Countries with "liberal" cloud clearance rules

[Jonsmann 0]

The Danish cloud clearance rules (similar to the US rules) are driving me crazy! There are just too few days where it is possible to jump.
So I am curious about the specific rules in the countries where the rules are less strict. I have heard about more liberal rules in Australia and Ireland. Can someone summarise these rules and maybe even provide a link to an official site?

Thanks

Jacques

[sundevil777 93]

Rules are one thing, what actually happens at a DZ are another.

Punching clouds and passing very close by to them does happen at some DZs in the US. It is one of those things that enemies of a DZ can use against them - reporting it to the authorities. It involves more risk, but it sure is fun.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[d123 1]

What's the problem with punching clouds if you are allowed to jump?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[billvon 2,400]

> What's the problem with punching clouds if you are allowed to jump?

You can't see 2000 foot mountains, other aircraft, other skydivers, high canopies etc. In addition, if you don't have good visual references, your spot may be off significantly. (GPSes sometimes fail.) Would suck to open up two miles offshore over Lake Erie for example.

[d123 1]

Quote

> What's the problem with punching clouds if you are allowed to jump?

You can't see 2000 foot mountains, other aircraft, other skydivers, high canopies etc. In addition, if you don't have good visual references, your spot may be off significantly. (GPSes sometimes fail.) Would suck to open up two miles offshore over Lake Erie for example.

I do agree with you on all that you said but all those things will prevent you from jumping in the 1st place.

If you are allowed to jump and there's 1 or 2 small cumulus clouds at 6k it shouldn't be a problem if you track towards one of them and punch through. I mean as long as you track perpendicular to the plane direction it should be ok.

Does it makes any sense what I'm saying or I'm missing something?

I've already did it twice and for me was straight up fun.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Andy_Copland 0]

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[rhys 0]

I am not saying this should be done or anything but as long as you have a visual reference what is the problem?

Canopy collisions etc. can be avoided by using adequate separation, collision with other aircraft can be avoided by the control tower.....

In queenstown we used to jump(and they still do) with a solid layer of cloud if it is not too wet or thick. we did have visual references though as the surrounding mountains are up to 6000' above ground level. these are only a few miles from the dropzone and 80% of the staff have 1000's of jumps at the dropzone.

in Christchurch there is no mountains so they were allowed to jump in solid cloud if they had a wrist mounted GPS unit on each jumper. but that DZ has moved to the mountains also now.

I am talking about tandem factories in New Zealand not your average sport skydivers dropzone. Using such techniques for sport skydivers would be too much of a risk.

I'm not saying what is done there is safe either but it 'is' how it is.

Small scattered cumulus pose very little risk and not being able to jump when there is consistently less than 2/8's of cloud and only about 500 ft thick is pure bullshit. If you can see the spot and will not have to enter cloud then it will be O.K.

I pity those that cannot do cloud kick on their canopies, carving around a TQ is possibly one of my favorite things in skydiving.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[dragon2 0]

Well over here the clouds can hide other planes, and especially gliders as they like to hang out directly underneath the clouds! So not going through clouds makes a lot of sense here!
There have been deadly accidents already of skydivers hitting gliders, although not at our DZ.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[pinkfairy 0]

Do you have a link to these rules so I can read them?

Or can you describe them?

At my home DZ, the pilots spot using GPS, and often, all we see is white when we go out. There are of course some cloud altitudes that are more problematic than others, that mean that we don't jump, but if we weren't to jump when there are clouds, then we'd never get to jump in our climate.

I'm curious about the danish rules, I hear that all jumping stops at US DZs when there is one cloud in the sky, and that's probably OK if you're in, say, Arizona, where there aren't many clouds.

I'm sure this depends on other air traffic, and other factors too. Where I jump, there's only forest, an airstrip with a jump plane and nothing else. It would probably be a lot more complicated with a lot of other air traffic or jump planes.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[Jonsmann 0]

I am actually looking for the rules in other countries, that is why I ask!

I wouldn't be surprised if the Danish and Norwegian rules are very similar, the weather definitely is!
One thing is the rules another is what is actually done! The only problem is that jumping in 100% cloud cover will at some time give you problems with a new S&TA or the authorities.

It is not good when the official rules differ too much from what is actually done. I would very much like the Danish rules changed, but it will be so much easier to do that if you can refer to rules in other countries which are less strict.

Jacques

[pinkfairy 0]

I'll see if I can find them.

But they do things differently at different DZs here too. At some places, they need to do spotting without GPS, the plane might have it, but they still need to look out, and then they can't jump from full altitude if the cloud layer is 100%. At other places, there are high mountains, air traffic etc. My home DZ is quite exceptional with no air traffic, and quite flat terrain. If the GPS should for some reason fail, we'd have a problem, of course.

Instead of wishing the rules were different in Denmark, you could go to Østre Æra to jump?

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

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> What's the problem with punching clouds if you are allowed to jump?

You can't see 2000 foot mountains, other aircraft, other skydivers, high canopies etc. In addition, if you don't have good visual references, your spot may be off significantly. (GPSes sometimes fail.) Would suck to open up two miles offshore over Lake Erie for example.

I do agree with you on all that you said but all those things will prevent you from jumping in the 1st place.

If you are allowed to jump and there's 1 or 2 small cumulus clouds at 6k it shouldn't be a problem if you track towards one of them and punch through. I mean as long as you track perpendicular to the plane direction it should be ok.

Does it makes any sense what I'm saying or I'm missing something?

I've already did it twice and for me was straight up fun.

You're missing something. What if there is a Cessna on the other side of that cloud you just punched through. Not all pilots pay attention to, or read the NOTAMS in place at an operating DZ.

Do a search about aircraft in the vicinity of freefall (youtube, etc) and also look at Skydive Elsinore's web-site. There's a video that Pat Newman took that shows a freaking DC9 (or similar sized commercial jet) flying right through the airspace (and no, that wasn't Perris' jet either... ). That was on a clear day.

There are also other jumpers too. Do you always track perpendicular to the line of flight? Are you always able to (depending on the size of your jump group)?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Zep 0]

Clouds or no clouds, NEVER track up or down the jump run.

Gone fishing

[d123 1]

Point taken!

Regarding Cessna, well it depends on the case(like are you jumping alone, did you watch the cloud in freefall for 12-15 sec before you punch, how wide is the cloud, etc) but I think that a Cessna or another plane, usually might be easier to spot because they don't stay hidden for a long time. You can see them before being shadowed by the cloud and change your plans.

But a sailplane or a paraglider that's riding the thermal under the cumulus cloud it will be hidden almost 100%. And it's not unusual for sailplanes to do cross country rides and use any thermal that they can get. Good point.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Tonto 1]

We have no rules about cloud in SA.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[koppel 3]

look here for information on the Australian Cloud Jumping Procedres

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Point taken!

Regarding Cessna, well it depends on the case(like are you jumping alone, did you watch the cloud in freefall for 12-15 sec before you punch, how wide is the cloud, etc) but I think that a Cessna or another plane, usually might be easier to spot because they don't stay hidden for a long time. You can see them before being shadowed by the cloud and change your plans.

But a sailplane or a paraglider that's riding the thermal under the cumulus cloud it will be hidden almost 100%. And it's not unusual for sailplanes to do cross country rides and use any thermal that they can get. Good point.

The real boogey here is that you don't know how big the cloud really is. Despite how clearly you see them, from above, or from the side, or below, you don't know what's on the other side. While the accidental punch through haze can be a thrill, getting comfortable with it mean getting complacent. ...and complacency in this sport...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Zenister 0]

Quote

There are also other jumpers too. Do you always track perpendicular to the line of flight? Are you always able to (depending on the size of your jump group)?

without references you'd be suprised how much you can inadvertantly 'travel' Skydivers make many continous adjustments to stay 'down the tube' alot of them are semi concious once youve been jumping a while.. without ANY reference you could be seriously backsliding (for example) and be largely unaware of how much ground youve covered..

that could result in you accidently 'joining someone elses dive' without anyone being aware/happy about it..

there are a few good videos on skydivingmovies.com where the whole group goes in and when they clear the coulds........ everyone is suddenly very far from where they were relatively without anyone 'intending' to change anything about their position.... (you wouldnt want to make any drastic transitions intentionally when you've no idea where the rest of your dive is)

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[sundevil777 93]

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Clouds or no clouds, NEVER track up or down the jump run.

Do you really mean that for a largish RW load?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Zep 0]

Quote

Quote

Clouds or no clouds, NEVER track up or down the jump run.

Do you really mean that for a largish RW load?

No, On a largish RW load obviously they will track in all directions.

My answer was directed at D123 who has low jump numbers,

Gone fishing

[ps5601 0]

UK cloud rules are that you must be able to see you planned opening and planned landing point from the exit point. As such it is possible to go through some cloud, and it is very possible to be jumping through holes in clouds. Jump pilots (assuming they are instrument rated) are also allowed to climb and descend through cloud.

We are not supposed to jump through solid cloud, although I have attended competitions where the exit altitude was raised so that 35 seconds would be up before hitting the cloud!!

As I understand it (and I'm sure a friendly Yank will correct me) there are 2 main reasons for the strict cloud rules in the US. The first is that the US operates primarily under a "big sky" theory (ie there is so much sky and so few objects in it, that you should be able to avoid each other), which allows for vast amounts of unrestricted airspace with no flight plans, but only works if you are able to see most of the sky (although given potential closing speed of objects/aircraft with no radar and locators can be thought of as a pretty naive theory at best).

The other reason is that skydiving in the US is conducted under VFR (Visual flying restrictions) which states that all pilots (including the jumpers) must be able to see a certain distance in all directions - I think about 2 miles for the entire flight. So you CAN jump through holes in clouds - they just need to be mighty big ones!

Finally pilots, jumpers and DZs allowing jumpers to go through cloud may receive heavy fines from the FAA for violating the rules. Pilots may also have their licence pulled by the FAA for violations.

Blue skies

Paul

[billvon 2,400]

>Canopy collisions etc. can be avoided by using adequate separation,

Not if you can't see the other jumper. I've punched clouds where the cameraman lost sight of the formation and the jumpers on one side of the formation couldn't see the other side. That's too little visibility to avoid collisions.

>collision with other aircraft can be avoided by the control tower.....

. . . if all aircraft are under positive control. In many places (like the US) they are not.

>If you can see the spot and will not have to enter cloud then it will be O.K.

And you can clear the airspace. Generally that means if there are some small puffies and you have time to clear the air near them, OK. If not, you might be at risk for a collision with another aircraft.

[tombuch 0]

See Article 19 "Jumping Near Clouds" on The Ranch web site at: http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. It's an article I wrote about a year or two ago outlining why cloud jumps are a problem in the United States.

The key thing to keep in mind is that the airspace belongs to the public, and it is our obligation to "see and avoid" other traffic. That isn't possible if clouds obstruct the ground.

As a quick example, lets assume there is a cloud layer at 6,000 feet with a hole two miles wide (that's 10,560 feet). It is certainly possible to maintain minimum cloud clearance requirements by jumping through the center of the hole. In fact, we need just 2,000 feet of horizontal distance at that altitude (in most US domestic airspace).

Now lets think of a small airplane traveling at 120 mph at 2,000 feet. That airplane will cover two miles every minute. Let's assume we clear the airspace within the hole, and then immediately jump, with a parachute opening at 4,000 feet. We will spend approximately one minute in freefall, and then two minutes under canopy before reaching 2,000 feet. The small airplane could have easily been six miles away and blocked by the cloud layer when we jumped. The jump would have been legal under the minimum distance requirement, but would have created a hazard, and might be considered a violation for that reason.

For a discussion of where traffic might be, and where we need to look to clear our airspace, see Article 1, "Checking For Traffic" at the above mentioned web site. If you are interested in the FAA regulations in the United States, take a look at Article 13 "FAA Regulations Applied."

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[freeatlast 0]

We jumped several wingsuit loads at the pre-cochstedt boogie through what i initially mistook for cloud, however, after consulting with my belgium and dutch friends it appears i mistook "industrial haze" for "clouds"