Staying Current Vs. Years In Sport

[tonka 2]

Hello all,

I have heard this argument many times and want to see what the dropzone.com community has to say.



Does staying current or having more years in the sport make someone a better flyer and more aware skydiver?
(More jumps in a shorter time period or having more time to think about and analyze ones jumps?)

Example- One Year in sport with 200 jumps vs. five years in sport with 300 jumps.

I personally think staying current is the way to become a better flyer but many people have told me that more time in the sport helps you skydive better.
Since I only have a year in the sport it would be nice to hear what people with many years of jumping have to say about this.

Don't overthink this concept and come up with a million what is scenarios. (Unless you just cant help not coming up with your own crazy twist on the question) Anyways thats the poll and im gonna go pack some rigs because im poor.

Thanks!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I met a guy several years ago who did 1000 jumps his first year in the sport. He was a kick-ass sit flier (sit flying was just in its infancy) and was flying his canopy hard too. The problem was that while he had taught himself to be quite skilled under canopy, he hadn't learned much from the mistakes of others because he hadn't learned much about what had happened in the past.
He had two serious landing accidents in short succession (after taking time out to heal from the first one) and had to retire from the sport. maybe he would have still gotten hurt if he had spent a couple of years around the fire prior to becoming a hot canopy pilot, but he has always been emblematic of the pitfalls of lots of jumps but not a lot of time in the sport. This is why Strong and UPT have minimum time in the sport requirements for the tandem rating.
As for the 15 year 500 jump guy; The fact that they are over thirty slows them down a bit but they are just as dangerous.

[squirrel 0]

i have been in the sport for about 5 years, and have around 300 jumps. so i guess i fall into the "staying current" crowd. however, in those five years, i have jumped at roughly 30 DZs or so, many differnt planes, weather conditions, landing altitudes, and with many of the 5000+ jump DZOs, and other up jumpers. its what i have learn from all of this, combined, that makes me feel confident in my abilities. i feel that jumping at just one DZ is great, but you better be heads up if you go somewhere else...many things change at different locations.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

You need both. It takes a longer than a year to become aware of our mortality and failability as humans and adopt the necessary attitude.

My freeflying and canopy piloting skills definately suffer after a layoff.

[tonka 2]

I have only jumped at one DZ.

I agree that jumping at different locations helps you be prepared for more situations and able to handle them better.
Thats why I am planning to actually have my gear and logbook next time I am near anotherer dz.

[squirrel 0]

i nver travel without them..

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[jimmytavino 16]

it takes a good bit of BOTH...
"years in the sport" should better read as "years spent ON the DZ" soaking up knowledge.......

Simple Time in the sport is not as effective if that time is not spent AT the dz... watching, listening, asking questions, and growing knowledge.....

We can learn lots around the campfire.... ( no, not THAT sort of knowledge) but before it gets tooo far past "Beer thirty" we CAN listen and hear about technical things, and different procedures and new techniques....
so years in the sport helps.... IF we use those years wisely..
Staying current. to me means "making lots of jumps"... and THAT is where we implement what we have learned.... so currency gives us true feedback, and helps us differentiate from 'good' advice and 'bad' advice...
check with instructors, and senior jumpers to be sure about any new and different advice..

so sure... BOTH is best...

[davelepka 4]

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"years in the sport" should better read as "years spent ON the DZ" soaking up knowledge.......

On that subject, has anyone else noticed that many new jumpers spend their time on the DZ not paying attention to anything related to skydiving?

These are the same people who can barely pack their own rigs, and couldn't possibly hook up a three-ring release.

Time in the sport or time on the DZ does not always equal what you would hope.

[Tonto 1]

I'm in for 22 years with 5300 dives... so... 240 dives a year. I jump weekends only, so that's just about every weekend for 22 years, with the skipped weekends being weather or plane related. 3500 of my dives are from cessnas. I last skipped a calendar month in 1998, and the time before that was 1987.

I averaged around 200 a year for the 1st 18 years, then moved up to 300+ a year since about 5 years ago. I'm pretty current now with 300 for the year so far and summer just starting.
I think jumping makes you better at jumping. (Skill)

I think DZ time gives you better experience. (Judgement)

I think 5000 dives jumping different aircraft, at different DZ's and doing different tasks makes you more experienced than someone with 5000 dives out of the same plane, with the same team and the same DZ.

When it comes to saving your ass, if you have the great judgement, you probably don't need the great skill.

Bottom line is we should be doing what we love, and staying within our limitations regardless of our skill/experience level.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Airman1270 0]

Currency is overrated.

Of course, people who jump sporadically take much longer to learn their skills than do those who jump often, but they DO learn.

When I moved to Georgia in 1991 I had 200 jumps in nine years and could barely fly. This did NOT mean that I was not safe. It meant that my skills had not developed to the same point as the guy who made 200 jumps in his first year. I always jumped within my limits and never inserted myself into situations I wasn't ready for. Therefore, even though I wasn't as current as the next guy, I never posed a threat to anyone's safety.

It took a long time to be able to fly with competence and confidence, but I eventually got there. I may not fly as well as the guy who made 1000 jumps in the past two years, but I dare say I know more about the sport and have a much more solid foundation of knowledge and respect for the sky than does the newcomer whose only advantage over me is his ability to write checks to the DZ.

Back in August I did a nice three-way with two reletively low-timers. One had a little over 250 jumps, the other didn't have that many, but they both have only been doing this for a few years. We all flew very well. It was my first jump in a month and about my 11th this year. According to the hysterical hand-wringing of the currency nazies, I should have killed us all. But we were quite compatible.

The guy who plays guitar an hour a week will take longer to learn "Stairway to Heaven" than the guy who plays two hours a day, but once he learns it the listener will not know or care how much longer it took him. (Either way, the listener will be sick of hearing it.)

Several weeks ago I celebrated my 25th year in the sport by jumping a Para-Commander. Jump #840. Blew the spot, tracked toward the wind line for 15 seconds, opened, crabbed over the trees and held for the final 2000'. Didn't land on the target, but I did land in an open field on the DZ. How many 1000+ jump wonders with fewer than five years in the sport could do this?

Cheers,
Jon S.

[klingeme 0]

I was a much better flyer 5 years ago when I was doing 300+ jumps a year than I currently am.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[Jazzthieve 0]

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Currency is overrated.

Of course, people who jump sporadically take much longer to learn their skills than do those who jump often, but they DO learn.

When I moved to Georgia in 1991 I had 200 jumps in nine years and could barely fly. This did NOT mean that I was not safe. It meant that my skills had not developed to the same point as the guy who made 200 jumps in his first year. I always jumped within my limits and never inserted myself into situations I wasn't ready for. Therefore, even though I wasn't as current as the next guy, I never posed a threat to anyone's safety.

It took a long time to be able to fly with competence and confidence, but I eventually got there. I may not fly as well as the guy who made 1000 jumps in the past two years, but I dare say I know more about the sport and have a much more solid foundation of knowledge and respect for the sky than does the newcomer whose only advantage over me is his ability to write checks to the DZ.

Back in August I did a nice three-way with two reletively low-timers. One had a little over 250 jumps, the other didn't have that many, but they both have only been doing this for a few years. We all flew very well. It was my first jump in a month and about my 11th this year. According to the hysterical hand-wringing of the currency nazies, I should have killed us all. But we were quite compatible.

The guy who plays guitar an hour a week will take longer to learn "Stairway to Heaven" than the guy who plays two hours a day, but once he learns it the listener will not know or care how much longer it took him. (Either way, the listener will be sick of hearing it.)

Several weeks ago I celebrated my 25th year in the sport by jumping a Para-Commander. Jump #840. Blew the spot, tracked toward the wind line for 15 seconds, opened, crabbed over the trees and held for the final 2000'. Didn't land on the target, but I did land in an open field on the DZ. How many 1000+ jump wonders with fewer than five years in the sport could do this?

Cheers,
Jon S.

You sound like you wished you had done more jumps.

[billvon 2,400]

>but I dare say I know more about the sport and have a much more
>solid foundation of knowledge and respect for the sky than does the
>newcomer whose only advantage over me is his ability to write checks to
>the DZ.

No doubt true. The ideal is someone with your time in the sport AND the currency to be able to fly with competence and confidence. Both are important.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I personally think staying current is the way to become a better flyer but many people have told me that more time in the sport helps you skydive better.
Since I only have a year in the sport it would be nice to hear what people with many years of jumping have to say about this.

Neither time nor currency makes you a better skydiver, however both are required in order to become a better skydiver.

Example: I know several people who all have been jumping for 20+ years, all have 1000+ jumps, and all jump almost every week. Amazingly, those same people are lucky if they can get past the 2nd point of a 4-way. (I'm not kidding).

I know others in their 1st year, with less than 100 jumps, who are better fliers.

What makes you a better skydiver is always working on being a better skydiver... ask questions, listen to experienced jumpers, observe those around you, watch a lot of video, listen to all sides of arguments.

Plan your dives, try to challenge yourself on every skydive, fly aggressively (not to be confused with stupidly), get out of your comfort zone (again, with saftey in mind), get in different slots, learn new exits... the list goes on.

If you do all that stuff, you'll become a better skydiver. The faster you rack up dives, the faster it will happen, and the longer you keep at it, the better you'll get.

P.S. If you truly want to get good, find like-minded people and form/join a team. For good RW skills, there is simply NO substitute for 4-way... same goes for VRW/3-way for freeflying, ect.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[tonka 2]

Good advice.
Thats pretty much what ive been doing-challenging myslef and trying all aspects of skydiving. I dont want to be the guy who can only freefly and swoop but cant do RW or CRW or fly a wingsuit.
I also grew up on DZ's so I had a little head start on someone completly new to the sport. I have always and watched, listened, and learned before I could jump and now apply that to my skydiving and continue to watch, listen, and learn.

Anyways skydiving kicks ass and I cant wait to get some ratings after I get my coach rating and get the required jump numbers. (Confident in my ability to get a coach rating but just havent applied myself on gettting the sheet filled out yet.) Ill save that for a weekend I dont have to shoot video on every load.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I also grew up on DZ's so I had a little head start on someone completly new to the sport. I have always and watched, listened, and learned before I could jump and now apply that to my skydiving and continue to watch, listen, and learn.

Me too... helps, doesn't it?

That should help a little with the knowledge base, and probably having seen a few people make big mistakes. Just remember that even with all the knowledge in the world, the experience part takes awhile... I've been guilty of thinking I'm pretty hot shit now and then, and it always ends in getting my ego knocked down.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Airman1270 0]

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Currency is overrated.

Of course, people who jump sporadically take much longer to learn their skills than do those who jump often, but they DO learn...


You sound like you wished you had done more jumps.
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Oh yes! From the beginning I wanted to be the guy who shows up every weekend, but life's circumstances have prevented me from being able to do that. The point is that people who don't jump often can still learn this stuff and do it safely, but it just takes longer to gain the skills than it otherwise would.

The biggest obstacle they face is the attitude among some highly experienced people who think that anyone who cannot make 200+ jumps per year is a threat to everyone's safety. This is pure bigotry and has no basis in reality. Unfortunately, these are the same people who end up in leadership positions within the sport and impose their narrow prejudices on the rest of us in the form of currency requirements, "coach" ratings, etc.

The biggest formation I've been on was a 20-way. I could do a 100-way today and do so safely. However, there are several reasons why I should not be on such a dive. I do not fly well enough to guarantee I'd be in my slot at the right time. It would be a big disappointment and a waste of everyone's time & money. For this reason I would not presume to join such an effort even if I was invited. But if I was on the dive I wouldn't hurt anybody.

Obviously, while my flying does not match the caliber of competition four way teams, there's nothing wrong with my judgement.

Cheers,
Jon

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[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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The biggest obstacle they face is the attitude among some highly experienced people who think that anyone who cannot make 200+ jumps per year is a threat to everyone's safety. This is pure bigotry and has no basis in reality.

I would argue it has some basis in reality but is exaggeraged by some who have a million and a half jumps. I've seen a couple people post claims like "the minimum currency requirement for safe freeflying is 300 jumps a year" (real post!) which is obviously a crock of shit. On the other hand, the guy with 500 jumps who's been jumping for 20 years (and has done 50 jumps in the last 10 years and none in the last 6 months) has no buisiness going to Rantoul and getting on a 12-way hybrid. and we've all seen people do stuff like that.

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I could do a 100-way today and do so safely. However, there are several reasons why I should not be on such a dive. I do not fly well enough to guarantee I'd be in my slot at the right time. It would be a big disappointment and a waste of everyone's time & money. For this reason I would not presume to join such an effort even if I was invited. But if I was on the dive I wouldn't hurt anybody.

I wish more people thought along those lines... I remember getting on a 60ish way at the eloy christmas boogie and seeing (literally) about 20 people go low. An individual whose skill aren't up to a 100-way isn't going to create an unsafe situation, but 30-40 individuals whose skills weren't up to a 60 way sure as hell did! I was glad to be in the outer ring so I could bail at 6000' and GET THE HELL OUT!

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[billvon 2,400]

>is the attitude among some highly experienced people who think
>that anyone who cannot make 200+ jumps per year is a threat to
>everyone's safety.

Someone who makes 10 jumps a year is arguably better than someone who has just gotten off AFF. The problem arises when they think they have a similar skill set to their friend who does 200 jumps a year, and wants to get on the same dives. These people ARE a threat to everyone's safety (at least everyone else on the dive!)

>This is pure bigotry and has no basis in reality.

It is unfortunately quite true; I have had to argue with such people on occasion.

>Obviously, while my flying does not match the caliber of competition four
>way teams, there's nothing wrong with my judgement.

Nor is there a problem with the judgment of a recent AFF grad, or someone who has been out of the sport for 10 years. But in all those cases, that does NOT equate to being at the same skill level - and being able to do the same things - as other jumpers who are more current/experienced.

If an uncurrent jumper uses his good judgment to stay off dives he is not ready for, all is well. If he uses his years in the sport as a tool to talk his way onto dives he is not safe on, then it _is_ a problem.

>The biggest formation I've been on was a 20-way. I could do a
>100-way today and do so safely.

This is a different topic, but doing 20-ways does not prepare you for a 100-way.

>But if I was on the dive I wouldn't hurt anybody.

I think that this is one of those cases where you don't even know what you don't know yet, and can't make such a call.

[dannydan 0]

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The biggest formation I've been on was a 20-way. I could do a 100-way today and do so safely. However, there are several reasons why I should not be on such a dive. I do not fly well enough to guarantee I'd be in my slot at the right time. It would be a big disappointment and a waste of everyone's time & money. For this reason I would not presume to join such an effort even if I was invited. But if I was on the dive I wouldn't hurt anybody

.............and it is basically this same thought for me as well! Just because I have been "AROUND" our sport for 10yrs, but with ONLY 78 jumps, keeps me away from even a 3way... I have plenty of confidence when I am solo, but I am not a crowdy type jumper yet... I am not even sure about bigways in the future.... Some of dz buddies dont understand this but thats ok! In due time I tell them! At 45 yoa I actually LOVE the learning more now than I did when I started... It must be an age thangy BSSL : DD

[Airman1270 0]

...>The biggest formation I've been on was a 20-way. I could do a
>100-way today and do so safely.

This is a different topic, but doing 20-ways does not prepare you for a 100-way.

>But if I was on the dive I wouldn't hurt anybody.

I think that this is one of those cases where you don't even know what you don't know yet, and can't make such a call...
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Um, if I were arguing that I WAS competent to be on a 100-way your response might be understandable. I'm well aware of the survival basics, which apply to any size formation. I would not aggressively fly toward my slot (in fact, I'd likely be timid and waste lots of time getting there.) I would not suddenly pull without notice or spend ANY time directly above anyone else. I would not dive blindly to the base.
I'd be so focused on keeping aware of my surroundings that I might not reach my slot at all. Many people would be pissed at me, but nobody gets hurt.

If you jumped with me and didn't know who I was you wouldn't think anything amiss about my flying.
You jump with many people whose abilities match mine. The only difference is that they haven't been doing this as long as I have.

Cheers,
Jon

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm well aware of the survival basics, which apply to any size formation.

The problem is the survival basics are quite different for a 100-way than for a 20-way. Team tracking doesn't matter much on a 20-way; on a 100-way it is critical. And that's not something you can learn doing 20-ways unless you're in a camp training to do just that.

This is a perfect example of why, sometimes, experience IS critical to be a safe jumper. I am sure you would do your best to be safe, and do the things you listed above. The things that would "get" you (i.e. the things that would increase the risk for others) are the things you didn't even consider, because the rules change beyond a certain size.

Please don't take this as a slam on your skills. I have no doubt that were you to do a bigway camp you'd pick them up quite quickly, and rapidly become a safe bigway jumper. But those skills would come because of the training you got and the experience you acquired by actually trying them, not because you have X years in the sport.

It's not just you, either. I've been in the sport 17 years and have done 400 ways, been an S+TA and instructor etc and I have had freefly training both in the tunnel and in the air - but I wouldn't be safe trying to do a headdown world record. There are things I just don't know yet, and things that I am not skilled enough to do on my head. To do such a record safely I'd need a lot more experience.

[airtwardo 6]

There are things I just don't know yet, and things that I am not skilled enough to do on my head. To do such a record safely I'd need a lot more experience.

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Very well put Bill, and I for one think that the honest self evaluation like that come from time in the sport.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[Airman1270 0]

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>I'm well aware of the survival basics, which apply to any size formation.

The problem is the survival basics are quite different for a 100-way than for a 20-way. Team tracking doesn't matter much on a 20-way; on a 100-way it is critical. And that's not something you can learn doing 20-ways unless you're in a camp training to do just that.

This is a perfect example of why, sometimes, experience IS critical to be a safe jumper. I am sure you would do your best to be safe, and do the things you listed above. The things that would "get" you (i.e. the things that would increase the risk for others) are the things you didn't even consider, because the rules change beyond a certain size.

Please don't take this as a slam on your skills. I have no doubt that were you to do a bigway camp you'd pick them up quite quickly, and rapidly become a safe bigway jumper. But those skills would come because of the training you got and the experience you acquired by actually trying them, not because you have X years in the sport.

It's not just you, either. I've been in the sport 17 years and have done 400 ways, been an S+TA and instructor etc and I have had freefly training both in the tunnel and in the air - but I wouldn't be safe trying to do a headdown world record. There are things I just don't know yet, and things that I am not skilled enough to do on my head. To do such a record safely I'd need a lot more experience.

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Right. Did I mention that I would NOT attempt
such a dive because I'm not currently qualified?

Jon