Failing AFF?

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

Quote

Did you fail one or two times and kept insisting that you go up that same day?

Ah, they did fail you at level three. Why'd you go back up that same day instead of taking some time to watch your video a few times and reflect on what you were doing wrong?

[bigway 4]

Tons of AFF students fail a level and go up later that day to repeat. Nothing strange there..... I think you will find most AFF students will want to do as many jumps as possible in a day if they have the opportunity. These days people are passing AFF in 48 hours in some places.

To have one instructor it sounds like this guy maybe on tandem progression.

What I dont get is how after 5 jumps they ask the guy to leave. For them to do that they must have major concern over him and may have just saved his life. You dont ask someone to leave easily and they had seen him jump enough to know that they need to stop him jumping.

I have not seen the last 3 videos, so i am speculating big time.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[bigway 4]

After another look at the video i sincerely believe that you are telling the truth. That is some gay ass music, Only a newbie to the sport would edit a video with the song "Jump".

I'm convinced.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[jephprospect 0]

I literally just finished AFF at this DZ last week. I watched the video over and over till I found the landing zone and confirmed it. I took my location info out of my profile since the DZ is a secret or whatever but your 1st 2 jumps looked more stable then mine besides the horrible exit of course. I really want to see your other 3. You can PM me and we can exchange notes i'm curious who your instructor was and what you did to make them so concerned.

P.S. For the record, I love this DZ and found the training awesome. It was fast and I did 5 jumps in 1 day as well. I learned a lot, had fun, felt safe, and when I graduated felt confident jumping on my own :-)

[bigway 4]

The DZ is no secret.

There are a few Dz's i believe in the states that do this progression.
It is good to hear you have become a confident skydiver.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[popsjumper 2]

AFF levels build on skills. It's important to get a grip on one skill before you move on to the next.

Level 2 (in most programs with 2 Instructors) is about learning to initiate and stop turns. Level 3 is about preventing turns (hover control and heading maintenance).

As opposed to "failing", it's more about not yet being able to meet the learning objectives so that you can proceed to more advanced skills.

I'm glad I didn't go with that particular Instructor. During my initial S/L training I had a very hard time learning to stop that wild-assed right-hand spinning.
I never understood why they let me go off on 5-second delays with that spin going on. I didn't learn to control it until I was on 15-second delays. I got to be an expert at getting out of line twists very early in the game.


At face value, it appears to me that you should keep at it. You had some good points going on and heading maintenance will come with practice and relaxation.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Needless to say, I was a little upset, not to mention the "no refund or raincheck" on the remaining two jumps.

When you prepay for an AFF course you generally get a discount. I wouldn't expect them to give you full price back on the remaining 2 jumps, but they should refund you something for the unused jumps since it's their choice, not yours, to not continue on with it.

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

Quote

After another look at the video i sincerely believe that you are telling the truth. That is some gay ass music, Only a newbie to the sport would edit a video with the song "Jump".

I'm convinced.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[bigway 4]

Quote

Quote

Needless to say, I was a little upset, not to mention the "no refund or raincheck" on the remaining two jumps.

When you prepay for an AFF course you generally get a discount. I wouldn't expect them to give you full price back on the remaining 2 jumps, but they should refund you something for the unused jumps since it's their choice, not yours, to not continue on with it.

They have to pay him back if they refused him the product/service he paid for. Scum bags if they dont.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[SimonBones 1]

It's really tough to get a real answer posting this online for several reasons. We're only hearing your side of the story and not the reasons the instructor(s) had for making these choices.

I am an AFF instructor and I have made the choice before not to jump with a student. I have also broken the news to a student that "this sport may not be for you" which can be a way of asking them not to come back to this DZ. Many instructors have been through this for a variety if reasons.

I've worked with students who just flat out scared me. Their attitude, their competency, their ability to safely operate a parachute, or whatever. Being a skydiving instructor is not like being a tennis coach. You're taking direct responsibility for someone else's life. Instructors have been responsible for student fatalities and injuries.

It's not really fair to instructors to start asking whether or not it's fair to fail you or ask you not to come back. Maybe you scared the shit out of the guy. Maybe he doesn't feel comfortable being responsible for your life after seeing the way you operate. Maybe he believes he is saving your life by asking you to not persue the sport. It's a tough call to make and no instructor likes making it. No instructor wants to go around booting students from the sport, that's not why skydivers become instructors. It usually saddens the instructor to make that call. I've felt like shit for doing it. But sometimes it's necessary.

You may disagree with his call, but in all reality, he's been doing this longer than you and has seen more things go ugly. The DZ does not want a fatality or an injury their. They're a business that can't afford the reputation of students pounding in and dying. They're a community of jumpers who don't want a fatal event to change the atmosphere there. An incident can really scar the whole group and traumatize the people who had to see it.

You can try going to another dropzone and getting a second opinion by evalutation. But it's not really fair to put his judgement in question. He probably made the difficult choice for the sake of your safety, the business, and their community.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[SimonBones 1]

Quote

So, I guess my question is - do you think they were justified in asking me to leave?

So yes, I think they were justified and reserve the right to make that judgement call.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[NickDG 23]

>>You can try going to another dropzone and getting a second opinion by evalutation.
Any student that shows up at a new drop zone in mid-student status raises a big red flag. They are going to want to know why . . .

And if you told me the same story as here, I'd have to make some phone calls.

On the exits, like others said - it's not your fault. Instructors and camera folks should pay little attention to your count, sway, or whatever. They go when you go. And then if they do mess up it's usually only by a split second or two.

Sometimes a student can be a concern on the ground, not just in the air, did something happen like an argument or altercation? Did they catch you doing something else in the parking lot?

NickD

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

They have to pay him back if they refused him the product/service he paid for. Scum bags if they dont.

Absolute total scumbags.

The first 2 jumps didn't look that bad. i've taken worse.

[SimonBones 1]

Quote

Absolute total scumbags.

Well I'm not going to jump on the band wagon until I hear the other side of the story. You never know what happend on the ground.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[bluepill 0]

Quote

It's a tough call to make and no instructor likes making it. No instructor wants to go around booting students from the sport, that's not why skydivers become instructors. It usually saddens the instructor to make that call. I've felt like shit for doing it. But sometimes it's necessary.

I would understand this if the problem is about attitude (ie to own and others safety)

But if it is a problem with ability or confidence, I dont understand why such a terminal statement like "maybe this sport is not for you" should be used.

Surely something more like advising the person to go away and spend some time in a tunnel to improve skills and confidence and then come and try again.
Or better still offer to coach the student in a tunnel and progress confidence and skills that way.

BP

[MajorDad 0]

Quote

Quote

They have to pay him back if they refused him the product/service he paid for. Scum bags if they dont.

Absolute total scumbags.

The first 2 jumps didn't look that bad. i've taken worse.

Same here. What's the rest of the story......

Blue ones,

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[bigway 4]

Quote

Quote

Absolute total scumbags.

Well I'm not going to jump on the band wagon until I hear the other side of the story. You never know what happend on the ground.

Agree 100%.

I dont want to part of a bandwagon, I just believe that if they have told him he cant jump anymore for his own safety then they should return the money for services not rendered.
However saying this i think a important factor to that might be the case that he paid for the course and then repeated a level so maybe they have deducted that jump from the money he paid upfront leaving his money all used up.

It is very difficult to comment on what he deserves when it is only a whuffos side of the story.

I actually have alot of respect for the dropzone in question to hold off and not post in this thread as they dont need to bring their business into the public forums. Sometimes when someone does not defend themselves in a public forum it is usually because it is nonsense and they have self control not to get into a battle with a bunch of people sitting on a couch.

I also respect the original poster for not outing the DZ in question as then it would have looked like it was a bad blood post and not a genuine 'iinformation search'.

Dropzones do not turn away students after 5 jumps without a very good reason. The students i have seen turned away before usually all was because they continued on some conversation topic that was making the business concerned.

Maybe this guy was joking about bouncing too much or something?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[peregrinerose 0]

I've taken much worse than that as well. But freefall skills don't give the whole picture... did the student spiral through traffic or be a hazard in other ways under canopy? Show poor judgement in other areas? Bad attitude? There has to be much more to the story that what the student is saying. I'd like to hear from the instructor as well. (edited to add, never mind on that... Bigway had some good points about the DZ not saying anything)

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[bigway 4]

***


Would be nice but really it is not really our business is it and a instructor should not feel like they have to justify their judgement call to the world. The desicion would have been hard enough, we dont need to stress him out by making him answer to this. We should support him and give him the benefit of the doubt as he has more than likely just made the call of a lifetime.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[SimonBones 1]

Quote

But if it is a problem with ability or confidence, I dont understand why such a terminal statement like "maybe this sport is not for you" should be used.

We watched a student at our dropzone open up under canopy on their first jump and start spiralling. Many radio commands were shouted to stop the spiral that seemed to fall on deaf ears. Almost every command was shouted into the radio. Finally at 600 ft the instructor shouted, "turn left!" and the student stopped the spiral. When he got to the ground we asked him what the hell happend. He claims that the canopy began spinning when he flared for controllability check. He said he didn't know what to do so he kept holding the flare and hoped it would come out of the spin. He said he heard every radio command. When he heard us shout, "turn left!" he said he looked up and realized that the entire time he had been holding one toggle and thought he had both of them. The other students in the FJC did great. The instructor told him that skydiving may not be the sport for him. If you were an instructor, would you ask that guy to come back? He was seconds away from death because he believed he had both toggles for 4,000ft. What was the student going to do next?

Not everyone can be a skydiver. Some people just don't have the mental aptitude. An instructor needs to be able to know when this is the case.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[mdrejhon 8]

There is an amazing thread about a local paralyzed jumper trying to progress to solo:
Paralyzed and progressing towards solo sky diving -info on what were doing
Your challenge is much simpler than this person...

This is the very same dropzone that taught me as a deaf skydiver -- So far, still seem to be Canada's first and only licensed deaf skydiver (among those born deaf)

I think never say never, but as a matter of couresy to the dropzone, I think they are probably a little nervous about their own safety too as well and for yours --

There's probably easy solutions, such as jump a whole batch of tandems in a "tandem progression" (modified AFF) style -- and go to wind tunnel. This may eventually calm you down and reduce difficulties in future jumps. Several tandems before AFF is a huge help also in eliminating some of the fright that often cause students to mess up a first-jump AFF or not to listen to radio, etc.

Go to a different dropzone that may have more experience with 'challenged' or 'difficult students', explain to them your situation with the original dropzone (to be honest and up front), and the next dropzone may be willing to work with you better. Also, explain you're willing to do as many tandems and wind tunnel time as necessary before trying out another AFF. The dropzone will see that you're flexible and willing, and they will see what they can do.

Now in regards to the original dropzone, ask them if the monies paid can still be used towards a tandem jump, jump with them one last time and say a cordial goodbye. It's better than nothing in a no-refunds situation.

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

***


Would be nice but really it is not really our business is it and a instructor should not feel like they have to justify their judgement call to the world. The desicion would have been hard enough, we dont need to stress him out by making him answer to this. We should support him and give him the benefit of the doubt as he has more than likely just made the call of a lifetime.

Ummm...... read my whole paragraph, including the edit that I added before you replied

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Fast 0]

For what it's worth- I think the one jumpmaster AFF stuff is a pretty shitty way to do it. In my opinion it's a way for the DZ to make more money and nothing else. It doesn't help the student learn. If the DZ is charging quite a bit less since it's only one jumpmaster then that is a different story, somehow I doubt that is the case.

It looks to me like you did a Level 1 jump then a level 2 jump, and got stuck on level 3s. Is that correct? What were the learning objectives of each skydive?

From the video that you showed (level 1 and 2???) on jump one and jump two you were backsliding quite a bit. You could have progressed to level 2 if everything other than that went perfect. I have kept people on level 1 before when the had horrible backsliding issues. Level 2, you would have done turns and forward flight in most AFF programs. If the backsliding wasn't sorted out by then, you would have just kept doing that. Why did you progress to a release dive if you were having so many problems? Why keep doing release dives if you are having that many problems?

Also, just as an evaluation of this dropzones practices, doing one jumpmaster AFF dives with exits from the outside of the plane seems pretty illogical to me. It doesn't allow the instructor to maintain control of the student prior to, during and after exit as clearly shown in this video. The door on this plane looks plenty big enough to be doing 1 jumpmaster exits from the inside with two hands holding onto the student. Not to mention that front float exits are kinda hard to do, why would you subject a student to that.

The exits that this video is showing have been pretty bad. The instructor, especially considering there is only one of them, isn't able to provide stability for you as shown I think, in the really far away video. That video person needs some retraining on how to exit with AFF students. I have found that when a student has a disorientating exit it makes it very hard to concentrate and learn for the rest of the skydive.

If you really want to stick with skydiving, my honest suggestion to you would be that you demand a refund on any money that you have not yet spent on jumps. Go to another dropzone that does AFF and suck it up and start over with a first jump course and level 1. Explain them your situation and go from their. Sometimes it just comes down one instructing method not working for a person. I don't think the way this dropzone is running their AFF program is the best means to provide a positive learning situation for students. You might really not be cut out for skydiving, but it sure doesn't seem like they are giving you the best circumstances to learn in. At least that is what it looks like from those two videos that were posted. I reserve the right to change my mind about this dropzone if it comes out that those videos aren't standard practice or something. Not trying to knock them, but since we don't know who they are there is no point in not saying what I think isn't great about their program. Sorry if I offend anyone there!

If they won't give you back the money that you have not spent because they are denying you service, report them to the better business association.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[NickDG 23]

>>Would be nice but really it is not really our business is it
I know what you're getting at, but I think (in a general sense) students should be everybody's business. If sport wide we all embraced our students more fully maybe Skyride wouldn't have gained a foothold, or Ted Mayfield would have gotten shut down sooner.

The Instructors involved here don't have to explain themselves to us, but I would imagine, or at least hope if they did, their explanation would stand up to the light of day.

At several DZs I've worked at we instituted something called Murder Sessions. Simply put it was anytime a student and instructor got into a situation that raised an eyebrow we'd gather all the Instructors available and put them into a room. Then the Instructor involved had to explain things. Nothing said ever left that room but if the Instructor made a mistake or a lapse in judgment they heard about it from the others. And it was meant to be brutal.

I even fell victim to my own idea. I was daydreaming under a tandem canopy and stayed on the wrong side of the wind line much too long. When I realized I screwed up there was no where to land but right on the runway while the Otter was back-taxiing on it. And I just got lucky the Otter pilot wasn't also daydreaming.

Another time I was in a Cessna, again with a tandem, and on jump run. It was hotter than hell and I was exhausted from jumping all day. I looked up at the pilot and he nodded at me. I took that to mean we were over the DZ and I rolled out. I threw the drogue looked down and discovered we where miles from the DZ.

I know we can't do Murder Sessions here on-line but sometimes a beat down by your peers is the best medicine.

And we all, every one of us, will deserve it once in a while . . .

NickD

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

But if it is a problem with ability or confidence, I dont understand why such a terminal statement like "maybe this sport is not for you" should be used.

We watched a student at our dropzone open up under canopy on their first jump and start spiralling. Many radio commands were shouted to stop the spiral that seemed to fall on deaf ears. Almost every command was shouted into the radio. Finally at 600 ft the instructor shouted, "turn left!" and the student stopped the spiral. When he got to the ground we asked him what the hell happend. He claims that the canopy began spinning when he flared for controllability check. He said he didn't know what to do so he kept holding the flare and hoped it would come out of the spin. He said he heard every radio command. When he heard us shout, "turn left!" he said he looked up and realized that the entire time he had been holding one toggle and thought he had both of them. The other students in the FJC did great. The instructor told him that skydiving may not be the sport for him. If you were an instructor, would you ask that guy to come back? He was seconds away from death because he believed he had both toggles for 4,000ft. What was the student going to do next?

Not everyone can be a skydiver. Some people just don't have the mental aptitude. An instructor needs to be able to know when this is the case.

In fairness, it's noteworthy that the student in your vignette was on his first jump. Sensory overload, combined with a totally foreign environment, can result in some scary things on a first jump, we all know that.

A few days ago, I gave my younger daughter her 1st-ever driving lesson, in a big, empty parking lot. It was amazing how little she knew about how the car worked, and how tenuous and oblivious she was, despite having passed the classroom phase of Driver's Ed, and of course having grown up riding in a car virtually every day of her life. Even the most basic stuff: " [panicked voice] How do I find the pedals with my feet if I'm not looking at them??!!??"

Thank God I was in car to grab the wheel or step on the brakes a few times during her First Drive. Can you imagine how that would have gone if she'd had no instructor in the car with her? Sounds to me like that student under canopy for the first time in your story.

Now segue to yesterday, her second time out. Same parking lot. And you know what? she did fine....for a second-timer. Not ready for road practice yet, but you could see that handling the car was already beginning to "click" for her. No more panic, or insane moves, or obliviousness. It probably would have been way premature to tell her that she isn't cut out for driving after only her First Drive.

Putting first jump students out on square canopies has been common since before the advent of "tandem Progression." Back when I started in the 70's, all students were put out on static lines and simple, round canopies. All they really had to do was exit the plane, and as long as they didn't have a malfunction, they could conceivably do nothing from exit until landing, other than keep their feet and knees together, and chances are they would probably have been fine.

Not so under square canopies; they can't just be dangled-under; they have to be flown, or you can wind up dead. But you'll get the occasional student who just can't do that on a first jump. That kind of student might turn out to be a good skydiver, even a good student, but not having an instructor along for the ride on the first jump is setting him up for failure.

I've never been a big fan of "tandem progression". But still, maybe this is one good argument to require all first jump students, whether on AFF or S/L- IAD programs, to make at least one tandem jump with an instructor strapped-on showing them the basics of canopy flight in real time, not just a voice on a radio. Who knows - it might have made a difference for the student in your story.