Cessna Caravan

[Unstable 8]

The numbers I keep running tell me that in a few years, the Cessna Caravan will be one of the most economical jumpships out there on the market. Relativly new, (Production started in mid-80's) right now Cessna is producing one roughly every 18 working hours minus parts shortages (I know because I am posting this directly above the main production line)

What limitations does the Cessna Caravan have when compared to an Otter, the standard jumpship?

How many caravans are in the Skydiving fleet today?

What do DZO's have to say about their operational costs?

=========Shaun ==========

[BillyVance 34]

I'm just a jumper, but I'd still prefer the Otter over a Caravan. Roomier, plus if one engine conks out in flight, it still has the other one to buy us more time to get out if we're high enough.

The Caravan may be easier to maintain though... I dunno.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Unstable 8]

I'm just seeing a lot of advantages

- Single Engine, only a fraction of the Maintenence

- Nearly the same lift capacity for the 208B model

-Production Aircraft - PLENTY of parts available


If not the Caravan - I just wonder if the next generation of new or Used jump planes will have to be singles.

=========Shaun ==========

[jakee 1,257]

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- Nearly the same lift capacity for the 208B model

Really? We never take more than 16 in ours, I thought TOs could take over 20?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Unstable 8]

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Really? We never take more than 16 in ours, I thought TOs could take over 20?

It's a rough generalization. I've seen the Super CargoMasters (No windows, stretched 4'), claim to carry up to 20 jumpers, but mostly 14-16 is norm. So my point is economically, you add 4 jumers, and pay for an entirly extra engine + fuel + maintenence + insurance.

What does your DZO say about his Caravan?

=========Shaun ==========

[pilotdave 0]

Our DZ's been using a 208B with seatbelts for 21. We limit to 17 due to a short runway. Climbs slow enough with 17 and it's tight enough... wouldn't want to find out what it's like with 21 on board.

We had a super otter before the caravan. One difference is that we have a mandatory 20 minute cool down after every shutdown with the caravan. Super otter could start right back up. Since we aren't allowed to hot fuel, the cool down time can make a big difference to us on busy days.

Dave

[Unstable 8]

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Our DZ's been using a 208B with seatbelts for 21. We limit to 17 due to a short runway. Climbs slow enough with 17 and it's tight enough... wouldn't want to find out what it's like with 21 on board.

We had a super otter before the caravan. One difference is that we have a mandatory 20 minute cool down after every shutdown with the caravan. Super otter could start right back up. Since we aren't allowed to hot fuel, the cool down time can make a big difference to us on busy days.

What? I've never heard that before? What engines do you Have? Do any other DZ's do this?

=========Shaun ==========

[BillyVance 34]

You can't hot-start a King Air either IIRC.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The DZ in Pitt Meadows drastically reduces the cool down on its King air (PT6-20s) by cycling the engine without fuel using an external power source.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I've been in a caravan that has had the spinny thing in the front stop spinning. It get's really quiet in there, but it does glide well. AS far as single engine climb out capability on the otter that depends on the weight of the aircraft, fuel, and load onboard.

[riggerrob 558]

What limitations does the Cessna Caravan have when compared to an Otter, the standard jumpship?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Caravans only carry 12 to 18 skydivers compared with 20 to 24 in a Twin Otter.
Whether that is an advantage or disadvantage depends upon how busy your DZ is.

At a slow DZ, most tandem instructors prefer smaller airplanes, because they fly more loads per day, enabling them to get on more loads, earn more money, etc.

In another example, our DZ currently operates a 14 seat King Air. Our DZO freely admits that a 10-seater would be better, because he would not have to wait as long for people to pack - to fill loads - and he could operate gracefully with fewer TIs .
Hint: he is ALWAYS short of TIs.
The down side of a smaller airplane is that EVERY turbine-engined airplane has a higher initial purchase price than a Kng Air.

[dragon2 0]

No Otters here in The Netherlands. Here, the Caravan is now more or less the standard airplane, on the bigger DZs.

We have models taking from 16 to 20 jumpers, ours takes 16-18 depending on fuel.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[diablopilot 2]

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Our DZ's been using a 208B with seatbelts for 21. We limit to 17 due to a short runway. Climbs slow enough with 17 and it's tight enough... wouldn't want to find out what it's like with 21 on board.

We had a super otter before the caravan. One difference is that we have a mandatory 20 minute cool down after every shutdown with the caravan. Super otter could start right back up. Since we aren't allowed to hot fuel, the cool down time can make a big difference to us on busy days.

Dave

For what reason? Is the aircraft owned by someone else that insists on the shut down time? Do you use an APU for starts?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm just a jumper, but I'd still prefer the Otter over a Caravan. Roomier, plus if one engine conks out in flight, it still has the other one to buy us more time to get out if we're high enough.

The Caravan may be easier to maintain though... I dunno.

The second engine will somtimes only serve to get you to the scene of the crash sooner. Read about the Perris Crash and the MO crash.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Unstable 8]

the big limiting factor I see right now is the initial purchase price - the Caravan is a newer aircraft, and so even the used ones are pricy. I am just hypothesising that since Cessna Is pumping 208's and 208B's out so fast, in a number of years, the used models will go for less and become more available to the Skydiving market...

Hmmm, maybe in 10 years the Arizona fleet will consist of Caravan's and not Otters?

=========Shaun ==========

[PhreeZone 15]

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Hmmm, maybe in 10 years the Arizona fleet will consist of Caravan's and not Otters?

You probally won't see that until the day that the 4 and 8 way teams chose to allow one to used for Nationals. There was rumors that Nationals could have been held on tailgates years ago at Lake Wales and just about every team out there complained about that possibility. There is some differnece in door size, bar position and even prop blast between an Otter and the Caravan.

Until an operator can get enough Caravans together to be able to hold Nationals with the 4/8 way events, the Nationals will probally still be held out of Otters. The sitution with holding Nationals out of a Caravan is also you can only get 3 4-way teams into the Caravan vs 4 with the Otter. That means for every 3 Otter loads you'd have to fly 4 Caravan loads to keep pace. At roughly 50 teams for 4 way they needed to fly 125 loads to complete all 10 rounds. Same event in the Caravan would be pushing 160 loads. Depending on the plane it would be pushing it to send up 2 8-way teams on the same Caracan so now you are looking at needing to fly twice as many loads unless you had seatbelts and room for 18+ in the plane.

With the Otter hitting production again parts should come online in a few years again and hopfully extend the life of the fleet by another 15-25 years.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Unstable 8]

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With the Otter hitting production again parts should come online in a few years again and hopfully extend the life of the fleet by another 15-25 years.

I guess my main concern will be; In that time, who of the operators would prefer a single engine for the economics of it versus paid more than double the costs for a twin....

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There was rumors that Nationals could have been held on tailgates years ago at Lake Wales and just about every team out there complained about that possibility.

Bitch bitch bitch whine whine whine.... They are the best of the best, they should shut up and jump...

=========Shaun ==========

[pilotdave 0]

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For what reason? Is the aircraft owned by someone else that insists on the shut down time? Do you use an APU for starts?

Don't know. I assume it's in the flight manual, but I've never checked. But yes, either way, the plane is owned by someone else that insists on it anyway. And we can't hot fuel because it requires approval by the town fire marshall, who happens to hate us. We use a battery cart for starts.

Dave

[Unstable 8]

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And we can't hot fuel because it requires approval by the town fire marshall,

AHHHH, that explains it....

=========Shaun ==========

[DSE 3]

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The DZ in Pitt Meadows drastically reduces the cool down on its King air (PT6-20s) by cycling the engine without fuel using an external power source.

This is how we do ours as well.

[BillyVance 34]

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I'm just a jumper, but I'd still prefer the Otter over a Caravan. Roomier, plus if one engine conks out in flight, it still has the other one to buy us more time to get out if we're high enough.

The Caravan may be easier to maintain though... I dunno.

The second engine will somtimes only serve to get you to the scene of the crash sooner. Read about the Perris Crash and the MO crash.

They both crashed on take off. Nothing anybody could do about those.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I'm just a jumper, but I'd still prefer the Otter over a Caravan. Roomier, plus if one engine conks out in flight, it still has the other one to buy us more time to get out if we're high enough.

The Caravan may be easier to maintain though... I dunno.

The second engine will somtimes only serve to get you to the scene of the crash sooner. Read about the Perris Crash and the MO crash.

They both crashed on take off. Nothing anybody could do about those.

The NTSB does not seem to have released a final report from the Sullivan crash.

While contaminated fuel leading to a right engine failure was the root cause of the Perris crash, the NTSB report indicated that the left prop was feathered and that the pilot may have shutdown the remaining engine. That would have been avoidable.

In general pilots can maintain proper weight and balance, follow the FARs which require a rotation speed greater than 1.05 Vmc and 1.10 Vs1 and 1.10 VMc/1.20Vs1 (unless the aircraft has higher speed requirements) by 50' AGL, train for the situation in simulators, and handle emergency procedures properly just like skydivers.

[lekstrom10k 0]

We had Otters for years at Napoleon the one thing nobody mentioned was minimum jumpers. A plane with 20+ capacity is useless if you can only find 12 for the first load. We had the chair magnet and porch monkey AFF staff that told newbies never go on the first load.So they sat we would manifest load 2 and they would get on it. They would ask in the air where load 1 landed. We would then tell them this is it . Holey terror in their eyes until they landed no problem in spite of their training. OneAFFI actually told one "Track for the airport no matter what at breakoff". The GC-208 we have is great for that alone. Mikey is doing a great job flying but no way in hell is he going to hear it from me The only thing we have as any sort of problem is the finicky voltage and APU-GPU what ever way you want to call it.It is also listed for 21 but again not at our airport.

[Unstable 8]

That would be another big advantage I can see - It will breakeven and be able to take off with a lower minimum jumpers on board - This would make a big difference for small Dropzones trying to fire up at 7:30 Saturday morning, but for a big DZ wouldn't matter much at all.
IMHO, a lot of jumpers look at size, speed, and lift capacity in aircraft. So, according to Utility Aircraft, an Otter turns 3.25 Loads per hour at 20 jumpers while a standard 208-675 carries 145 jumpers, at 2.75 loads per hour. Seems ideal for TM's and smaller dropzones with limited Tandem staff.

One things I think we need to consider (and usually don't) is the efficiency of Manifest. Loads Meet the plane at the end of the runway - there is a pit-crew to assist in a speedy fuel stop, and the entire vibe of the Dropzone is one to stop yakkin' and get in the air. I think a Caravan, if run Really efficiently and manifested well, would support a dropzone which would normally think they are ready for something bigger...

Agree? Disagree?

=========Shaun ==========

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm just a jumper, but I'd still prefer the Otter over a Caravan. Roomier, plus if one engine conks out in flight, it still has the other one to buy us more time to get out if we're high enough.

The Caravan may be easier to maintain though... I dunno.

The second engine will somtimes only serve to get you to the scene of the crash sooner. Read about the Perris Crash and the MO crash.

They both crashed on take off. Nothing anybody could do about those.

Not really true. If improperly managed, the good engine of a twin engine aircraft suffering from a single engine failure, can contribute quite significantly to the degradation of the aircraft's flight.

The fact that both incidents happened near take off doesn't mean they were or were not recoverable/survivable. What's so different about take off?

The workload on a pilot of a twin when presented with a single engine out is much higher than the same pilot in a single with an engine out. There are many more split second decisions/reactions that must happen for the aircraft to be kept under control and landed safely whether on the runway or off field. Things like what power and torque setting, which way the aircraft can safely turn, what rudder pedal needs to be used. Airline pilots have to train these scenarios over and over and over in simulators, skydiving pilots rarely have such a luxury.

I would much rather be in an emergency in a single, vs. a twin knowing that many of the pilots in this industry are low time with no sim training.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.