What to do when Jump Pilot isn't licensed???

[JUDYJ 0]

I understand the power of the network all too well.
I'm not moving ahead without thought.

HOWEVER, I'm not the one who did anything wrong~

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[quade 3]

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Back when I was a flight instructor, I used to keep a file of Interps from the FAA Office of Legal Councel; let me assure you that what I read in the original post in this thread is -absolutely- illegal (if the information posted is accurate).

I have the case on my book shelf.

Is this what you're looking for? Very very interesting read. May clear up some questions others have raised here about private pilots and compensation vs club members.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cLGgh097otkJ:www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/5051.PDF+FAA+skydiving+pilots+compensation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari

**would have pulled up the .pdf file instead of the .html file, but the NTSB .pdf file seems to be broken at this time.

ltdiver

Excellent find, but that's not actually the precident setting one I was looking for.

The Interp I'm looking for is 90-30. That would be the FAA Office of Legal Counsel Interp 90-30 from 1990.

I -believe- that is the precedent case.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JUDYJ 0]

Exactly what is motivating me along here. I can't stand the thought that at some point and time... we all loose because someone asked the good ole boy network of friends to back him up....

Why are the rules only written for some??

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[JUDYJ 0]

To clarify for myself,,

some say that if the pilot doesn't take any money for himself as pay then he claims he isn't compensated for flying???

But flying and getting the time in... does qualify as pay all the same???

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[bob.dino 0]

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The Interp I'm looking for is 90-30. That would be the FAA Office of Legal Counsel Interp 90-30 from 1990.

The FAA search engine for Legal Interpretations.

[Lindsey 0]

I've made lots of jumps with unlicensed pilots and private pilots....sometimes you take what you can get. If you're uncomfortable with who your pilot is, then don't get in the plane. Walk away. Go elsewhere. But "tattling" just ain't cool, imho.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[JUDYJ 0]

We aren't talking about who ate the last cookie in the cookie jar here???

Tattling isn't exactly the name of this game...

So may I ask you? When you go to the Doctor.. and he really isn't a doctor,,, but he gave you a thorough exam......

you'd be OK with that too?>?

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[quade 3]

Thanks.

Here it is;

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1990/Lincoln.rtf

Note the date. This case has been used time and time again as THE precedent in "flight time equals compensation".

For those unaware of how the FAA works;

If you ever have a question about a regulation, you can write the Office of Legal Counsel for an interpertation (Interp) of it. They'll study the matter and write a responce. Once the responce is written and published into the record, it has the become an extension of the regulation it pertains to. In other words, it becomes part of the regulation, whether you know the Interp or not. Pity the J-Aid doesn't have all the Interps printed in it. Would be WAY more valuable than the freekin' time zones map (at least to the average pilot).

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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To clarify for myself,,

some say that if the pilot doesn't take any money for himself as pay then he claims he isn't compensated for flying???

But flying and getting the time in... does qualify as pay all the same???

Yes.

Quoting from the Interp;

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It could be argued that the accumulation of flight time is not always of value to the pilot involved. The FAA does not consider it appropriate to enter into a case-by-case analysis to determine whether the logging of time is of value to a particular pilot, or what the pilot's motives or intentions are on each flight.

Lemme interpret that myself, ". . . always and we're not going to argue the matter any further."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ltdiver 3]

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Thanks.

Here it is;

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1990/Lincoln.rtf

Note the date. This case has been used time and time again as THE precedent in "flight time equals compensation".

Thanks for the follow-through response. Now we have the Interp and a case study to follow.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[JUDYJ 0]

thanks for the info.....

very interesting reading and clarification...

mmmmm don't think the judge says anything about it's wrong to tattle... just wrong to fly jumpers without a commercial license....

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[peckerhead 0]

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We aren't talking about who ate the last cookie in the cookie jar here???

Tattling isn't exactly the name of this game...

So may I ask you? When you go to the Doctor.. and he really isn't a doctor,,, but he gave you a thorough exam......

you'd be OK with that too?>?

OK, well, why don't you go file a complaint and put your money where your mouth is.

Please come back and tell us what action is taken against this pilot.

What do you hope will happen? He will lose his ticket?

You never said he was a bad pilot to begin with.

I was taught that these sort of things were best handled at home. What ever happened to "don't shit in your nest?"

Flame away people....It is officialy the end of an era!

[peckerhead 0]

Towing gliders?

WTF? Does that have to do with skydiving?

[quade 3]

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Towing gliders?

WTF? Does that have to do with skydiving?

If you can't see the similarity of the situation, I can't help you.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ltdiver 3]

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Towing gliders?

WTF? Does that have to do with skydiving?

What, no response the the skydiving ntsb report I sent you?

http://www.alameda-aero.com/news/newsletter/AACNewsletterApril2006.pdf

and

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:hD6c32I2_AAJ:www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf+Administrator+v.+Rawlins,+NTSB+Order+No.+EA-4583&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari

Add to that: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cLGgh097otkJ:www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/5051.PDF+FAA+skydiving+pilots+compensation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Tiger 0]

Regs aside, it has been stated this guy owns the dz and has been flying jumpers without a commercial for years. The local FAA guys know what goes on in their back yard. They know this is happening. They are choosing not to enforce the regs. People don't like it when their free lunch goes away. They only have to lift the phone and kiss your happy life good-bye. Think long and hard about this.
If this were a new development, by all means call. It's not, so you better be prepared to face consequences- life changing consequences- when you go poke at this snake. I've seen it happen.

[peckerhead 0]

OK...So in this case the judgement of the court was:

ACCORDINGLY, IT IS ORDERED THAT:1.Respondent’s appeal is denied; and2. The 45-day suspension of respondent’s private pilotcertificate shall begin 30 days after service of this order.9HALL, Chairman, FRANCIS, Vice Chairman, HAMMERSCHMIDT, GOGLIA,and BLACK, Members of the Board, concurred in the above opinionand order.(..continued)8Cf. Administrator v. Reimer, 3 NTSB 2306 (1980), where wefound that, when a pilot’s purpose is to gain flight time and thepassenger’s purpose is to skydive, the two do not share a commonpurpose.9For the purpose of this order, respondent must physicallysurrender his certificate to a representative of the FederalAviation Administration pursuant to FAR section 61.19(f).

In other words he got his private pilots license suspended for 45 days.

Another judge might have waived it and he would have got nothing.

In most cases it would never have been brought to court in the first place.

Do you really want to bring every thing we do before a judge?

Think long and hard about that one......

[ROK 0]

I was taught that these sort of things were best handled at home. What ever happened to "don't shit in your nest?"

Flame away people....It is officialy the end of an era!
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My father taught me that if you have a problem with someone, approach them, explain calmly and clearly the problem to them, why it's a problem, the things that could happen because of the problem, and if they give you an attitude and don't listen, proceed with correcting the problem for them.

Rule #1- First make sure that there is a problem.

From the examples posted, there seems to be one (legally)

I've always believed in self-policing, and a large part of my attraction to skydiving is that the family keeps and eye out for, and helps one another. If you're out of line, someone is going to tell you about it.

Has anyone approached this individual and said "there seems to be an issue"?

[stratostar 5]

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skydiving is that the family keeps and eye out for, and helps one another

You need to read the crash repots for the 92 hinkely crash and see how "keeping it all in the family" helped a bunch to an early grave.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ROK 0]

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skydiving is that the family keeps and eye out for, and helps one another

You need to read the crash repots for the 92 hinkely crash and see how "keeping it all in the family" helped a bunch to an early grave.

I will read it.

If you're going to quote me, quote everything I wrote.

"and if they give you an attitude and don't listen, proceed with correcting the problem for them."

There's a good reason for most laws and regulations. There's also a way to correct issues that don't involve going to the top and inviting government in your front door. At times bringing something to someones attention will correct the problem.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anywhere in my post where I said that inaction is the best course.

[stratostar 5]

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I will read it.

If you're going to quote me, quote everything I wrote.

"and if they give you an attitude and don't listen, proceed with correcting the problem for them."

There's a good reason for most laws and regulations. There's also a way to correct issues that don't involve going to the top and inviting government in your front door. At times bringing something to someones attention will correct the problem.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anywhere in my post where I said that inaction is the best course.

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"and if they give you an attitude and don't listen, proceed with correcting the problem for them."

In this case (and others) trying to talk it over with those involved wouldn't have done any good, anyone who would do as this was, could care less what you have to say about it.

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There's a good reason for most laws and regulations. There's also a way to correct issues that don't involve going to the top and inviting government in your front door. At times bringing something to someones attention will correct the problem.

Again being one of no authorthy, and trying to "bring it to someones attention" won't do any good, unless it is the authorthies from the get go.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anywhere in my post where I said that inaction is the best course.

You would be correct, no where did your post say that, the point is knowing the best action to take.
Approching a DZO who would do as was done in this case, I'm sure they would decided "yea what were doing is wrong, we better remove the engine and have a real A&P do the work, when we get a new engine". They would have told you to fuck off and mind your own buisness and it would be a total waste of time trying to deal with someone who don't give a fuck about following the rules in the first place, if they did, they wouldn't have done what was done and cost a lot of inocent lifes to try to save a buck.

With this pilot, who by all reports has been flying jumpers for years, would be well aware of the reg's and rules for using his ticket, and to chose to disrgard the law for many years, tells me he don't give a fuck about the laws and rules for pilots, what else dose this guy blow off because he don't like the laws /rules, rigging and aircraft maintaince, maybe?
Wouldn't be the first time or the first DZO to do so.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ltdiver 3]

I was trying to be broad about the application of the law and not specific to the first poster's issue. However, to bring that into the picture...yes, go talk to the DZO/pilot about the issue and see what he has to say. If he does not want to comply then he knows what might be coming his way.

You quoted from one of the 3 articles I supplied in my previous post to you. You quoted only 1 back to me. It's unfortunate that it takes someone 'getting caught' to bring them into the regs. If we're self-policing it should be 100% when it comes to this issue. Others above have quoted severe issues (and death) when maintenance issues and quality are ignored. Why does someone have to 'pay for their stubborness'?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Beerlight 0]

She still has 2 options in my OPINION.

Edit to add:

Another recommendation is when starting your jumping career or visiting a new DZ, is to ask the DZO for his/her pilots qualifications. Then you can make a decision on whether to jump there.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Safe and legal overlap a lot, but are 2 very different things. I've seen very good jump pilots with only a private certificate. I've seen jump pilots with all their papers rubber stamped that I won't fly with.

With that said, sounds like this pilot should have the experience and hours by now to get his commercial license. The old outlaw days are fading away, but a few still need to be drug into the 21st century. Dragging this pilot into this century is the job of the DZO. If he doesn't demand it, the uncomfortable jumper should approach the DZO quietly and inform him why they are taking their business elsewhere.

[velvetjo 0]

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Yes, your jump pilot should have a commercial rating. Not sure why this guy your talking about all over the internet doesn't.

And wayyy back when it WAS common for a jump pilot to maybe have only a PPL. But these days it's not legal.

So, like Derek said you have a couple choices, please choose one and stop this thread please........

Just a quick clarification of something that may have gotten lost in the mud of this thread: you don't need a commercial pilot's license to fly jumpers if you don't accept compensation (including flight time) for it.

For example, if my wife (who's a private pilot) and I owned a 182, we could get an A&P to take off the door, file a jump NOTAM, secure landowner permission at the intended DZ, maintain communication with the appropriate ATC, and she could drop me all day long. There is no endorsement or license specific to dropping jumpers, it's only the compensation aspect that will get you in hot water with the FAA.

So what does this tell us? Somebody out there with a financial interest in who can fly what thinks that this flight time = compensation rule interpretation is a good idea. If the FAA were serious about safety in jump operations, there would be an endorsement specific to the activity. Hell, you can't even fly a 182 without a high performance (over 200 HP) endorsement.

BTW, do you think that folks already getting paid for flying jumpers aren't acutely aware of the pilot glut we've had for a while now? Just look up "pay for training" on any of the aviation boards and you'll see pretty quickly that it's perceived as a serious threat to the livelihood of professional (mostly unionized) aviators.

To JudyJ: Do the decent thing and confront the individual you believe to be flying jumpers against FAA policy. If they don't respond, then consider going to the FSDO. This is serious stuff, admittedly, but have a little compassion before you screw with someone's life this profoundly.

Lance

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edited for spelling & punctuation