Maybe the Parachute Symbol was a Clue . . .

[NickDG 23]

Those who read "Flying Magazine" will be familiar with their long running feature called, "I Learned About Flying From That."

Well, here's one from their latest issue and if you can get past the dated artwork and the below quote, you may want to go back to looking at something besides the green light before you leave.

"One cowboy jumped without the green light is my guess."

The confusion in GA concerning parachute ops was and still is appalling. When I was taking flight lessons some years ago my Instructor sent me on a solo x-country that past directly over the Elsinore DZ. When I mentioned I'd probably deviate a bit around there he told me, "No need, stay at 4500-feet and you'll be fine. Those guys jump from 1200-feet."

http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=793

NickD BASE 194

[slotperfect 7]

When I was learning to fly, I did a night cross-country with my instructor, Abe, starting and finishing at Moore County Airport. Camp Mackall, a stand-alone part of the Fort Bragg military reservation, is almost due south of Moore County, so he told me to fly over the top as a reference and pick up a northerly heading to take me straight to Moore County.

Now, Mackall Army Airfield's airspace ends at 2900 feet, and is only in effect when the tower is open (normally only during the day).

Abe told me that the tower was closed, and we were above their airspace anyway, so I was perfectly legal to overfly the airport. I told Abe that I personally have made high altitude MFF jumps at Camp Mackall at night, and I would not overfly the area unless I called someone.

Fort Bragg Range Control monitors MAAF's CTAF when the tower is closed, so I called them to ensure a safe passage. Abe made a note to do the same with all of his students.

I was amazed that this was not common knowledge.

Arrive Safely

John

[yardhippie 0]

Shouldn't (noticie I said 'should') there have been a NOTAM if there were any jumping in operations, or is it b/c its a military installation they dont have to file?

But I suppose, that even the NOTAM wont tell you from what altitude they are operating huh?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[akjmpplt 0]

Quote

Shouldn't (noticie I said 'should') there have been a NOTAM if there were any jumping in operations, or is it b/c its a military installation they dont have to file?

But I suppose, that even the NOTAM wont tell you from what altitude they are operating huh?

There will be no Notam if the parachute operation is "published"...if it's listed in the Airport Facility Directory.

Notams and the A/FD both give operation times and altitudes.

SmugMug

[tombuch 0]

Quote

The confusion in GA concerning parachute ops was and still is appalling.

The confusion within the skydiving community is equally appalling.

Part 105.5 says:

"No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or persons or property on the surface."

In this case the transient aircraft probably should have deviated, or the jump plane should have held off, or the ATC controller should have sorted the conflict. Any one of those things would have prevented the incident. However, the airspace belongs to all users, including transient pilots, and the FAR's make it very clear that jumpers are not permitted to jump if it creates a hazard.

Quote

When I was taking flight lessons some years ago my Instructor sent me on a solo x-country that past directly over the Elsinore DZ. When I mentioned I'd probably deviate a bit around there he told me, "No need, stay at 4500-feet and you'll be fine. Those guys jump from 1200-feet."

A couple of years ago when I was S&TA at The Ranch we had a group of four bi-planes fly directly over the DZ at about 1,500 feet. Later in the day they flew over again in the opposite direction. I was able to track the four-ship and spoke with flight lead who said he believed parachutes open at about 3,000 feet, so he selected the lower crossing altitude to enable his pilots to see and avoid any parachutes. His tune changed when I explained we drop as many as 40 parachutes at a time, and that his four airplanes would be hard pressed to avoid multiple targets. I suggested he give us a call the next time he was intending to overfly the drop zone and we would be happy to clear the airspace for his group. Education works.

At another point I was speaking at a large pilot fly-in near our drop zone. My discussion topic was airspace and how jumpers and pilots can work together. A local flight instructor stood up and said his very active school sends all their students on cross country flights directly over our DZ, and he 'wondered' if that was a problem. I suggested that he use that cross country as a means of teaching his students about drop zones, and suggested he show them the parachute symbol on the chart. Then they could find ways to deviate, or use the radio to call us when they were five miles out. Likewise, if they were monitoring ATC they would know about our activity level. I let him know we would be happy to hold jump operations to let a student pilot cross overhead. Education works.

It's important that we reach out to the pilot community and help them to understand what we do. It's equally important to reach within the skydiving community and make sure all of our jumpers understand their responsibility to avoid creating a hazard.

Oh yeah, the art work in this article is an outrage!

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[2fat2fly 0]

The "we will work with you" attitude that you carried in to the meetings does a great deal in encouraging the GA community to think of us as fellow members instead of those wild-eyed, thrill seeking troublemakers. Their support could pay big dividends when the new airport manager (generic situation) wants to shut down the DZ and court more corporate operators. Thanks for being a good representative.

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[billvon 2,426]

>The confusion within the skydiving community is equally appalling.

Agreed. I have been involved in a few close calls, and in every one, local skydivers were outraged that the pilot thought he was "allowed" to fly near the drop zone. A few wanted to get his tail number so they could report his "violation" to the FAA.

[SWATcop 0]

I have seen close calls at every DZ I have jumped at here in Florida. I think its just going to be a matter of time until someone hits a plane.

Kevin

Muff Brother #4041
Team Dirty Sanchez #467

[milehighpres 0]

i work and jump at a air force base in westhampton beach and skydive long island in calverton long island. during our peak business (summer) comming fast. the exclusivly super -unfriggin believably rich people of the hamptons will be flying back and forth every weekend in there helicopters and private aircraft. yes our dropzone is huge... it is a retired navy aircraft factory with two runways one 10K long and the other 7K long. you cant miss us. well every load there are helicopters passing through our airspace without calling the field or anything. and to be helicopter blades from the top looks like a friggin blender.

there are literally hundreds of helicopters a day passing back and forth. every load you can see at least 3-4 passing by

"the sky is not the limit....the ground is"

[tombuch 0]

Quote

i work and jump at a air force base in westhampton beach and skydive long island in calverton long island. during our peak business (summer) comming fast. the exclusivly super -unfriggin believably rich people of the hamptons will be flying back and forth every weekend in there helicopters and private aircraft....there are literally hundreds of helicopters a day passing back and forth. every load you can see at least 3-4 passing by

My guess is that the helicopter pilots are flying with GPS/FMS systems and instrument enroute charts, and don't know you exist. They would probably be supportive of your interests if they knew the specifics of your operations. Education really works.

There are several ways to attack the problem, depending on where those super-unfriggin-believably rich people are going to or coming from.

First, if there are a couple of designated helicopter landing areas on the Hamptons, you could contact the airport manager and post a notice there for pilots. Check out:

Southampton Heliport at: http://www.airnav.com/airport/87N

Bistrains Heliport at: http://www.airnav.com/airport/4NY5

East Hampton Airport at: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KHTO

Second, there are not many helicopter companies that do transport work from areas where most of the uber-rich are coming from, so if you could id the choppers and then contact the companies it would help. Hopefully at least some of the helicopters have a company name on them, or grab the tail number and do a search on the FAA web site. As as start, contact NY area heliports as follows (from Google):

E 34 Street Heliport www.avports.com
499 E 34th St, New York, 10016 - (212) 889-2551

Air Pegasus W 30th St Heliport new-york.airportbug.org
335 W 30th St, New York, 10001 - (212) 563-4442

Downtown Heliport
6 E River Dr, New York, 10002 - (212) 248-7240

Third, you could contact the manager of your local approach sector and explain the problem. While ATC probably can't provide guaranteed separation services, they can make it a point to provide transient pilots who are receiving IFR or VFR services with specific advisories beyond the regular "parachute jumping in progress over.... airport, 14,000 and below."

At The Ranch I developed a notice that I have placed in many local pilot lounges and sent to pilot groups that fly in our area. The idea was to be very specific in the way we define the hazard, give pilots several ways to identify our airport, and give them multiple ways to contact us. You could build your own version for SD Long Island and use that as your primary educational element. You can see it and download the document at: http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/pilot_caution.pdf

As you struggle with the issue keep in mind that pilots are just as afraid of hitting jumpers as jumpers are of being hit. Most pilots will be happy to deviate if they know where the hazard is, understand the real impact of the hazard, and have an easy means of avoiding that hazard.

Check with your DZ Manager and/or S&TA. Show them this post and my briefing sheet, and get together to solve your problem before the summer party season starts in the Hamptons.

Good luck..

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[bclark 0]

Parachute Symbol? I thought it was an ice cream cone! (We always joke that those local pilots are looking for an ice cream stand.)

[velvetjo 0]

Good stuff, Tom. Another way to get the message out is to talk to the local Experimental Aviation Association (EAA) chapter in your area. I've been an EAA member for several years, and I've found direct communication with local chapters to be a great grassroots medium for local aviation issues.

Besides that, it's a great way to meet powered parachute & ultralight pilots if you're into an occasional ride to altitude in non-traditional jump craft.

Lance

[Eule 0]

Quote

At The Ranch I developed a notice that I have placed in many local pilot lounges and sent to pilot groups that fly in our area.

FWIW, I've seen this done in other parts of the US as well. I was recently on a trip and stopped in at a regional GA airport and a local DZ had a notice like this up on the bulletin board. I don't know how well-read that board actually is, but it seemed to be fairly full of ads for airplanes, current EAA meeting notices, and stuff like that, so it appeared to be pretty popular.

There are scanned versions of the current sectional charts at Skyvector.com; this will help you find nearby airports. Looking up the airports on AirNav will give you the contact details for the airport manager, the FBOs (airplane gas stations) at the airports, etc. You might call ahead if you want to talk to a human when you visit in person; some airports always have somebody there and some are 9-to-5 places.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

The confusion in GA concerning parachute ops was and still is appalling. When I was taking flight lessons some years ago my Instructor sent me on a solo x-country that past directly over the Elsinore DZ. When I mentioned I'd probably deviate a bit around there he told me, "No need, stay at 4500-feet and you'll be fine. Those guys jump from 1200-feet."

Nick,

What was his reaction when you corrected him?

[godfrog 2]

as a jump pilot I give 5min, 3,2, and 1 min noticices to jumpers away on ALL local frequencies and give ATC a 3 min heads up so they can check radar for possible conflicting air traffic. Also when I hang out at area FBO's I talk to pilots about operating near DZ's. they all seem happy to learn what they can for a saftey stand point.

Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[NickDG 23]

>>What was his reaction when you corrected him?<<

It was bit strange at first, as he'd been my CFI from the beginning, and he didn't know I was a jumper. I thought initially he was just mixing up 12,000-feet with 1200-feet, but he wasn't and here's why, but first a bit about him. He was the chief instructor pilot at Oceanside airport, an older guy, and he'd been a fighter pilot in the late part of WW II and the early part of Korea. He'd flow everything, wore cowboy boots and a leather jacket (even in the summer hot) and I really liked him, as all the students did.

But his whole sense of jumping was 1940s paratrooper stuff and he really thought all they did at Elsinore (which he actually knew was a "jumping school") was low military type static line jumps.

When I asked him if he'd every been to an air show and saw skydivers he said of course he had but thought those types of jumps (from high altitude) were stunts done just for the shows. He actually turned a bit white when I explained things to him. He'd been sending his students through Elsinore, with the same advice he gave me (basically following the Ortega Mountains) for years.

The capper was the very next weekend he actually flew up to Elsinore, called us on the Unicom and asked permission to land. He then spent the day on the DZ, and even took a right seat ride in the D-18 Beech with Bob Metz and he came down beaming. Bob had let him fly on the way up and he hadn't flown anything with radial engines for a long time.

I was pretty much his favorite flight student from then on . . .

And of course he re-routed his students from then on.

On the subject of GA and skydiving in general I've had my share of experiences. I was at the Otay Lakes DZ in San Diego when John Nichols was killed in freefall by that Navy C-130 that flew over on its way into North Island. And over the years at Lake Elsinore I know several pilots had close calls, usually on the way down, with aircraft transiting north and south. Zing (Zing Lurks) may know more on that. But one time Gholson (sp?) and I were coming down to pick up another load of static line students and we just missed a Mooney flying over the DZ. And I mean just missed, like it took us a few minutes to compose ourselves.

After that I did my share of educating pilots. I was an A&P mechanic so knew a lot people and my way around So Cal airports so at pilot's meetings I'd show up with Carl Boenish's "Skydive" video and give talks about skydiving operations, and they were always received well.

My worst experience in that area was at the DZ in Buckeye, AZ. We were out there from Perris teaching AFF to Japanese students when I started noticing F-16s passing between us and the ground while in freefall, on a daily basis. It was the Air Force out of Luke AFB so I called the duty officer on the phone one night and tried to explain things. I said I was a skydiving instructor and that we both have a problem, but it went downhill from there, and they basically said there were the Air Force and could do whatever they wanted. I also had some trouble with the DZO after that as his idea was more to stay open rather than stay safe. I quit that night and left and it cost me a ton of money.

Looking at the present day I'd say USPA should mount some type of ongoing program. Since I was doing the pilot meeting thing in the early nineties I don't think anyone is doing it now in our area. Pilot education needs to be an ongoing thing and the USPA could easily field a few people in that role.

Those of us that have been around awhile know these type of incidents, like many in aviation, run in cycles and will happen again . . .

NickD BASE 194

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Good job Nick. Thanks for the 411.


Anyway, I don't have a sectional laying around anymore, but I recall they put something on it in the vicinity of Elsinore & Peris saying something like "Intensive Parachute Operations in this Area"... besides just the little parachute symbol... but I can't recall if there is an altitude associated with that?

[pilotdave 0]

Yep, you can see it at http://skyvector.com.

Says "CAUTION: Intensive Parachute Activity at or below 18,000 MSL
Advisory freq 122.75 or SOCAL 134.0"

There's another similar warning a little farther to the south. Another DZ at Skylark airport?

Dave

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

There's another similar warning a little farther to the south. Another DZ at Skylark airport?

Dunno. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen the FAA put that parachute symbol at the wrong spot. I've even written them about it once... their reaction was "oh well" and didn't seem too interested in fixing it.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Quote

There's another similar warning a little farther to the south. Another DZ at Skylark airport?

Dunno. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen the FAA put that parachute symbol at the wrong spot. I've even written them about it once... their reaction was "oh well" and didn't seem too interested in fixing it.

FAA GADO and FSDO offices really don't seem too interested in charting issues. When I was trying to get a frequency on the chart for The Ranch the Albany FAA office said that since it was a private use facility it would be unusual to list a frequency. They suggested that if a "real emergency" existed I should document it and provide proof that transient aircraft were crossing over the field and were not aware of the DZ. I asked how long it would take to add a frequency if I could show a real emergency, and the FAA said "about two years." Obviously that's foolish.

I checked the back of my chart and found the phone number to report errors, and then spoke directly with the editor. He had the frequency on the chart at the next publication cycle just a few months out. All I had to do was send him a request in writing on company letterhead. The folks who make the charts really care about the accuracy and presentation. The number listed on the chart is 800-626-3677. They also list an e-mail address for corrections as: [email protected].

If you know of an error on your chart, give the charting office a call. Keep in mind they can only work within the specifications of the regulations they are working under. Those regulations are produced by a user group called the Aeronautical Charting Forum that meets about twice a year. USPA attends those meetings on behalf of the skydiving community. If you want something changed on the chart that requires new direction from the ACF, contact USPA for discussion.

There is currently a plan to update the chart and AFD listings for all drop zones, but some confusion about where the source data will come from and how it will be authenticated. Developing a single accurate database is the next step in populating a digital database that will flow to GPS and FMS displays, so there is an aggressive move to get that done, but "aggressive" in FAA speak tends to take a while.

As for the marking on the sectional near Perris, see the link provided on an earlier post as: http://skyvector.com/, and type in the airport designator as L65. You will see a purple circle designating the class "B" airspace, and the warning is just to the lower right

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[NickDG 23]

One thing good about Perris is it's inside March AFBs class "C" airspace. In fact the DZ is within the pattern for large aircraft operating from March's RWY 32.

This helps keep a lot of VFR traffic from over flying the DZ at least below 5500-feet AGL (I think that's the altitude for class C airspace, 4000-feet AGL plus the airport altitude in MSL.) At or below that altitude they'd need to radio March Approach for permission to transit the airspace.

So jumping at Perris you tend to feel protected by the Air Force . . . LOL

NickD BASE 194