I'm scared of my reserve

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

Should I be though? Its a 1993 Raven 1- 181 sq. feet. On the warning label it says not to exceed 185 pounds in order to avoid serious injury/death. When I bought it I didn't exceed 185, but now I do and am pushing 200. Is it an issue of the manufacturer not wanting people to have a high WL on ANY reserve, or is it an issue of this particular reserve performing at such a wing loading?


I plan on losing the weight that I've gained, but as someone wise said it isn't smart to bank on money you will inherit, weight you will lose, and experience you will gain. Why does the manufacturer recommend such a conservative loading? I don't like the idea of going against manufacturer recommendations on my reserve, but is this just a 'cover your ass' type of warning?

For the record- yes I have talked to my rigger about this. He says he feels like it is still safe to jump the canopy. I'm just looking for others' opinions.

[pilotdave 0]

See if you can hook it up as a main (on a borrowed rig) and test jump it. See how it flies. Ravens have bridle attachment points (to be used as mains). I think precision limits how many times it can be jumped as a main (and then be used as a reserve)... 2 jumps maybe?

Dave

[hackish 8]

I suspect you would find that is the test dummy weight and designed weight used to certify the reserve under its TSO. It is possible that it may not perform exactly within the TSO requirements above that weight limit. I had copies of the requirements here somewhere but can't find them :(

It would probably still work but it's hard to recommend using such a reserve when the manufacturer clearly states its operating limits and you're outside of them.

Probably a good question for discussion in the rigging forum.

-Michael

[AggieDave 6]

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yes I have talked to my rigger about this. He says he feels like it is still safe to jump the canopy. I'm just looking for others' opinions.

So your rigger is cool with you exceeding the place-carded limits of your TSO'ed reserve? That's different.

Everything I've read about Raven reserves is that they fly like hell and stall out quickly when loaded up. Personally I stick to PD reserves. Tried and true, no safety recalls. Then again, I'm a bit bias, but I was when I paid full price too.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BETO74 0]

There was a safety bulletin a while back on ravens before Im gonna say the year 2000? I have two reserve ride on ravens after the bulletin and is true they fly like crap but still safe my life twice, both times with 3 seconds delayed after cutting away, I stick with PD now the reserve 113 also overloading it. But I would not do that to a Raven to be honest!

Opps almost forgot... your rigger should had check if your Raven is ok, the problem was this canopies were legal to fly under manufacture recommendations but that was IT, the reason some fail after exceding manufacture recommendation were the stiching tab that connects the lines with the canopy were not double sew or Z stile sew into the material canopy you can check yourself next repack cicle and also check the forums there was a big fuzz about that issue here.

Me personally I now spend my money on equipment that is tested far and beyond what they supposed to perform under perfect condition, by the way I also had two cut aways under PD_R 113 never had a sweeat-er flare under a reserve totally recommended it.

Later

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[pilot-one 0]

Quote

Should I be though? Its a 1993 Raven 1- 181 sq. feet. On the warning label it says not to exceed 185 pounds in order to avoid serious injury/death. When I bought it I didn't exceed 185, but now I do and am pushing 200. Is it an issue of the manufacturer not wanting people to have a high WL on ANY reserve, or is it an issue of this particular reserve performing at such a wing loading?


I plan on losing the weight that I've gained, but as someone wise said it isn't smart to bank on money you will inherit, weight you will lose, and experience you will gain. Why does the manufacturer recommend such a conservative loading? I don't like the idea of going against manufacturer recommendations on my reserve, but is this just a 'cover your ass' type of warning?

For the record- yes I have talked to my rigger about this. He says he feels like it is still safe to jump the canopy. I'm just looking for others' opinions.

Hmmmmm...15 years old. I would be more worried about the age then the weight limit. In both cases I say get rid of it and buy something new or newer. I have 1 ride on a Raven and it didn't flare for shit. That's reason number 3 to find something else.
It probably is safe to jump but if you can afford it get something that's a bit more modern. PD or Smart comes to mind quickly. Of course I can already hear it. There are those that will argue.

[diablopilot 2]

There is a lot of second hand, and rumor created information in this thread. Sometimes the best place to start would be with the manufacturer.


Here's what I can tell you:

A 1993 Super Raven 1 (181 square feet) is a fine reserve. They function quite well for a 15 year old F-111 design. The have saved skydivers as reserve canopies repeatedly.

Many people will tell you that "Ravens fly like shit." and most of these people are confused about under what conditions this occurs. There is a second series of Raven canopies, know as a "Micro Raven" that followed the original raven when skydivers started demanding smaller reserves to match their rapidly shrinking mains, and keep their rigs looking "cute". IIRC "Micro Ravens", were made in the following sizes; 150, 135, 120, 109.

Micro Ravens are pretty much a "scaled" Raven, and since the canopy was designed before people started loading canopies much over 1.0 they are not designed for heavier loadings. I would not recommend loading an older design much over 1.3, and especially not the smaller Micro Ravens, as the poor performance of overloading such a design is amplified in the smaller sizes.

You don't have a Micro Raven.

In addition, people will trot out the "Service Bulletin" argument. The facts about the bulletin are pretty clear if one reads it: SB1221

You don't have a canopy affected by the service bulletin.

What you have is a canopy that is placarded to a safety standard that the manufacturer thought was sensible at the time. Times change. You could very well sell the canopy and buy another larger one, if that's what makes you feel better, but if it's the size that worries you, don;t let anyone do you the disservice of telling you that you'll be ok on another manufacturer's canopy in an equal or smaller size.

For what it's worth, I'd feel fine under a Super Raven 181 at your or my weight. I have rides on the DASH M Micro Raven 150, at 1.3lbs per sq ft. and it flew fine, as well as jumps on Super Raven 1.There's a reason they were the B A S E canopy of choice at one time.

Do not expect ANY reserve canopy to fly like your main, especially if you fly a modern ZP 9 cell. They are a different animal all together and for good reason.

And if yo do choose to sell it, let me know.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I suspect you would find that is the test dummy weight and designed weight used to certify the reserve under its TSO. It is possible that it may not perform exactly within the TSO requirements above that weight limit. I had copies of the requirements here somewhere but can't find them :(

It would probably still work but it's hard to recommend using such a reserve when the manufacturer clearly states its operating limits and you're outside of them.

Probably a good question for discussion in the rigging forum.

-Michael

I suspect that your reply is wildly inaccurate.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[chuckakers 370]

Pretty sure the TSO max weight is 254lbs. With that said, my advise is to not jump any reserve canopy you don't have 100% faith in. It, after all, your reserve.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[darkwing 4]

You don't want these thoughts to be an issue at 1500 feet going 100 mph. Buy a new reserve.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[kefran 0]

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You don't want these thoughts to be an issue at 1500 feet going 100 mph. Buy a new reserve.

+1 !

i would feel very uncomfortable just to have a single little doubt about what is supposed to save my life ... and a brand new one isn't that expensive neither !

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[hackish 8]

Quote

Quote

I suspect you would find that is the test dummy weight and designed weight used to certify the reserve under its TSO. It is possible that it may not perform exactly within the TSO requirements above that weight limit. I had copies of the requirements here somewhere but can't find them :(

I suspect that your reply is wildly inaccurate.

It may be totally incorrect but if the label says max deployment weight of X then there is probably a reason for it.

I had the formal TSO testing specs somewhere and they had a long list of the test drops where a dummy of some weight had to be under a flying reserve after X feet under a bunch of different conditions. If I could find it then I'd know for sure but I assume they pass the TSO requirements with a dummy that is not outside their design specs.

Anyone got a link to the TSO testing procedures? I'm curious.

-Michael

[councilman24 36]

Not only is your reply widely inaccurate it's irresponsible.

For your education, that reserve is certified well above the 'recommended' limit. Meaning it preforms to the TSO requirments at much higher weight.

Overload testing for cetification occurs at even higher loadings.

I'll refer you to PIA TS-135 avaialbe for all to read at the PIA website. It's the standard proposed for the new Technical Standard Order currently under review at the FAA. Older standards are available in Poynter's manual and elsewhere. The current standard is available to purchase from SAE.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

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If I could find it then I'd know for sure but I assume they pass the TSO requirements with a dummy that is not outside their design specs.

Anyone got a link to the TSO testing procedures? I'm curious.

-Michael

You assume too much. The 180 lbs is the recommended weight limit. The certified limit is higher. Structual testing is higher stills.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

To your original question. First, remember the label recommendations and limits are suspended weight, not your weight naked. Gear up, get on the scale, and that's the weight you should compare. And yes the main counts because you may have a total.

Two, I jump the same reserve at a higher limit. Do I expect to landing to be a liitle rough? Yes. Do I expect it to hold together yes. Should I be jumping a bigger one? Yes and do in my other rig.

Should you jump it? Maybe. If 200lbs is the suspended weight then maybe. But at your experience level you may not be ready for the difference in canopy response and flight AND pushing the weight recommendation. I have lots of jumps on Ravens and other F-111 type canpies as mains so I won't be surprised.

Ravens can't be all bad, they were once one of the most popular mains. The exact same canopy as your reserve.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[peregrinerose 0]

I'm with the folks that said if you weren't 100% comfortable with your reserve, you need to get a new reserve. The last thing you want to do is be under a canopy that isn't landable and be afraid to cut away due to this factor.... trust me on that one, I've been there and it's not a pleasant decision to have to make.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[dunderhead1 0]

there is a reason why some choose to use a Raven as a BASE canopy...most base canopy isn`t loaded more than 0,8...rather 0,6-0,7

[LyraM45 0]

Are you 185 out the door or 185 without your rig? If so, then I would consider getting a BIGGER reserve, and while you're at it, something you feel comfortable on. That sounds like your loading this reserve pretty high for having 60 jumps. My rigger brought up a good point to me the other day when I downsized my reserve to 1:1; he said think about the worst case senario and you're unconscious and you have a cypress fire-- are you comfortable just burying it into the ground unconscious under your reserve? They are definitely not made for highly loaded performance landings. Just my 2 cents.....

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[jacketsdb23 45]

I jump a 16 year old PD reserve. Works great...i tested it (unintentionally) just to make sure

I may be coming up on the 40 time pack limit within the next year. I should probably get a new reserve soon, although I have complete faith in the one I use now. I talked to the manufacturer and my rigger before using it though and that helped me to have confidence in it.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[hackish 8]

Quote

On the warning label it says not to exceed 185 pounds in order to avoid serious injury/death

Quote

For your education, that reserve is certified well above the 'recommended' limit. Meaning it preforms to the TSO requirments at much higher weight.

Are we talking about the maximum deployment weight or the manufacturer's maximum recommended weight? I assume the OP meant the former. If the manufacturer states "do not exceed" how can you argue against that?

-Michael

[ryoder 1,410]

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Older standards are available in Poynter's manual and elsewhere. The current standard is available to purchase from SAE.

All of those standards are in the back of FAA-H-8083-17 "Parachute Rigger Handbook", which was published in 2005:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/FAA-H-8083-17.pdf

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[hookitt 0]

All parachutes should have a canopy control check performed after opening. A reserve is included in the all parachutes category.

The Super Raven will not fly like a Spectre so if it is flared like a Spectre you will stall it. The stall point is higher so do some test flares and remember where it is.

Most reserve rides allow plenty of time for a few test flares. If you are down so low that you can't test flare, you are WAY in the basement. At that point, one should probably just flare part way and prepare to crash... I mean PLF. Have you practiced PLFs?

I won’t suggest a higher wingload than the suggested max, however it is very common. If you do find yourself under it, I can't emphasize enough that a few test flares are crucial to your well being.... on any canopy.

If you have the means, pull it out and put a test jump on it. It's perfectly fine to put a familiarity jump on it.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[councilman24 36]

180 lbs is not the Maximum operating weight limitation. It is the recommended weight limit either for that canopy or for that canopy at that experience level. I'd look it up but don't have a manual handy in person or online. It is certified to a maximum operating limitation of 254lbs.

If you were familiar with the certification process and the products you wouldn't have assumed 180lbs was the max. certified limit. And no rigger (okay, almost no rigger) would support using a reserve outside of the maximum certified limits. It can be considered illegal.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,471]

1) Smaller Ravens have had problems landing bigger jumpers. This is not necessarily a problem with the reserve itself; the Raven still flies like it always did. But it does not have as powerful or deep a flare as a modern canopy, and if you try to land a smaller Raven at a higher loading the same way you'd land a Pilot, you'll stall it and chowder. I've seen two broken legs due to this problem.

2) You shouldn't be overloading _any_ reserve. Make sure that your exit weight is below the reserve's rated maximum, and that it is within the recommended range for your experience. For example, if you are an intermediate skydiver, you'd probably want a PD-218 or equivalent.

[BETO74 0]

It can be considered illegal. ***

I don't know about Illegal but not recommended, riggers built these canopies i had not seen one get charge for building or advertizing smaller reserves actually seems to be the trent, personally I like the optima reserve concept smaller pack volume to get a bigger reserve seems to be a bright idea.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html