Do DZ Liability Waivers Hurt the Sport?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

The DZ Release of Liability Wavier is ubiquitous at US DZs. I can’t help but wonder if they are truly helping the sport by making DZ operations possible, or if they hurt the sport my removing incentives for DZs to provide the safest equipment, service, and training.

I note with interest that in the sport skydiving industry, it seems that ONLY the DZs demand that their sport customers sign waivers. Yes, tandem gear manufacturers may require waivers, but I am referring to the sport customers, not the tandem tourists. Manufacturers of sport canopies, sport harness/containers, and AADs all are able to operate profitably without customer waivers despite their obvious risk exposure.

How might the waivers be hurting the sport? Well, by providing a degree of protection to the DZ from suits, some of the incentive to provide the best and safest equipment, service, and training is removed. For example,

-- the National Transportation Safety Board is concerned about the quality of the aircraft and the pilots being used by some DZs (http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2008/080916.html ).

-- Best that I can tell, there are damned few (if any) civilian DZs using computer simulation with hanging harness and virtual reality for canopy control in FJCs (even though this product is available http://www.sportparasim.com/).

-- Some DZs have weak or absent structured instruction between the end of AFF and the A-license.

-- Some DZs put multiple students on the same radio frequency on the same load. This creates the deadly potential of giving instructions to a student which are mistakenly followed by another student…which could be deadly.

-- I could go on and on….

If the DZs were less insulated from liability claims, I bet that they would try harder to leave no stone unturned to provide safe equipment, service, and training.

Yes, I know that a DZ has assets which would be attractive as a deep pocket for suits. However, I suspect that there are ways to compartmentalize the ownership of assets to make them collectively less vulnerable.

I think that the DZs started down this path long enough ago, that most of us don’t remember a time before liability waivers, and therefore don’t question the negative effect of the wavier on the sport that so many of us love.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

In the US without a waiver there would be no skydiving. Period!!

[MajorDad 0]

Feel free to open your own dropzone and not use a waiver.

Blue ones

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[AggieDave 6]

All of your concerns would be great to address, IF DZs could afford all the latest and greatest gear. If a DZ is having problems keeping its plane in maintance, what makes you think that same DZ has enough money to buy a canopy simulator?

Apparently you have this idea that DZs are hiding behind the waiver and keeping suitcases full of cash for themselves. I don't think you actually understand what the cash flow is like for the typical DZ. I'm not talking about the DeLands, Perris Valley and Eloys of the world. I'm talking about the hundreds of small and average size DZs in the US. I'm talking about the average DZ that is literally a bad winter and an engine rebuild away from going out of business.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wildfan75 1]

I'd rather have someone be scared away because of the liability waiver than have my dz close over some frivolous lawsuit for some guy/girl can't grasp the concept of "flare" and we're found liable because we should have known that he/she had poor upper body strength.

[AggieDave 6]

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than have my dz close over some frivolous lawsuit for some guy/girl can't grasp the concept of "flare"

Sounds like you were on the DZ the day that the AFF first jump student who no flared. This is the one that SWORE we trained her to use her digitude altimeter to flare. The one that only has thousands and hundreds of feet, not even tens of feet. The one we showed in the class and told the students that after they turn onto final they shouldn't look at it again...well, you can imagine the rest of the training. Lets just say its in line with the SIM and the industry norm.

She lightly sprained an ankle and said she would have her lawyer contact the DZ. After reviewing the "release of liability contract" the lawyer never bothered the DZ again. That single stupid whuffo would have put the DZ out of business fighting a frivolous lawsuit if it wasn't for the "waiver."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skyberdyber 0]

Do you think the use of liability waivers is hurting the quality of medical care in the US?
Wait, let me be more constructive.
You can't waiver gross negligence. All business operators are obligated to provide reasonable precautions for the safety of their patrons everywhere. If the plaintiff demonstrates that the defendant knew or should have known equipment, aircraft maintenance, training etc. were faulty or deficient in some manner then they will win a civil lawsuit. If a Doctor is using unsterile instruments that cause an infection and you lose a limb, a waiver would not cover it because instrument sterilization and handling procedures are standardized in the medical industry.
The waiver portion (aka "Agreement not to sue") is only part of the document you sign when jumping at a DZ. The more important part is called the "Assumption of Risk". This is the part that says you understand what your are doing is inherently dangerous and you could be injured, die, or worse and are still doing it voluntarily.
However, when you folks want to pay me a million dollars a year net profit for skydiving, I'll be happy to pay the $250,000 a year in insurance premiums for liability similar to Dr. malpractice and tear up my waivers. BTW, all tandems sign our DZ waiver.

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[korbin 0]

You know my obvious issues with liability waivers from the ridiculously stretched out post somewhere else in this forum.

Liability waivers are fairly necessary and do not hurt the sport in any way, this goes for all things that require them. They create exculpatory, solid evidence against claims caused by someones' neglect or mishap.

Chris et al. are right, without waivers: There would be no skydiving

I believe AAD Manufacturers, Gear manufacturers do not directly relate to your life. You choose the gear you use, buyer beware. Just like you choose cars, guns, foods, drinks, whatever you do in your daily life.

The DZ is directly responsible for bringing you into a harmful situation, you are responsible (or your TM) for getting you out of that harmful situation. You are on their property, their time, with their policies.

Granted you could probably file a claim against a company producing gear, the claim against a DZ because you didn't flare properly and "didn't know" you were supposed to wouldn't be very hard to hold up.

[mrbiceps 0]

In australia waivers dont really mean much. If the dz is negligent and you get hurt you can still sue them. dont know about the usa rules though.

[LouDiamond 1]

Have you ever been to an amusement park? Ever look at the back of the ticket or the fine print? You think they don't try hard to provide as much safety as possible to the customer? Yet they still have "fine print" or signs posted at all entrances. It would be negative for the sport if the waivers went away as there would be a lot less DZs today due to skydivers or their families suing DZs. As it is, people still sue DZs for things that usually can be traced back to being the persons own fault. Blame the lawyers, not the waivers.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[BMFin 0]

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As it is, people still sue DZs for things that usually can be traced back to being the persons own fault. Blame the lawyers, not the waivers.

Blame the court rulings, not the lawyers.

[drdive 0]

No, blame the lawyers!!

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[kj126 0]

We actually had a law student come to jump at our DZ, when they finished the waiver our manifest told them that they had missed a few.
Thats we she replied" I don't agree with those and will not give up those rights".
Manifest started handing back the money for the Tandem and they looked confused, basically told them if they were unwilling to sign they were unwilling to jump.
They ended up signing the waiver and had a good time.

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[skybytch 259]

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Granted you could probably file a claim against a company producing gear

Any well written waiver includes protection for gear manufacturers.

I am responsible for what I put on my back when I choose to leave an aircraft in flight. Period.

If you can't or won't say the same thing, please do the sport and it's gear manufacturers a favor and stay on the ground.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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The DZ Release of Liability Wavier is ubiquitous at US DZs. I can’t help but wonder if they are truly helping the sport by making DZ operations possible, or if they hurt the sport my removing incentives for DZs to provide the safest equipment, service, and training.

I think the paper work I signed for my last season ski pass was about as long as a DZ waiver, and the fine print on each daily lift ticket amounts to the same thing with a lot less verbage - you assume all responsibility for yourself in an environment including natural and man-made obstacles which can kill you.

With less insurance and millions less in revenues I don't think we want DZs being less paranoid than the ski hills.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

Have you ever been to an amusement park? Ever look at the back of the ticket or the fine print? You think they don't try hard to provide as much safety as possible to the customer? Yet they still have "fine print" or signs posted at all entrances. It would be negative for the sport if the waivers went away as there would be a lot less DZs today due to skydivers or their families suing DZs. As it is, people still sue DZs for things that usually can be traced back to being the persons own fault. Blame the lawyers, not the waivers.

Don't forget the insurance companies. After spending tens of thousands of dollars on a minor injury like a broken leg, their bean counters aren't content with the tens of thousands they've collected in premiums and their subrogation department wants to assign blame.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

We actually had a law student come to jump at our DZ, when they finished the waiver our manifest told them that they had missed a few.
Thats we she replied" I don't agree with those and will not give up those rights".
Manifest started handing back the money for the Tandem and they looked confused, basically told them if they were unwilling to sign they were unwilling to jump.
They ended up signing the waiver and had a good time.

We had a group of lawyers come to Skydive Atlanta once and did the same thing. They all sat in the corner in a circle and read through the waiver,scratching out things,didn't like this, didn't like that. It took them about 45 min to fill out their waiver,all the while the DZO was watching them. When they brought the waivers up to the counter Mike tore them all in half and handed the guy new ones and just stood and looked at him. I don't even think he said a word. I think all but one jumped that day.

[pirana 0]

Quote

Quote

As it is, people still sue DZs for things that usually can be traced back to being the persons own fault. Blame the lawyers, not the waivers.

Blame the court rulings, not the lawyers.

Where do you think judges come from? They are lawyers who get to take longer naps.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[klingeme 0]

Quote

The DZ Release of Liability Wavier is ubiquitous at US DZs. I can’t help but wonder if they are truly helping the sport by making DZ operations possible, or if they hurt the sport my removing incentives for DZs to provide the safest equipment, service, and training.

I note with interest that in the sport skydiving industry, it seems that ONLY the DZs demand that their sport customers sign waivers. Yes, tandem gear manufacturers may require waivers, but I am referring to the sport customers, not the tandem tourists. Manufacturers of sport canopies, sport harness/containers, and AADs all are able to operate profitably without customer waivers despite their obvious risk exposure.

How might the waivers be hurting the sport? Well, by providing a degree of protection to the DZ from suits, some of the incentive to provide the best and safest equipment, service, and training is removed. For example,

-- the National Transportation Safety Board is concerned about the quality of the aircraft and the pilots being used by some DZs (http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2008/080916.html ).

-- Best that I can tell, there are damned few (if any) civilian DZs using computer simulation with hanging harness and virtual reality for canopy control in FJCs (even though this product is available http://www.sportparasim.com/).

-- Some DZs have weak or absent structured instruction between the end of AFF and the A-license.

-- Some DZs put multiple students on the same radio frequency on the same load. This creates the deadly potential of giving instructions to a student which are mistakenly followed by another student…which could be deadly.

-- I could go on and on….

If the DZs were less insulated from liability claims, I bet that they would try harder to leave no stone unturned to provide safe equipment, service, and training.

Yes, I know that a DZ has assets which would be attractive as a deep pocket for suits. However, I suspect that there are ways to compartmentalize the ownership of assets to make them collectively less vulnerable.

I think that the DZs started down this path long enough ago, that most of us don’t remember a time before liability waivers, and therefore don’t question the negative effect of the wavier on the sport that so many of us love.

When I was a Whitewater rafting guide (and kayak instructor) up north, we had a similar waiver that every customer had to sign before putting them in a boat.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[NotBond 0]

This is interesting. As a total newbie, I was astounded with the FIVE pages of waivers I had to initial. In case of an accident, I can't even pronounce the name of the DZ now!

It's a sad state, really. Too many people think litigation is a get-rich-quick thing, and many lawyers encourage that mindset. In my mind, if I do something stupid, because I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THE INTRUCTOR, and break my body, well, that's my own damn fault. No swense punishing the DZ because I was a moron. But, I think I'm in the minority with that way of thinking.

Now, if the DZ staff screwed up, that changes things a bit. But still, does it make sense to sue them into oblivion? Get your medical and lost wages paid and move on! Taking them for everything they got only shuts them down for everyone, or contributes to higher fees.

Just my .02

Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

[speuci 0]

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No, blame the lawyers!!

I always get in arguments with my buddies about who can sue and when. What my friends don't seem to get (and I do because I'm an attorney) is that the first question is not *can I win a lawsuit* but rather *do I have atleast a shred of an argument such that I can make it expensive for the other side*.

Ergo, blame the lawyers.


I did my AFF1 my second year of lawschool. I read the waiver and laughed to myself. No waiver is bulletprrof because certain things cannot be waived by contract. The waiver I had was so outrageous I figured (if need be) a good lawyer could get most of it severed.

The reality is that almost any provision of any waiver can be challenged in court. Challenge is often sufficient to get settlement leverage.

[skybytch 259]

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The waiver I had was so outrageous I figured (if need be) a good lawyer could get most of it severed.

I'm sure the dzo at Hollister will be pleased to read this...

[billvon 2,435]

>Get your medical and lost wages paid and move on!

See, that's the thing. The waiver says you won't be able to do that. The video we play with the waiver makes that clear; a lawyer says something like:

"You have to read this very carefully, because signing it means you will not be able to recover any money for any injury you sustain. If you are injured skydiving, this could become the most important piece of paper you ever signed."

Fortunately, that happens BEFORE the jump, so you can decide not to jump if you don't want to take that sort of risk.

>In my mind, if I do something stupid, because I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION
>TO THE INTRUCTOR, and break my body, well, that's my own damn fault.

Right. Just keep in mind that you may end up paralyzed from the neck down because the guy on the radio made a mistake - and you won't be able to collect any money from them. Again, that's a risk/reward decision you have to make _before_ you sign the waiver.

[NotBond 0]

Quote

Quote

No, blame the lawyers!!

I always get in arguments with my buddies about who can sue and when. What my friends don't seem to get (and I do because I'm an attorney) is that the first question is not *can I win a lawsuit* but rather *do I have atleast a shred of an argument such that I can make it expensive for the other side*.

Ergo, blame the lawyers.


I did my AFF1 my second year of lawschool. I read the waiver and laughed to myself. No waiver is bulletprrof because certain things cannot be waived by contract. The waiver I had was so outrageous I figured (if need be) a good lawyer could get most of it severed.

The reality is that almost any provision of any waiver can be challenged in court. Challenge is often sufficient to get settlement leverage.

You are absolutely correct. I should have been more specific. But the mindset is the same - drag them into court to get SOMETHING, even if it's because of your own foolishness.

And, yes, if I was paralyzed due to an radio error from the ground, I would consider taking anything/everything I could - but I HOPE I can put things into perspective and not get greedy. never having been in that position, I can't say.....I like to think I'm a better person then that.....'course if the family sues, what can I do to stop them? It's almost a lose/lose situation with anyone that could be considered liable.

The Batman capes that say "Use of this cape does not enable user to actually fly" don't have that on there to take up extra space....!

Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

[skybytch 259]

What hurts the sport are people who won't take 100% responsibility for what might happen to them if they throw themselves at the ground at a high rate of speed, trusting only some fabric and lines to save them.

The good thing about this thread is that those of us who do take 100% responsibility for our choice to jump out of an airplane can see who we don't want to jump with, and dzo's can see who they might not want jumping out of their airplanes.

The sad thing is that so many people apparently think that someone else should pay for their choices if shit should happen to them.