdave 0]

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The FAA approved Airmans' Information Manual contains the attached picture in Chapter 4...

Since we love pointless arguments here, I'll remind you that they changed the name over 10 years ago to the Aeronautical Information Manual, you non-politically-correct pig! How insensitive can a person be?!

Dave

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Since we love pointless arguments here, I'll remind you that they changed the name over 10 years ago to the Aeronautical Information Manual, you non-politically-correct pig! How insensitive can a person be?!

Dave

How insensitive would you like me to be? Always willing to oblige.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Some DZs use the west-pattern, east pattern, north pattern, south pattern nomemclature to refer to patterns.

Skydance and Perris both have East patterns. That way you don't have to remember left or right or your other right, just what side of the landmark you need to be in your pattern, no matter what the winds are.

Ummmm... WTFO?

East Pattern... West Pattern... North Pattern... South Pattern... Perris has an East Pattern... [sarcasm]which way is North?... is Mickey's big hand on the N and his little hand on the E, or is it the other way around? Which way is Right?... no your other Right? Some people cannot remember their left from their right? I guess the right hand rule doesn't quite work if you use your left hand? Is their any gyroscopic-precession involved here? What about the Coriolis Effect? Does this all do a 180 for our skydiver friends, say, in Australia?[/sarcasm]

*sigh* ... is this a case of trying to re-invent the wheel?

And I thought the concept of a Left Hand or Right Hand Pattern with respect to one's final direction of landing was such an easy concept to understand.

Jan, can you post a picture of the DZ at Perris showing this "East Pattern" to the (I assume) grass landing area... I don't get it.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Jan, can you post a picture of the DZ at Perris showing this "East Pattern" to the (I assume) grass landing area... I don't get it.

sure

To me it is easier to understand an East pattern as opposed to:

If you land North to South then do a left hand pattern
AND
if you land South to North then do a right hand pattern.

of course you do need to know which way is east. If you get to the DZ early, you can tell which way is east because this big sunshiny thing pops up over the San Jacinto Mountains.

or on second thought you could just say do your pattern on the far side of the runway.

I should also add for those that don't jump at Perris, that you can ONLY land to the North or to the South in the grass area and the first one down determines that direction.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[matthewcline 0]

But in your Jpeg you show a Left and a Right hand pattern.

The Compass idea may seem good at first but you just made a great and colorful argument on why it is flawed.

Left and right is used by the aviation community Civilian and Military alike, and in my line of work I have seen it is international.

So why Don't we just go with an already established standard and teach it right in the FJC?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[scratch69 0]

You know, if anything these various responses are just adding to the confusion. This year at safety day, how about everyone makes this one of the main topics of discussion. It appears as though we could all use a refresher. Fly safe.

- - i was sent here to disturb the peace - -

[speedy 0]

We teach our FJC in German, it being a German DZ and all.
We teach, literally translated, "last turn is left". What is known as a left hand pattern by you guys.

Of course that can be confusing if you make the penultimate turn right, and the last turn left.
It works for us though.

As a side note, we also experimented with a left hand pattern when the wind was coming from the east, all other times a right hand pattern. A little like Perris, different patterns for different wind situations, mainly to keep traffic away from the runway. After a couple of years, this was abandoned as all to often the jumpers forgot which pattern was in force and we hand them doing both patterns at the same time. Scary.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[JerryBaumchen 1,064]

Hi scratch,

Interesting.

I read the poll question/understood it.

I looked at the pic/understood it.

I then answered correctly; or at least the 80+% correctly.

Easy,

Jerry

[scratch69 0]

What a concept, huh? At the time of this post 38 people have gotten it wrong. Again, if there are still morons answering wrong intentionally, that is fine. I still believe that there are at least a couple of people that truly answered incorrectly and I hope this thread has helped those people. Regardless, this topic is very important and should be addressed more often and really beaten into new students at the beginning of their progression as well as throughout.

- - i was sent here to disturb the peace - -

[AFFI 0]

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I hope this thread has helped those people.

I am not certain what is being concluded.

Can you give a synopsis please?
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[scratch69 0]

This was nothing short of a survey. One to uncover whether all jumpers out there in skydive-land know their shit when it comes to flying a simple landing pattern. The conclusion : 13% of the populace needs a refresher. And if you want to question the accuracy of that number, please refer to posts above where I concede that the number is probably inaccurate. The number itself is not the issue. The fact that we are all jumping with someone out there who does not understand a simple pattern, is a REAL issue that needs to be addressed.

- - i was sent here to disturb the peace - -

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

But in your Jpeg you show a Left and a Right hand pattern.

The Compass idea may seem good at first but you just made a great and colorful argument on why it is flawed.

Left and right is used by the aviation community Civilian and Military alike, and in my line of work I have seen it is international.

So why Don't we just go with an already established standard and teach it right in the FJC?

Matt

I believe the patterns are taught as right/left in fjc across the US.

The picture does show two patterns because two patterns are used at Perris, - usually - not at the same time.

Maybe it's a California thing. Of course you need a runway predominately N-S or E-W.

I do know that some out of towners do understand the East pattern explanation better than if you fly this way then it's that handed.


Scratch - I would not put much faith in a poll here to make conclusions about how many people understand patterns.
Perris has a mockup of the landing area painted on the cemet. Students walk over the painted DZ and demonstrate their pattern. Whether they remember it's called left or right handed really makes no difference as long as they understand they do the downwind from here to there, crosswind from here to there and final from here to there.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[headoverheels 291]

Quote

This was nothing short of a survey. One to uncover whether all jumpers out there in skydive-land know their shit when it comes to flying a simple landing pattern. The conclusion : 13% of the populace needs a refresher. And if you want to question the accuracy of that number, please refer to posts above where I concede that the number is probably inaccurate. The number itself is not the issue. The fact that we are all jumping with someone out there who does not understand a simple pattern, is a REAL issue that needs to be addressed.

Probably more like 2%, after you take out the respondents who answered without looking at the picture, those who would know the answer but read the question wrong, and the deliberate wrong answers by people who don't like your avatar.

[AFFI 0]

So, it's a right hand pattern?

[scratch69 0]

Quote

Perris has a mockup of the landing area painted on the cemet. Students walk over the painted DZ and demonstrate their pattern. Whether they remember it's called left or right handed really makes no difference as long as they understand they do the downwind from here to there, crosswind from here to there and final from here to there.

I understand what you are saying, yes, Perris has a great awareness program. How about the other 268 DZ's across the US ? I am losing interest in beating this dead horse. We are all focused on safety? Good. Thats all I care about. This topic is officially closed, from my perspective anyhow. Feel free to talk amongst yoursleves.

headoverheels :

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and the deliberate wrong answers by people who don't like your avatar.

Good one, I forgot to take that into account.

- - i was sent here to disturb the peace - -

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Nah, we're not all focused on safety, really... all you have to do is read the two threads in the Incidents forums about the two fatalities at Eloy on 30 & 31 Dec 06 as well as the several other threads they spawned and I think its pretty easy to get the vibe that there are lots of folks that are "all for safety" as long as "it doesn't inconvenience them" or make them "make a change to their habits." Its the skydiving version of NIMBY!

[DA50 0]

Here is another question. What is the default, standard pattern if nothing else is designated?

[kallend 1,647]

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Here is another question. What is the default, standard pattern if nothing else is designated?

In aviation generally, it's a left hand pattern (that is, 90 degree left turns eventually aligning you with the final approach path).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[recovercrachead 0]

So if the first jumper down flew the pattern the wrong way should everyone follow him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Track high, Pull LOW!!!