Regulation of RSL's: was Fatality in Rockmart, GA -- 26Jul08

[jacketsdb23 45]

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No way you could make me jump with a RSL. No thanks. I was looking for a new rig, but now I know that Jav is out.

AAD - that's another matter. I'll always jump with one of those.

I'm baffled...what is it about an RSL that you don't like? I'm all for the choose what you want to jump with and do it. Just curious as to why the AAD wins your confidence and the RSL doesn't? If the guy in GA had an RSL he might be here talking about his cutaway. I'd sure rather be kicking out of a couple line twist on my reserve than not being able to get a reserve out.

There have been two incidents in the last month where an RSL most likely would have resulted in nothing more than a cutaway and low reserve opening. One guy had close to 6000 jumps. Another had almost 300 jumps. They are on opposite sides of the spectrum that encompass 99% of us skydivers out there. We surely fit somewhere in between the experience levels of these guys. None of us are as good as we think we are.

And it only takes one incident to realize that. Especially when we hit the ground trying to find our reserve handle that has been hidden behind our back because we loosened our chest strap to get an extra two feet of swoop.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[MarkM 0]

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2) Freefly coaching doesn't have anything to do with flying a canopy. As a matter of fact if they're freeflying they should be wearing an AAD. What if they have a collision with another diver and get knocked out? Think their chute is going to come out on it's own? Not without an AAD it won't.

1k is about 1-2 hours of coached tunnel time. I'd rather jump with the guy that has the training to not take me out, then one with the AAD in case he does.

[kelpdiver 2]

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No you're brilliant. So damn bright your momma calls you son. If you read my last post I came to the conclusion that people should jump what they want. You're a little late on this discussion and I guess you must be bored with nothing else to do.

He didn't need 20 posts to come to that conclusion. Not everyone reads the entire thread before replying, and you were pretty adament that SOMETHING HAS GOT TO BE DONE for most of the way.

Mandating an AAD be purchased, but not used was silly. Financially stupid, but unrealistic as well. I don't think any of the countries and US DZs that mandate AAD use say you just have to own one. They expect you to use it.

Mandating an RSL but not its use doesn't cost as much, but you still are making the system more complicated. If the user is never going to use it, their rig has a KISS violation. Don't add failure points that don't contribute function or safety.

[west33freefall 0]

I think RSL's are like seat belts and AADs are like airbags. None are guarenteed to save lives but they do help. RSL's could help many situtions but could be bad in others. The skyhook is def. the way to go. I think we need to be more concerned about ourselves. It is a free country and it is a personal choice to wear one. Just like seat belts I don't always wear it even though I should. As time goes I am guessing AADs will start to become so pleniful that manufactures will start putting them directly in Complete rigs. RSLs on the other hand I think should def. be left as an option. I am always checking that I can disconect it when I practice EPs just in case I am spining or I think I will tumble in after I cut away ***especially if I have plenty of altitude***

[Andy9o8 0]

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In my humble opinion, as long as you're not affecting others, there's no need for what you do to be regulated. And my wearing an RSL (or not) really does not affect anyone but me (to any reasonable extent).

Then why should BASE jumpers be prevented from jumping their single-canopy BASE rigs when they choose to use an aircraft as a launch platform?

[pilotdave 0]

Because that violates an FAR and therefore does affect others... such as the pilot.

Fatalities also affect people other than the one that died. I'm not suggesting that RSLs should be mandated in particular, but it's very selfish to believe that our choices as far as our own safety go affect only one person. Nobody else has my permission to die... it might affect me so don't do it.

Dave

[DanG 1]

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I am always checking that I can disconect it when I practice EPs just in case I am spining or I think I will tumble in after I cut away ***especially if I have plenty of altitude***

Please talk to your local instructors about this. Adding a step to your EP's such as trying to disconnect the RSL shackle may not be a very good idea.

- Dan G

[brucet7 0]

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Because that violates an FAR and therefore does affect others... such as the pilot.

Fatalities also affect people other than the one that died. I'm not suggesting that RSLs should be mandated in particular, but it's very selfish to believe that our choices as far as our own safety go affect only one person. Nobody else has my permission to die... it might affect me so don't do it.

Dave

I want to affirm that death affect people around us profoundly. Part of my job is dealing with death, funerals, counseling the people left behind, etc. I watched people at my DZ talking about someone who died in another part of the country a couple of weeks ago. "I knew that guy." was the start of several conversations. I was moved just reading the thread about how long before people lost someone. Death is never a solitary event. Dying when one doesn't need to is the harshest blow of all!

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[skydude89 0]

I am a beliver in RSl's as i had a cutaway from a line over and i was spinning pretty fast, i cut away and boom i was under my reserve, sure i had a few line twists but i kicked out of them and landed just fine. my new rig i ordered is gona have the drx from mirage, hopefully they wil be allowed to install it by the time my rig is done.

[west33freefall 0]

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I am always checking that I can disconect it when I practice EPs just in case I am spining or I think I will tumble in after I cut away ***especially if I have plenty of altitude***

Please talk to your local instructors about this. Adding a step to your EP's such as trying to disconnect the RSL shackle may not be a very good idea.

Its not that i practice pulling it off during my EPs I just make sure the tab is pullable and that I am thinking of what kind of situation I am in. If a fast mal. happens I doubt that I think of it anyways. Its just to try and add another element of awareness!

[JCW1966 0]

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I think RSL's are like seat belts and AADs are like airbags. None are guarenteed to save lives but they do help.

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After all the discussion, the pros and cons for and against RSLs & AADs, the above stament probably holds true more than any other I have read on here.

It's because they help I choose to use them. I wish everyone would use them. But not everyone will so for me it's pretty much a mute point to discuss it further.

Thanks to everyone for some great input on both sides of the argument. Especially the "against" regulation crowd. Even though I fully intend on using mine I no longer care if anyone else uses their's or not, it's their choice. And like someone said earlier with so many in disagreement about AADs and RSLs there are no black and white answers on the matter.

I wish I knew what the answer was but I obviously don't.

So to everyone, no matter how you jump, what you jump with, at least be safe when jumping. I'm tired of reading about people I know and don't know losing their life in a sport we all love and are very passionate about.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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I think RSL's are like seat belts and AADs are like airbags. None are guarenteed to save lives but they do help.

I think you have those backwards.

The AAD is almost like the seat belt. It nearly always helps, doesn't hurt. But "almost" has to be included because Airtec insisted swoopers couldn't set one off until someone did and died. The passive seat belts that were attached to the door was also flawed - if the crash opened the door, the shoulder strap was useless.

RSLs, like airbags, are not appropriate in all cases. Airbags kill far too many small women to be mandated as they are (opinion). RSLs certainly don't meet the requirements to always be used.

[yarpos 4]

you may percieve it to be your freedom, but if you go in because you freely made a decision it actually does affect others. Setting aside family, there is an impact on everyone there, especially the DZO that has to deal with the mess. Its not something that most people get used to.

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[P-dro 0]

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. Airbags kill far too many small women to be mandated as they are (opinion). RSLs certainly don't meet the requirements to always be used.

C'mon, let's be serious!! How many accident can you quote??
Even if not mandatory 95% of cars sold today have airbags, and a very significant proportion of cars have them (at least here in France). If the problem you mention would exist, we'd hear about a least once in a while...

Same for RSL, they have limitations, but in the last 3 year, how many people have been killed by a rsl ? how many may have been saved by one?
It's just a question of proportion. It saves more life than it costs. I understand very experienced jumpers that prefer remain in full control of their EP. But what worries me, is that I see a lot of junior jumper who assume that to be a cool skydiver you must not have a RSL, without really comparing pro and cons.
In the end I think it must remain a question of personal choice.

On the AAD front it's simpler since it's mandatory here for everyone, but we still have had 2 fatalies in the last six with turned off AAD.
And apparently reading incident reports, some recent fatalities in the US could have been prevented by using one. So if any safety device had to be made mandatory, the AAD would be in my opinion a much better bet (except of course for competition swoopers, but it's a very specific user base...)

[chuckakers 370]

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It's time that there is some requirements in this country other than you have to have your reserve repacked by a master rigger. There are other countries that actually require an AAD. Why not RSLs as well? They can always be disconnected if and when the need arises such as 2 divers entangled under canopy.

I don't know if an RSL would have helped here or not but if I have to cut away I want that RSL option.

You have a lot to learn. The last thing we need is more government intervention.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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[MarkM 0]

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you may percieve it to be your freedom, but if you go in because you freely made a decision it actually does affect others. Setting aside family, there is an impact on everyone there, especially the DZO that has to deal with the mess. Its not something that most people get used to.

I think a big part of these arguments is that you have two different personality types. Many people skydive because they enjoy the challenge of the sport, the socializing, the people, etc. But a lot of people enjoy the sport because it's one of those things that your choices 100% determine whether you live or die.

The one personality type sees an incident and thinks of how can that type of accident can be 100% eliminated from the sport. The other personality type sees it as an issue where the individual's choices were wrong and he died because of that.

If the person in this incident was wearing a RSL it may have saved his life. But if this guy had also had done correct EPs in a timely manner he would've likely lived as well.

[upndownshop 0]

Not sure if I picked up on everything that was discussed in regards to the RSL being mandatory, I assume the thought that Sun Path is mandating it is the belief? Seems like it has gone a couple of ways in here. I am also not sure if this was mentioned or not.
According to a conversation I had with Derek a little over a year ago, the only reason this has become an issue is because when the original javelin obtained its TSO, it had an RSL, therefore to remove it from production you have to get a new TSO. So every Javelin leaves the shop with one.
And that is about as far as I can go with that, I cant speak for the legality after the fact. Well not anymore than what has probably been mentioned in here.

Not sure if that shed any light or If i just repeated others, but I do know I will never jump with out an RSL unless doing CRW (and then i usually forget to disconnect it anyway)

blues
J

[kelpdiver 2]

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. Airbags kill far too many small women to be mandated as they are (opinion). RSLs certainly don't meet the requirements to always be used.

C'mon, let's be serious!! How many accident can you quote??
Even if not mandatory 95% of cars sold today have airbags, and a very significant proportion of cars have them (at least here in France). If the problem you mention would exist, we'd hear about a least once in a while...

From a 2005 Businessweek article:
7. Can airbags injure people? Yes. Occasionally, the energy required to inflate frontal airbags quickly can cause injury. Fortunately, most of these injuries are minor scrapes and abrasions. Serious injuries and deaths are relatively rare. Since 1990, deaths attributable to airbag inflation in low-speed crashes numbered more than 260 according to NHTSA. Approximately 65 percent of motorists killed by airbags have been passengers, and more than 90 percent of the passenger airbag fatalities have been children and infants, most of whom were unbelted or in rear-facing restraints that placed their heads close to the deploying airbag. Among the adult driver and passenger deaths, about three-quarters were women. More than 80 percent of those killed were unbelted or improperly restrained, and more than 90 percent of deaths occurred in vehicles manufactured before 1998.

In 1997, the federal government set rules allowing manufacturers to reduce the energy (or power levels) of frontal airbags. Indications are that newer airbag designs and efforts to educate motorists are reducing airbag-related injuries and deaths.
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You should note that European designs were always lower powered. US designs were set for a 175lb unbelted man.

Don't want to sidetrack too much into the introduced car analogy. I was interested to hear more photographers are using their RSL now. And then you have the direct pull of the reserve pioneered by the Relative Workshop guys that is somewhat like a super rsl becoming more prevalent. But certainly it seems premature to have any mandates on design/usage.