Swooping is not a crime

[kallend 1,635]

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There are lots of risks in our sport and any one of these could kill you.

some people seem to forget the saying:

"You can do everything right on your skydive, yet still die".

and if they don't understand why this is said, then maybe they should question why they jump in the first place. You can't legislate safety into the world. Governments have been trying to do it for years now and it only produces two types of people. Boring sheep and rebels. Most of us who jump have a little rebel in us despite the sheeps clothing we often wear.

Recent fatalities have highlighted a completely avoidable but very real risk factor, the mitigation of which involves minor changes in behavior of a small group of skydivers - those who choose to swoop into traffic. I really don't know why there is so much support for allowing this behavior to continue. If you don't swoop into traffic, it won't affect you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,406]

>Well I will have to leave that question up to the people who know me.
>To some of them, maybe I am boring. It's not my call.

Hmm. Perhaps there are more than two kinds of people, then! And perhaps some people do follow rules intended to keep them alive - even if they're not boring sheep.

[klingeme 0]

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If you don't swoop into traffic, it won't affect you.

I agree 100% but I do not feel that a blanket rule that people are hearding to like sheep without seeing the actual proposal is a valid solution that will work at every dropzone in the world. I think DZ's need to self police, have an S&TA that is actually at the dropzone the majority of the time and is actually paying attention to Saftey and Training while there, and is not affraid to prull someone to the side and have a frank conversation or even ground someone when needed. The fact that rules exist and get broken very often (cloud punching is a prime example) leads me to believe that legislatin is not the answer. Legislation would only punish people after the life treatening action is taken. Proper education to prevent these things from happening is what needs to be done. This along with better planning (seperate landing areas, or seperate passes, or whatever works for your dropzone) I feel is the only REAL solution to this problem. Slapping someones wrist after busting a BSR or banning them from jumping at a USPA DZ so they have to go find a nonUSPA DZ to jump at is not the solution and is a Knee Jerk reaction that I definantly do not support.

Training and planning needs to be the solution.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[kelpdiver 2]

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There are lots of risks in our sport and any one of these could kill you.

some people seem to forget the saying:

"You can do everything right on your skydive, yet still die".

and if they don't understand why this is said, then maybe they should question why they jump in the first place. You can't legislate safety into the world. Governments have been trying to do it for years now and it only produces two types of people. Boring sheep and rebels. Most of us who jump have a little rebel in us despite the sheeps clothing we often wear.

This is the standard defense #23 that is leading some people to propose the bans. If sport jumpers are supposed to just accept that some person might choose to ignore common sense and kill them from behind, their natural reaction will be to either ban or relocate that person.

Klingeme: do you acknowledge that the risks you list are not at the same level of magnitude?

[raymond_jones 0]

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There are lots of risks in our sport and any one of these could kill you.

some people seem to forget the saying:

"You can do everything right on your skydive, yet still die".

and if they don't understand why this is said, then maybe they should question why they jump in the first place. You can't legislate safety into the world. Governments have been trying to do it for years now and it only produces two types of people. Boring sheep and rebels. Most of us who jump have a little rebel in us despite the sheeps clothing we often wear.

This is the standard defense #23 that is leading some people to propose the bans. If sport jumpers are supposed to just accept that some person might choose to ignore common sense and kill them from behind, their natural reaction will be to either ban or relocate that person.

Klingeme: do you acknowledge that the risks you list are not at the same level of magnitude?

what difference is that from driving your car down the road and getting hit from behind and killed by another driver? get some insurance!!!

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

[mnealtx 0]

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what difference is that from driving your car down the road and getting hit from behind and killed by another driver? get some insurance!!!

So you agree that a driver weaving through traffic at high speed is a danger, then... that's a good start!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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So you agree that a driver weaving through traffic at high speed is a danger

Does the knowledge that there are some dangerous people out there prevent yourself from living your life?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[waltappel 1]

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what difference is that from driving your car down the road and getting hit from behind and killed by another driver? get some insurance!!!

Under some circumstances if a person kills someone else while driving they can (and should) go to prison. The reason is that willful disregard for the safety of others is considered unacceptable by most rational people.

I don't buy into the mentality that jumpers need to accept *all* possible risks of the sport or not jump because some of those risks are from behavior that is unacceptable.

Let's say that I don't think drunk driving to be ok. Does that mean I shouldn't drive and the drunk drivers (and those who think drunk driving is ok) should be the only ones on the road? I don't think so.

What we are talking about is people who may kill themselves and you because they think behavior that puts others at risk is acceptable. The problem is their potential victims aren't given a choice. There is little difference between these jumpers and drunks who get behind the wheel.

Sometimes shit just happens and people get hurt or killed. Some dickhead flying like a maniac and trying to "thread the needle" in the pattern is not even close to being in that category--at least not in my world.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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Does the knowledge that there are some dangerous people out there prevent yourself from living your life?

Sarcasm duly noted. In life outside of skydiving, most people mitigate risks by doing things like staying out of bad neighborhoods, carrying firearms, not driving though areas that have a lot of bars on Friday or Saturday nights, etc.

Many of us want to stay in safe neighborhoods while you and your buddies play in your own risky neighborhood. What is it that is so hard to understand about that? Will it help if l call you and say it really slowly and repeat it several times? If so, PM me with your phone number.

Walt

[mnealtx 0]

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So you agree that a driver weaving through traffic at high speed is a danger

Does the knowledge that there are some dangerous people out there prevent yourself from living your life?

No...but I *DO* take actions to minimize that danger.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jgaley69 0]

Hey the reason there talking about adding a BSR is two fast one hit and both died!

By reading the report here it sounded like one of them F*#ked up doing a 270 in crowded landing are. All of us who jump should know that with that if your jumping fast canopies in that, you got to limit it to 90's for landing!

It's not as easy to land but aleast everyone can walk away!

jgaley69
www.jumpelvis.com

[NeedToJump 0]

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It's not as easy to land but aleast everyone can walk away!

Huh? What's not as easy to land?

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[skinnyshrek 0]

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what difference is that from driving your car down the road and getting hit from behind and killed by another driver? get some insurance!!!

Under some circumstances if a person kills someone else while driving they can (and should) go to prison. The reason is that willful disregard for the safety of others is considered unacceptable by most rational people.

I don't buy into the mentality that jumpers need to accept *all* possible risks of the sport or not jump because some of those risks are from behavior that is unacceptable.

Let's say that I don't think drunk driving to be ok. Does that mean I shouldn't drive and the drunk drivers (and those who think drunk driving is ok) should be the only ones on the road? I don't think so.

What we are talking about is people who may kill themselves and you because they think behavior that puts others at risk is acceptable. The problem is their potential victims aren't given a choice. There is little difference between these jumpers and drunks who get behind the wheel.

Sometimes shit just happens and people get hurt or killed. Some dickhead flying like a maniac and trying to "thread the needle" in the pattern is not even close to being in that category--at least not in my world.

Walt

Not just drunk drivers if i tear down the street run a stop sign and turn into traffic will that be called an accident? I think not.

There are very sensible swoopers out there and there are people like danny. Swooping is noway a crime. I like to do it among 100's of other people i guess. What is a crime is killing innocent people that abide by all the rules just to be taken out by an idiot. Well said walt

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[marks 0]

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what difference is that from driving your car down the road and getting hit from behind and killed by another driver? get some insurance!!!

Under some circumstances if a person kills someone else while driving they can (and should) go to prison. The reason is that willful disregard for the safety of others is considered unacceptable by most rational people.

I don't buy into the mentality that jumpers need to accept *all* possible risks of the sport or not jump because some of those risks are from behavior that is unacceptable.

Let's say that I don't think drunk driving to be ok. Does that mean I shouldn't drive and the drunk drivers (and those who think drunk driving is ok) should be the only ones on the road? I don't think so.

What we are talking about is people who may kill themselves and you because they think behavior that puts others at risk is acceptable. The problem is their potential victims aren't given a choice. There is little difference between these jumpers and drunks who get behind the wheel.

Sometimes shit just happens and people get hurt or killed. Some dickhead flying like a maniac and trying to "thread the needle" in the pattern is not even close to being in that category--at least not in my world.

Walt

Not just drunk drivers if i tear down the street run a stop sign and turn into traffic will that be called an accident? I think not.

There are very sensible swoopers out there and there are people like danny. Swooping is noway a crime. I like to do it among 100's of other people i guess. What is a crime is killing innocent people that abide by all the rules just to be taken out by an idiot. Well said walt

what about a wife who rams a car intentionally?

[skinnyshrek 0]

or a dj on a microphone brandy will kick your ass

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[marks 0]

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or a dj on a microphone brandy will kick your ass

I say that, it makes me fair game I guess..

good show!

[oosskis 0]

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From where I sit here on the other side of the world, there seems to be a very vocal group of older jumpers looking to tar all swoopers with the same brush. People like Ian Drennan and marks have tried to say "Hey, there's two types of swoopers: those that are safety conscious, compete, coach, and generally provide a good example, and the fuck-yeah-I-can-swoop-the-beerline-on-every-load guys."

The first type of swooper is trying to say two things to you: 1. It's not the act of swooping that's the problem. It's the "I can do what the fuck I want" attitude that's the problem. 2. Not all of these accidents have involved swoopers. Let's find the underlying cause and fix that, rather than blaming the symptom.

Amen to that!

"Bodygolfing" isn't as much fun as it sounds. People get pissed when you don't replace your divets.

[klingeme 0]

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Klingeme: do you acknowledge that the risks you list are not at the same level of magnitude?

I realize this however, every time you get in the plane, there are several things out of your control that can kill you. The only way to stay "safe" is to stay on the ground.

[billvon 2,406]

>I realize this however, every time you get in the plane, there are
>several things out of your control that can kill you. The only way to stay
>"safe" is to stay on the ground.

Agreed. However, if I get under you and open my parachute for shits and grins, is that excusable by saying "hey, the only way to stay safe is to stay on the ground?" I suspect that while you accept that YOU may die if you screw up, you'd be somewhat upset if someone eles tried to kill you.

[JumpRu 14]

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Agreed. However, if I get under you and open my parachute for shits and grins, is that excusable by saying "hey, the only way to stay safe is to stay on the ground?" I suspect that while you accept that YOU may die if you screw up, you'd be somewhat upset if someone eles tried to kill you.

bad example. Every single canopy collision we had was an accident. No one tried to kill anyone.

[billvon 2,406]

> Every single canopy collision we had was an accident. No one tried to kill anyone.

Right. And I'm not trying to kill you. I'm just opening my canopy under you to see you go screaming by my open canopy. I've seen it for real and it is pretty cool - you can hear the ssssSSSWOOOoooo as they go by. (Well, cool in a "glad I survived that" sense.)

But don't worry - I'll check my airspace to make sure I open five feet from you, not directly under you.

[JumpRu 14]

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Right. And I'm not trying to kill you. I'm just opening my canopy under you to see you go screaming by my open canopy. I've seen it for real and it is pretty cool - you can hear the ssssSSSWOOOoooo as they go by. (Well, cool in a "glad I survived that" sense.)

But don't worry - I'll check my airspace to make sure I open five feet from you, not directly under you.

and i won't rat you out to authorities, instead we will have a long and unpleasant conversation about proper separation. We will make sure that it won’t happen again. And then we go to next load. That is how it should to be. We don’t need “Big Brother” to solve our problems.

I will do this because we both jumpers and we SHARE the sky. By the way in my 2200 jumps this situation happened more then once and I personally almost never had problems with other jumpers. We should trust each other and work together to make our jumps safer and still have fun. In worst possible situation (when other jumper told me to fuck off) I just made a mental note to myself and since then never jump with the guy.

[billvon 2,406]

>instead we will have a long and unpleasant conversation about proper
>separation. We will make sure that it won’t happen again.

Naah, you're not a close puller, so you don't understand my skills. After all, when's the last time YOU pulled almost under someone? If you don't have the skills, you shouldn't lecture other people over something you know nothing about.

But it's all cool. I'll be sure to check my airspace and make sure I don't hit you. It's no big deal, dude! Chill out.

[mnealtx 0]

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We don’t need “Big Brother” to solve our problems.

Maybe you need to go back and read the thead about Danny and Bob, and how people DID talk to Danny and it made no difference...then come back and tell me that talking is still the only answer.

Or go read the "backflying with tandems" thread and see where it took the threat of consequences from the tandem manufacturer to straighten the situation out.

Talk all you want...until there's some teeth behind the talk, there's always someone that will blow it off.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JumpRu 14]

sorry i edit my post later. you right that happened to me too,, some people just don't listen, one AFF instructor went with student after our 4way with 0 separation and we saw him in freefall like 20 ft away after we opened up, he went right by us. :) Well we still good friends but i pull lower then he is behind :)