Bryan Burke - SDAZ 270 Policy notes

[billvon 2,772]

>So why hasn't SDAZ come foward and offered any alternative to
>those interested in HP turns?

Give them a call and ask them. We're all operating off one short post, a statement of a rule change. There are a lot more rules/procedures at SDAZ than were contained in that statement!

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

They have been pretty explicit in stating economical validity of low passes. (if you want to do a 270 or more just get on a low pass) good luck with that. I'll bet low passes at Eloy now are as rare as a virgin on prom night!

[billvon 2,772]

>I'll bet low passes at Eloy now are as rare as a virgin on prom night!

During boogies? You're probably right. On a typical Friday? I bet you'd have no problems. Again, give em a call and ask them, instead of just debating it here with people who don't know!

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

I'll be there next month, I'll let ya know.

[marks2065 0]

there was 12 deaths between collisions and landings last year of these 9 are related to high performance manuvers (43%)

[B.A.D.D. 0]

then go up to altitude, exit the plane, pull at 13,000ft and practice your turns, rear risers up high right over the landing area and runway. take your time and be safe. if enough ppl do it maybe someone with a brain cell might rethink the whole "low passes not economical" thinking.

<> if you jump naked, can you use your penis as a rudder?<>

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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then go up to altitude, exit the plane, pull at 13,000ft and practice your turns, rear risers up high right over the landing area and runway. take your time and be safe. if enough ppl do it maybe someone with a brain cell might rethink the whole "low passes not economical" thinking.

High pulls are fun and well worth the jump ticket. I know Smiley likes them as well. When they are not ultra busy (like during a big boogie), hopefully SDAZ is open to CReW passes like Perris Valley will do. As long as you follow Perris Valley's don't cross the runway until X altitude, I know they've let me do high pulls at their DZ on a reasonably busy day.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,772]

> then go up to altitude, exit the plane, pull at 13,000ft and practice your turns . . .

Sure, just coordinate with manifest so you're not a hazard to others. At Perris, you can do that via a CRW pass.

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

Planed on doing that too. All part of training.

[chachi 0]

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> then go up to altitude, exit the plane, pull at 13,000ft and practice your turns . . .

Sure, just coordinate with manifest so you're not a hazard to others. At Perris, you can do that via a CRW pass.

SDA does not like high passes either while running multiple aircrafts. i am speaking from experience. besides, when training for high performance landings doing performace drills up high only offer so much benefit. you need the ground reference to practice. doing only high passes not worth the ticket all the time.

i made a post in the other thread going on in swooping forum that they have been incredible clear on their intentions. when you make policy with no alternate solutions you are saying one things; we do not want you hear.

i wish everyone would stop trying to cover up for SDA or sugar coat it. they do not want it going there and are going to make it difficult to begin happening again and setting precedent and expectation.

[Lindsey 0]

when you make policy with no alternate solutions you are saying one things; we do not want you hear.


...we are saying one things; we do not want you hear. You here?

please make allowances for me for I had to much drinks please. thank you.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[OSOK 0]

Quade:

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The reason is that the normal traffic would be crossing the final line of the more aerobatic traffic and anyone doing a straight in would also be in danger.

You're right that the normal traffic would be crossing the final line of the swooper, BUT at that point the normal traffic would be on their base leg, while the swooper is already on final. The idea behidn it, for that graphic to work, is that the swooper MUST do whatever he does OUTSIDE of the box, so when he enters the box he's pretty much already on the deck.

----------------------------------------------------

jacketsdb23:

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I'm not sure why you show right hand and left hand patterns crossing, thats probably not a good idea. I like the idea of having the HP turns outside of the "box" for landing but I don't think the problem is alleviated. This may lead to an 'aggressive' 90º turn by a traditional flyer landing on top of a swooper who is surfing 5' off the ground. Closing speeds for swoopers are very very fast when coming out of their turns.

What if the straight pattern flyer, with his aggressive 90, does it so he ends up on either side of the LZ? I know what you mean about having the different left/right patterns I drew, that's probably a bad idea. I guess I put it to show that either way, left-handed or right-handed would work. It wasn't intended to show both going on at the same time.
I like your PFD. However, wouldn't that require a 'very' large LZ? When I made mine I had my LZ in mind... and tried to keep from having to add area to it.
But yes, I guess the main idea behind both is that the swoopers do whatever turns they want OUTSIDE the box, and come in the LZ already on the ground.

Here are the links to both pictures mentioned above:

Mine: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=81706;

jacket:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=81711;

[georgerussia 0]

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All in all I guess we will not be visiting Eloy any time soon.

That's good.
I know several people (including myself) who would visit Eloy more often if there is no people doing 270 in pattern.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[phoenixlpr 0]

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That's good.
I know several people (including myself) who would visit Eloy more often if there is no people doing 270 in pattern.

That's bad. If you get rid of the experienced and responsible people, the average experience level will drop - having a zoo......

[rehmwa 2]

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then go up to altitude, exit the plane, pull at 13,000ft and practice your turns, rear risers up high right over the landing area and runway. take your time and be safe. if enough ppl do it maybe someone with a brain cell might rethink the whole "low passes not economical" thinking.

I don't believe this comment is intended as constructive. Just venting. If so, a lot of posters share your frustration....

But, if you're serious -

this doesn't sound safe at all at a busy airport - "right over the landing area and runway"?

the landing area there is also well separated from the runway, I thought - playing about both would be dangerous and belligerent as that's where people are falling and flying

Best to work it our with the SDAZ staff to find out how they'd like high openings worked in their environment rather than take a this approach.

Being confrontative and belligerent will make the situation worse and close up any means of working out solutions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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It's just an accident waiting to happen

How do you feel about someone flying their canopy right at you and then turning a 180 at the last possible moment. Under SDAZ's policies this is an accepted maneuver over their north landing area.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[bonzai 0]

If we all believed that, there would be no "United States Of America

[AndyMan 7]

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How do you feel about someone flying their canopy right at you and then turning a 180 at the last possible moment.

.

Per Brian Burke:

"If anyone can give me a convincing explanation of why a 180 is more dangerous than a 270, I’m sure the dz will be willing to ban those as well."

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Guinness_fr 0]

I've been flying (from France) to Eloy every year for the past 3 years in order to practice with my FF team (~100 jumps each for each trip).
If SDAZ does not come up with a plan that allows to perfom HP maneuvers on regular loads then I will start looking for one who does propose an alternate landing area for HP landings.

I like to perform HP maneuvers at least as much as I like to FreeFly, in fact I like HP landings even more but because I'm in a FF team I also need to work on my FF skills (when I'm not training I almost only do Hop&Pops from various altitudes or CRW).

I left Eloy just before they implemented their new pollicy; I agree that some changes are desperately needed: I can't count the number of times that I've landed in the desert or switched to a more conservative approach because of traffic. I've been lucky this year when doing HP landings in the desert because more than half of the time someone was there to pick me up as soon as I'd picked up my stuff (and I much prefer a 5-10min walk than not doing a HP landing), but landing all the time in the desert will cause your gear to wear prematurely so it shouldn't be a long term solution.

I really hope that the local swoopers from SDAZ can come up with a plan with the management there so that HP landings are not banned but rather moved to another area: They made an area next to the tunnel for the military (which weren't using it very often btw), why not make another area on the other side of tunnel or next to the farms in the north?

I applaud SDAZ mgmt for finally coming up with a plan to stop the chaos in their main landing area (although for the plan to be effective they should implement a strict 90° rule, not a 180°!), but unless they come up with an alternate plan for swoopers I won't plan on visiting them again anytime soon.

PS: they have a small swoop pond too but it is way too close to the main landing area to be safe to swoop on regular loads (although I've been guilty of that many times )

-- edited to add that their policy should be 90° not 180°.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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"If anyone can give me a convincing explanation of why a 180 is more dangerous than a 270, I’m sure the dz will be willing to ban those as well."

I have tons of respect for Bryan Burke. I have been very enlighten to speak to him one-on-one on the few occasions I was privilaged to have his attention. But he's twisting words here just like a politician uses words to make people think they are fixing a problem. Bryan knows (just like all of us swoopers) than 180s are just as dicey in traffic as 270s are. He's challenging people to tell him that 180s are more dangerous than 270s. If he was really serious, he would ban 180s as well. But then I'm pretty sure most of his talent from SDAZ would be moving to another DZ if he did that.

No SDAZs policy reminds me of how our politicians treat us with deception to make the masses think they have fixed a problem. The solution to this issue is to segregate slow canopies from the fast ones and wasn't that the purpose behind why Eloy already as 2 (count'em) landing areas.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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wasn't that the purpose behind why Eloy already as 2 (count'em) landing areas.

Speaking of which, why don't the docile canopy pilots of Eloy use the south landing area more often? That's what it's there for. For conservative canopy pilots. If I am wrong, then please Betsy (or someone else who represents SDAZ's management), please tell us why your south landing area even exists? Maybe that one could become the HP landing area while the main landing area becomes the conservative one.

Then again ... Eloy is not my DZ and who am I to make their policies. Let's just hope more DZs don't adopt their stance of low passes not being economically viable.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ashtanga 0]

Canuck stop complaining and if you don't like it simply don't jump at Eloy again. I seriously doubt Larry or Bryan will change their policy because of your posts. Find a DZ that has a HP landing area and make that your home DZ.

Larry can afford to lose jumpers because of this policy. I am sure he took that into consideration and decided another accident involving high speed collisions was not worth it. Will there still be accidents? Yes. But this just may stop a few from happening.

[billvon 2,772]

>If you get rid of the experienced and responsible people

Apparently they will be getting rid of the people who think it's OK to do 270's in traffic, and keeping the "inexperienced and irresponsible" people like Airspeed. I'm good with that.

>the average experience level will drop - having a zoo . . .

Yeah, it will be just like the World Team landing patterns - boring!

[georgerussia 0]

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How do you feel about someone flying their canopy right at you and then turning a 180 at the last possible moment.
Under SDAZ's policies this is an accepted maneuver over their north landing area.

It is accepted maneuver YET. If it starts killing other people as well, I'm sure it will be banned as well.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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That's bad. If you get rid of the experienced and responsible people, the average experience level will drop - having a zoo......

If you mean that those who do 270 in traffic are "experienced and responsible people", I would strongly disagree with you.
I would not agree.

Not to mention being there on Holiday boogie I've personally seen a lot of examples of such a "responsibility". People were cutting each other, outswooping each other, landing towards, and so on. I wish I had a camera to show you now several examples of such a "responsibility".

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *