First Man Down

[damion75 0]

I have had a quick check on the forums and I know this subject has been brought up before, but I am curious about slightly different aspect of it.

My question is: How is it safer to allow the first man down for landing direction rather than use a fixed direction?

To qualify that, on a large landing area coming in directly into wind is obviously the ideal situation, so a big tetrahedron or arrow is a good marker to follow. Obviously on a small, narrow strip one needs to land either straight up or straight down it.

To use two examples: in Perris the direction is set by the first jumper, where in Skydive Algarve a fixed direction is set by using a fixed wooden marker. The fixed marker allows everyone to know in plenty of time to set up where they need to be, which is surely less likely to result in low turns and canopies coming in from both ends than the flexible first man down approach?

This is in my mind at the moment because I have just had the situation where at about 50-100ft I was the lowest jumper, set up to come in from one direction, at the other end of the strip at this DZ (maybe 400m away) another jumper on a creamy white pocket rocket hooked in from 500ft. I didn't see him against the cloud, but he was on the ground about 2 seconds before me. So who was right? I was the lowest canopy until it was too late to change, but he did get there first (and I did get it in the neck from the DZO!). I think that the system was really the fault here.

Thoughts please?

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[winsor 186]

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I have had a quick check on the forums and I know this subject has been brought up before, but I am curious about slightly different aspect of it.

My question is: How is it safer to allow the first man down for landing direction rather than use a fixed direction?



Thoughts please?

To answer your question, I don't think it is safer per se.

A couple of things come to mind that don't directly address the question.

For one thing, my tiny canopies are LOUD colors, that can be spotted in peripheral vision under lousy light conditions. Visibility can be a lifesaver.

For another thing, I HIGHLY recommend getting agreement on a landing direction before loading the aircraft. Asking "which way are we landing?" in a loud voice allows everyone to come to some kind of consensus, so someone intentionally doing a downwind to get an awesome surf (or whatever) won't hose the whole load. Thus, my response to which way is the correct way to land is that you should all land as agreed before the jump.

FWIW, when there is an incident, who is right is largely academic. The hot tip is to work out a means of avoiding traffic conflicts before they happen. Unlike Hollywood, in this sport there is such a thing as bad publicity. If you are going to show up in one of the publications, it should be for a milestone, rather than tombstone, event.

I'm glad it worked out that it was nothing more than a wake-up call.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[billvon 2,400]

>How is it safer to allow the first man down for landing direction
>rather than use a fixed direction?

The goal is to have everyone land in the same direction. First man down sets is one way to do it.

The problem with a fixed direction is that, if the fixed direction is downwind in a 10kt wind, some people will land downwind and some people will decide that's insane and land into the wind like they learned in their FJC. And you have the same problem.

>To qualify that, on a large landing area coming in directly into wind >is obviously the ideal situation, so a big tetrahedron or arrow is a
>good marker to follow.

Right, unless it's summer in Perris and the wind changes between the time the first and last jumper lands.

>To use two examples: in Perris the direction is set by the first
> jumper, where in Skydive Algarve a fixed direction is set by using a
> fixed wooden marker.

Again, that works as long as the arrow isn't pointing downwind. The guy whose job it is to set it up can screw up, just like the first guy landing can.

There are a lot of ways that can work. They all have their drawbacks.

[tombuch 0]

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My question is: How is it safer to allow the first man down for landing direction rather than use a fixed direction?

As others have said, first man down isn't really the "safest" but is just one way of doing it. I like the idea of everybody discussing the landing direction before boarding. Check out Article 12, "Landing Direction Defined" at http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm for discussion points.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[lewmonst 0]

Oh yeah, this has been a problem recently in Perris. The thing is, the rules at every dz are different, and when visiting a dropzone other that your own home dz, please make sure you know and understand the rules. The grass in Perris is long and narrow, so the rules are very clear. First person sets the direction, either South to North or North to South and should land into the wind. In light and variable wind conditions, that pattern should be set South to North, ei, towards the big hangar. Look at the flags in the landing area. The tet is only accurate in moderate or high winds, and in light or no winds, is off balance and likes to sit point South-SouthEast. In no wind, I've turned the tet to point North, but it won't stay there. So, in Perris, don't just go by the tet. Please. We had a question with this just last week with an Eloy regular where the Tet in Eloy rules. But that's not the case in Perris. However, one rule that is the same in Eloy and Perris, if someone sets the landing direction and you don't like it, LAND OUT, off the grass.

Also, setting up landing direction and landing pattern start as soon as you're under canopy. You should be aware of all the other canopies in the air, and know where they are going. Even if someone hooks from 500 feet, you can tell what direction they are setting up to land in if you pay attention. If they are setting up at the South end of the grass, they are going to hook and land towards the North, and vice-versa.

What cause much of the problems last week was jumpers racing to be the first one down. Please, please, please, don't race to be the first one to land. We had several jumpers in the second and third group out, under 150's and 170's, spiraling down and trying to beat the jumper from the first group out under an 83 who was clearly going towards one end of the grass. Landing is not a race. Racing to be the first one down is not only dangerous in that you are spiraling over the landing area, but you also cannot look out for other canopies and figure out what they are doing. If I could, I would hang on brakes all day and let everyone else land first, but being first group out on my canopy, this doesn't work. So I have to negotiate into the landing pattern with everyone else. Be predictable. Spiraling and S-turning all over the place is not predictable. If you want to play with your canopy, open high, do so and land out, but don't try to do all that playing while racing to be the first one down and negotiating 20 other canopies setting up landing patterns.

I recently landed out because I was following someone towards the south end of the grass to do a 180 and land to the north when at around 500 feet they did a 180 to the north and then another 180 to land towards the South. Which, under a stiletto at 1.3, you can do, but doing 2 180's under 500 feet on my canopy would kill me. So I landed out in the student circle, as I certainly couldn't have continued my pattern and landed in the opposite direction as he did. He apologized afterwards for hosing me, not that he did anything so wrong, but he was aware afterwards that he hosed me. Which is why I emphasize, be predictable, and all that playing and spiraling should be done high, and not near the landing pattern.

We had another incident where, in Perris, the first one down intentionally set a significant (>5mph) downwind pattern. Everyone followed him and one girl ate dirt because she overshot the grass and couldn't run out the speed of the landing. Who's at fault? well, both... The rules in the grass are that the pattern should be set into the wind, if there is significant wind. So the first guy down, hot-shotting it, hosed everyone else. But, everyone else does not have to land in the grass. The following jumpers should be observant and notice he is setting a downwind pattern, and if they don't like it, land out in the dirt or student area.

In Perris, I don't even look at the tet, I look at the flags and windsocks. If you are not sure, hang out on your brakes and try to figure out what everyone else is doing. Being the first one down is more of a burden than a privilege, and if you don't understand the landing pattern rules and are fully aware of the other canopies around you, you can hose them or create an unsafe situation. In the situation you described, I would ask, how did you get to be almost the first one down? As for who was right? Well, neither, as you both should have been aware of eachother, and had you been soon enough, you wouldn't have gotten into that situation. And even when you did realize it, the opposite directions, you both should have aborted the grass area and gone out in the dirt.

Besides, as fast as Tim drives, you'll get back to the packing area if you land out sooner than if you land in the grass and walk anyway. I love landing on the dirt road in the north field and skiiing in.

Peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[mjosparky 3]

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We had another incident where, in Perris, the first one down intentionally set a significant (>5mph) downwind pattern.

People like this will get handed their head some day. Its not cute it is dangerous.

Good post Lew.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JeffSkydiver 0]

From what I understand, first man down applies to each particular landing area.

If there are several landing areas, unless they are right smack abutting each other, then go to a different area.

I jumped at a new DZ yesterday. I was not the first nor the last down. I did however land at a much bigger field not far from where everyone else was landing. All went well.

Usually there are more than one suitable fields in which to land. We don't all HAVE to land close enough to impress the waiting female tandem customers.

Pick a field and land into the wind. If it's not the same field where others have just landed then pick another. There's no shame in walking or being picked up - with a truck or golfcart; don't try too hard to get picked up by an ambulance.

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[diablopilot 2]

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In Perris, I don't even look at the tet, I look at the flags and windsocks.

Flags are a poor indicator as the indicate in much too light conditions and are subject to too much jumper interperetation. What is "light and variable"? It's when the wind sock is not moving.

It is not uncommon to have the flags in the Perris area indicating in wildly different directions from one end of the grass landing area to the other in hotter months. Often this can be caused by the change in ground temperatures as air masses move on and off the grass.

*Note avaid landing at the "edges" of the grass when it's hot. Results can be scary.

One of the best wind indicators avaliable are the wind blades that include the long streamer tail. They will indicate in about 5 mph but not too much below that. Unfortunately they have fallen out of favor for competition style blades.

*Flags and streamers are GREAT tools for indicating the presence of dust devils. Jumpers should use other indicators to determine landing direction and not get focused on the indicators but also learn to read trafic. If other canopies are setting up for a South to north, and a small canopy pilot sees this yet will still be the first down they should have the courtesy to set that patern if safe to do so. That does not remove anyone elses responsibility of following the patern if that jumper decides to be a jerk.

* Note. If a jumper can not safely land ( doesn't mean stand-up, but that's a bonus) in a less than 5 mph down wind condition, they should rethink canopy choices. Often in hotter months the wind direction in a landing area can reverse by that much in 10 to 20 seconds.

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If you are not sure, hang out on your brakes and try to figure out what everyone else is doing.

Good idea. I want to clarify that this is acceptable to do up wind or in a holding area. It is not acceptable over the top of the landing area. Holding brakes over the top of the landing area is unsafe, rude and will make your toes smell like garlic.

* Slightly unrelated, and not usually an issue at one aircraft DZ's but often an issue at larger multiple aircraft opperations, Tandems and Students should ALWAYS have right of way. Don't fuck with them.

* On a selfish point.....I'm always right so follow me.

Good post lew.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

Jump a 245 Sharpchuter, go to 1/2 brakes at 1000 feet and watch which way the landing canopies drift after landing. They are a real big wind sock. Works for me.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[itllclear 1]

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Besides, as fast as Tim drives, you'll get back to the packing area if you land out sooner than if you land in the grass and walk anyway.
Peace
lew

Don't forget the tip at the end of the day!!

Blue Skies

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[Peej 0]

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If you are going to show up in one of the publications, it should be for a milestone, rather than tombstone, event.

That's a nugget, if it's ok with you i'd liketo use that in my sigline?

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

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[riggerrob 558]

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We had another incident where, in Perris, the first one down intentionally set a significant (>5mph) downwind pattern.

People like this will get handed their head some day. Its not cute it is dangerous.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Deliberate down wind landings in the main landing area are just plain rude.

DZs really need 2 or 3 separate landing areas.
The first area for mainstream skydivers, a second landing area for hot-shots, and a third area for students.
Oh, and while we are designating separate landing areas, leave the old farts - with their Para-Foils - alone in the pea gravel bowl. They built the pea gravel bowl decades before many of us started jumping and have been landing in it longer than they can remember, so long that they cannot remember much else (senility, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more) so don't waste your time trying to tell them any different.

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[EricaH 0]

A point to make bout learning to read traffic. I find it extreemly hard to determine which way swoopers are going to land. A friend of mine jumps a stilletto & doesn't set up till bout 500 ft. At that altitude w/ my Spectre & a bit of a wingloading, I'm half way through my base leg & needed to be set up before going downwind. But there are the people on Velocities setting up closer to 1000 ft. And at my dz, most people hookturning are doing 270s. From Lew's description, sounds like most there are doing 180s, which along w/ 360s are not encouraged @ my home dz but seem extreemly popluar @ dzs I've visited. And you have those randome other degrees of turning thrown in just to confuse us. Who's to say if someone is on a Stilletto setting up for a lower 270 or someone on a more steep diving canopy setting up for a 90? I can't tell from 80 ft higher & many many yards of horizantal seperation. And if there're setting up for a 270 how am I suppose to tell which direction the turn will be going? If they're heading east, for a final of north or south... do I set up to the north or to the south of them? If the windsocks are so unreliable - I'll end up like the original poster going against the pattern.

I was recently visiting a dz w/ this rule. On my 2nd jump of a 6 day vacation someone decided to land downwind in bout 12mph winds w. a 270 approach. I was bout the 10th person to land & high enough @ their initiation to follow them. The windsock & tetrahedons were all pointing different directions. I didn't even know I was going downwind till bout 8 ft above the ground. Luckly I was able to correct my flying & landed w/ only a small knee scrape.
but being a new dz @ a higher altitude; I'm glad this was all that happened.

Since I have a mid/higher loaded Spectre w/ a much steeper glide angle, I need to know which I'm going to be landing for my set up often way before the first person's landing approach is readable. What would lovers of this rule say to do in this case?

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[ianmdrennan 2]

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And if there're setting up for a 270 how am I suppose to tell which direction the turn will be going?

Same way as if they were doing a 90 degree turn to final.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[EricaH 0]

yah,
but because some don't necessarly start their hookturns @ the far edge of the landing area, it's not always evident which direction they will be landing, nor even what degree of turn they will be performing.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[damion75 0]

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What cause much of the problems last week was jumpers racing to be the first one down. Please, please, please, don't race to be the first one to land.

That was certainly part of the problem - probably the major lesson I took away was that from then on I decided to hang about on half brakes for a while!

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Besides, as fast as Tim drives, you'll get back to the packing area if you land out sooner than if you land in the grass and walk anyway. I love landing on the dirt road in the north field and skiiing in.

That was probably the other thing I took away - the north field is great and I went over there a lot afterwards. But I didn't mean to point the finger at Perris, it was only an example and some smaller DZs might not have that extra large secondary landing area?

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* Note. If a jumper can not safely land ( doesn't mean stand-up, but that's a bonus) in a less than 5 mph down wind condition, they should rethink canopy choices. Often in hotter months the wind direction in a landing area can reverse by that much in 10 to 20 seconds.

Definitely agree there, also with the comment about bright canopies. I like to be seen in the sky - there are too many crazy / unthinking people up there to risk being invisible!

Thanks for your help guys and girls. Very interesting!

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[ianmdrennan 2]

I can understand that.

Quite honestly there's no 100% right answer. I've had pilots suddenly change direction and end up doing totally opposite to what they appeared to be setting up to do and have had to change my plan accordingly (fast given my canopy choice).

Basically you have to be dynamic enough to go with the flow, but if "the flow" is doing weird or unpredictable things then land away from the mess and figure out with the other jumpers who screwed what up. If altitude doesn't permit landing away from the mess then try and stay as far away from it as you can, but keep your head on a swivel because if you're confused, you can bet the people behind you probably are too and could be doing unpredictable things right above you.

We had a couple of things happen like that this weekend in Z-hills. Personally I'm in favor of having a set landing direction prior to climbout and anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with the direction landing elsewhere for that load until it can be agreed upon. Of course that method has it's own drawbacks as well.

Oh and BTW the BEST thing you can do in the above circumstances is fly a predictable pattern so the pilots above you can clearly see the changes you're making and plan appropriately.

Landing confusion is caused by these things IMO:
1) Inconsiderate pilots (both swoopers and non swoopers). For example a swooper honking a big fat downwinder in the middle of the landing area with 5+ mph winds is pretty inconsiderate. Likewise the non swoopers who refuse to land in a cross wind (the must land into the wind at all costs) on light and variable days are 99% of the trouble in my experiences. Both groups need to realize and set realistic landing directions. You're not always going to be landing 100% into the wind and pilots need to realize and be comfortable with that.

2) Inconsiderate/erratic pattern flying. Spiralling, etc in the pattern cause this kind of confusion, as does not following the drop zone's landing pattern. If everyone flew a good pattern with the only difference being their final turn radius and altitude it'd be a lot clearer where everyone is going. (a reason that I don't like 180's, 360's or any revolution that doesn't follow a clear pattern to the setup point in the main landing areas - those learning those types of turns should be doing them out of the regular landing area for sure IMO).

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[lewmonst 0]

Most of the highly experienced pilots in Perris do 270's. Swoopers don't fly a conventional downwind, base, and final. They usually fly to a set up point and initiate the 270 onto final. Like someone said, the direction they will land is the same as if they were to just do a 90. A couple years ago I didn't get this either, and I would find myself confused on the pattern. I started paying close attention to traffic, the pilots and the types of canopies and it became easier to predict. Good pilots will set up with some consistency and accuracy. And on a 270 approach, unless there's a lot of headwind, there set up will be off to one end or the other of the desired landing area. And if there is a lot of wind, they should obviously being turning to land into the wind. (If they're showboating it downwind, they should be kicked out of the main landing and told to land at the pond.) So if you can figure out where they want to land, ie, closest walk back to the packing area, then see where the set up point is, you should be able to figure it out. Either way, if you are on a fairly docile canopy, try hanging in brakes up high and off to the side in a holding area until you can see what the pattern is. I sometimes hang in brakes from the time I'm open at 3000ft all the way till 800 ft when I fly to my set up. It's not the most fun way to fly, but it allows me to negotiate traffic and sort out landing direction.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[EricaH 0]

Thank you Ian. At my home dz, the swoopers are typically either the very first to land or very last (vidographers) and they have a separate swoop lane; even though we really only have 5 regulars using it. For the straight in landers, a pattern is easily noticable for setting up. And I don't care which way I land relative to most wind conditions; I'd just prefer not directly downwind, but will follow those infront of me (as long as they're not heading for a hazzard).

Lew, after re-reading your post I see that you say general directions - didn't mean to assume 180s. And thought it was odd since 180s & 360s are discouraged @ so many dzs.

As for 270/90s it is true that sometimes you can tell which direction the hookturner is going to land - but sometimes they appear to be in the middle of a line, left or right approach can not be told.

I have some personal issues to get over, but I prefer to be truning onto my base/crosswind leg by 800-500 ft. lf the (dang, I wanna say idiots) pilots below me are still indeterminate by the time I'm @ 800ft I have to assueme a landing pattern & set up for myself. And even then I'm going to end up w/ a stupid pattern since I've been hanging in brakes or just following the few between me & the first. I feel like I keep talking bout my steeper glide angle, but it does affect me. I have to know which way I'm going before others have even found the pattern.

To me this first man down rule almost ruins jumping since on a majority of jumps I've done @ Elsinore, Perris & Eloy I'm hanging there seriously stressing that I have to start setting up & no one below me has picked a pattern. It seems like the flow is always doing weird not paying attn things. Or like I missed someone picking a landing pattern before exiting; so everyone can goof off till their set-up altitude is achieved. Yes, I could go ahead & land 1/4 mile out - but since I'm on vacation & really want to get as many jumps in as possible; I'd prefer to not spend 10+ min on each jump walking back. So, I stress, hang in breaks, do almost all of my turns breaked & a crazy landing pattern all so I can end up going the same direction as the first person down... who in the end I'm sure has no frikin clue. Or I walk back from far far away, and end up begging the manifest people for a refund of my unused tickets.

Ian... somewhere I learned to pay attn to other canopies using "Russian Radar". At first that confused me, but once I got it I LOVED IT.... now I am constantly scanning the sky looking for any crazy that may want to crash into me by accident. All the while, in my head I have the radar "beep, beep, beep.." going on. helps on those stress free jumps.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[mjosparky 3]

Why is it that everyone has to adjust to fit in with what the "swoopers" what to do. If they do not want to fly a standard pattern, downwind, base, final, they should land out. Are they so special that long standing rules in all of aviation should be changed to accommodate them? jmo

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Why the sudden hostility towards swoopers? When I'm doing a 90 why am I not following your beloved Downwind, BASE and Final pattern? How about a 180? Where have I violated the pattern? 270s can be a little funky for those who don't understand what we are doing (it's usually the new jumpers who get confused, but then a new jumper should never be trying to set the landing direction). But as Ian pointed out, a 270 is basically a 90 preceeded by a 180. Now I will agree that anything above a 270 gets hard to read.

Hey I'm all in favor of having separate landing areas for swoopers, students and everyone else. In fact (assuming they build the pond as they say they are), the DZ where I do most of my jumps will have these separate landing areas. But not all DZs have this luxury. For sure swoopers need to know when to abort their swoop when traffic dictates, but why are we so evil for doing what we do when the window of opportunity presents itself to us.

As far as this thread is concerned, what gets me is the jumper spiraling down over the landing area under a biggish canopy thinking that they can set the landing direction. People need to observe who's on the load with each other and try to evaluate what sort of canopy they are flying, what sort of jump they are doing and determine if they have a chance at setting the landing direction or if they would be better off hanging out up high and waiting to see what develops. I made the mistake last year of thinking I could be the first one down at the Eloy holiday boogie (I was flying a bigger wing back then). But I learned my lesson. For me I'd rather look for my window of opportunities. And to do this, I've already evaluated who's on the load before I've jumped and then I scan the skies, trying to find a window of opportunity as I approach my setup point and abort my swoop if it looks like I will conflict with someone else. What is so wrong with that? In many cases, swoopers (with experience) do know how to control their canopies.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Downwind, base and final are not concepts that apply only to swoopers. They are concepts that EVERY canopy pilot should follow. Pilots do, what makes us different?

It's like rules of the road, and if you don't want to follow them then that's fine, but stay out of the main traffic area is my opinion.

Am I misunderstanding you or are you saying that set patterns shouldn't be followed?

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[CanuckInUSA 0]

And on a related note, people need to be aware of the local swooping lanes and avoid over flying those areas under canopy. Case in point, a couple of weeks ago there I was set up at 800 feet above our swoop course and looking pretty good to initate my 270 turn. Except for that damn tandem canopy directly below me over flying the swoop course's entry gates at about 400 feet. What could I do? The tandem was the lower canopy and thus had the right of way. I was screwed. I might have still performed my turn, but the reward was not worth the risk. Of course tandem masters are Gods at this DZ and they can do whatever they want to do and us fun jumpers (let alone those aweful swoopers that you obviously don't like) can't go up to a tandem God and tell them not to over fly the swoop course without getting shit thrown back at us.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,400]

>When I'm doing a 90 why am I not following your beloved Downwind,
>BASE and Final pattern?

90's are no problem.

>How about a 180?

They are a little bit of a problem. If you are directly over the landing area at 400 feet headed north, are you going to land north or snap a 180 and land south? 400 feet is a bit low for everyone in the pattern to reverse direction to be in sync with your chosen landing direction.

>Where have I violated the pattern?

No base leg. Standard patterns for uncontrolled airports are entry (preferably at a 45 to the downwind leg) downwind, base and final. If aircraft set up over the runway on final and then turned 180 in the last 400 feet it would screw any airport's pattern up. No one else would be able to predict which aircraft plan to do that and which don't.

>270s can be a little funky for those who don't understand what we are
>doing (it's usually the new jumpers who get confused, but then a new
>jumper should never be trying to set the landing direction).

I understand what you're doing, but again, it's hard to tell if a swooper over the landing area is going to do a 90 to land north or a 270 to land south. If he's following the traffic pattern, he will be doing a 90. When he doesn't it can screw up the pattern.

>For sure swoopers need to know when to abort their swoop when traffic
> dictates, but why are we so evil for doing what we do when the window
> of opportunity presents itself to us.

That's the key. If there is other traffic, do no more than a 90. If you're all alone up there (you and your friends got out low or opened high) then it doesn't matter what pattern you fly. But if you are one of the first to land, or are landing with other people, you have a responsibility to fly a standard pattern so others can see it and set up to land correctly.

[veter_ 0]

Rules are not necessarily = safety.

There's much less chance of injuries when 1 person lands downwind and 19 into the wind than all 20 downwind.

Use your head.

Somebody's mistake is not worth my life.