"Square" Parachutes

[JohnRich 4]

Please vote in the poll and help settle a disagreement.

I contend that the term "square" parachute is generally meant to refer to any ram-air parachute design, regardless of the actual shape of the parachute. Square parachutes are actually rectangular, so the geometric term isn't exactly true. But it's been widely accepted anyway over many decades now, to mean a ram-air parachute, in contrast to "round" parachutes which were their predecessor. So it's not so much the actual geometric shape of the parachute, but rather the design, that this term represents.

Another person believes that elliptical ram-air parachutes should not be called "square" parachutes, because they are not square, nor are they rectangular. But then, what about semi-elliptical parachutes - are they square or non-square? What about the trapezoidal Aqutron parachute - it's neither square nor elliptical, yet it's still a ram-air.

And if elliptical chutes are not "square" in the geometric sense, then other ram-air chutes aren't really square either, since they're rectangular in shape. And if you use this geometric definition in the pure sense like this, then there is no such thing as a square parachute in popular use today.

Furthermore, a square is a flat two-dimensional shape, whereas a parachute is a complex three-dimensional shape, with curves. It only appears rectangular when viewed from above or below. From other angles, it takes on different shapes. So "square" is really an inadequate way of describing a parachute's shape. Yet it's still a generally recognized word used to describe what we now jump.

So, I contend that the use of the term "square parachute" should just refer to any of the common ram-air chutes in service today, with a roughly rectangular shape, regardless of their actual precise geometric shape. Just because the ends are rounded-off, doesn't mean it's not "square".

What do you think the term "square" parachute means?

[skyjumpenfool 2]

First came the round parachute (modern day)

Then, along came the High Performance rounds like the Para Commanders (PC's) and such.

The next progression was the ram air "Square" canopies. Remember, the early squares appeared to be square. These quickly morphed into more "rectangular" in shape.

Elliptical canopies, although evolving from the square/rectangular canopies, marks the next generation of parachutes and IMO should be considered a category in its self.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Beachbum 0]

too much free time ... we gotta help find you a job ...

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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I contend that ...... Square parachutes are actually rectangular, so the geometric term isn't exactly true.....

That being said, Elliptical canopies are not really a true ellipse?? Oh, oh! I think we've really opened a can of worms now???

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[wmw999 2,126]

"Round" and "square" served to differentiate now-obsolete (mostly) categories. I'd suggest that we stop using "square" and use "airfoil," which we can then quibble about.

Problem solved. Each of us, by not using "square," becomes part of the solution.

Even in the 1970's the high-performance rounds (yeah, we called them high-performance ) weren't round, and the squares were already rectangular.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 0]

I agree with you. To you and me, "square" is a generic term to mean any ram-air. Just as Jello, Kleenex Fridge (Fridgidaire) and (to some) Coke are generics that are no longer brand-specific.

Our opinions may be generational: colored by the fact that you & I started jumping on rounds, back when only about half the sport canopies in the sky were ram-air. So, "square" was an easy comparative descriptor, used mainly to distinguish ram-airs from rounds. Besides, in 1976 if I'd tossed out the terms "ram-air" or "air foil", I'd have probably got beat up.

Kids these days. It would never occur to them that parachutes come in any shape other than square. I mean ram-air. Whatever.

[councilman24 36]

"Rounds" are drag canopies(some squirting air out the back for drive, "squares" are ram air canopies creating aerodynamic lift. I give you rogollo wings (dactyls, deltas) are a different class.

Elipticals are just different "wings", which by tradition skydivers call "squares". Wings on a glider and wings on a space shuttle (hmm also a glider) are all wings even though vastly different. We just call all wings "squares".

For whuffos I use square, for skydivers I use ram air because we "know" they were never square. Hmm I don't think any was ever truely square, was there?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Andy9o8 0]

Hm. Romanticism vs. Semanticism. Classic.

[councilman24 36]

Huh?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Andy9o8 0]

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Huh?

Heh, heh. Sorry. Just getting cute with language.
Romanticism = the way Back in the Day we (and you, too) all called them squares.
Semanticism = Giving the canopy a more accurate descriptor.

(So, No, I'm not having an "eDo onward" moment...)

[councilman24 36]

Okay, too deep for me this afternoon. I knew what the words ment but not what you ment.

Is to Slyde going to become a verb? As in Slyde into the abyss.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ficus 0]

A Paradactyl is a round.

A Velocity is a square.

IMO

[pchapman 262]

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A Paradactyl is a round.IMO

Not the way it stalls and collapses!
You try it sometime, I have.

But anyway, from looking at other threads I will agree with what I expect to be John Rich's unstated premise:

Captain_Stan likes to use words to mean things in ways slightly different than most people do, and strongly defends his interpretation to the exclusion of other possible meanings.

I'll just move along now...

[kawisixer01 0]

so what do we call the paratrooper's t-11 canopies? they're square in shape.

[mswallin13 0]

"Other" for me.

I've routinely used square in both ways depending on context. Either the older meaning as in...

"Round is sound, square if you dare."

or the more contemporary context when it was clear that only ram-air canopies were being discussed as in...

"Is a Spectre a square canopy?"
"No, but a Falcon is."

Matthew Wallin
C-37899

[JohnRich 4]

Is there an element of elitism or snobbery in the poll results? Are the elliptical parachute voters just snobs that don't want to be associated with average rectangular parachute flyer's, and want to differentiate themselves to stand out from the crowd?

It kind of reminds me of a girl I was talking to; when I asked her if she was in college, she said; "No, I'm in the Master's program." Huh? If you're studying for a Master's degree, then you're in college! I think there was snobbery in that answer too - she wanted to differentiate herself from those lowly BA degree folks.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Is there an element of elitism or snobbery in the poll results? Are the elliptical parachute voters just snobs that don't want to be associated with average rectangular parachute flyer's, and want to differentiate themselves to stand out from the crowd?

As I mentioned above, I think it's more of a generational thing. To you and me, squares means all ram-airs, and is used to differentiate from non-ram-airs. But people who only know ram-airs will tend to use terms to differentiate between types of ram-airs.
Nowadays, more active skydivers than not started after non-ram-airs had pretty much disappeared from the sport skydiving scene - thus the poll results reflect this.

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It kind of reminds me of a girl I was talking to; when I asked her if she was in college, she said; "No, I'm in the Master's program." Huh? If you're studying for a Master's degree, then you're in college! I think there was snobbery in that answer too - she wanted to differentiate herself from those lowly BA degree folks.

I suspect that was more because, being (I assume) younger than you, she was less sophisticated in the use of language, tending to use and interpret certain terms more literally than older people do. The older I get, the more I notice this in teenagers and very young adults (like my own kids and their friends). I suspect, in her mind, "college" had the narrow definition of "undergraduate-level" - i.e., differentiated from the term "grad school" - not realizing that you intended the term to be more broadly defined.

[ficus 0]

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A Paradactyl is a round.IMO

Not the way it stalls and collapses!
You try it sometime, I have.

I have jumped a Paradactyl. It only stalls and collapses if you are foolish enough to try to flare it!

[crustySCSA69 0]

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A Paradactyl is a round.IMO

Not the way it stalls and collapses!
You try it sometime, I have.

I have jumped a Paradactyl. It only stalls and collapses if you are foolish enough to try to flare it!

I watched one of Visions land his dactyl at Perris, flaring when he was a foot or 2 off the ground...
before his knees finished flexing down, the canopy was a completely wad on the ground behind him ... scariest thing I ever saw on a landing

a Dactly is in NO way, shape or form, a round ..

to answer the poll, I choose Other..

anything but a 26' round with no holes (except a blow hole in the top to eliminate inversions) is a poorly designed, RubeGoldberg engineered piece of junk that has sacrificed everything about a parachute (opening speed/opening shock/flying speed) for simple flying speed.... and all you boobs have drank the KoolAid (TM Registered)

[popsjumper 2]

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Is there an element of elitism or snobbery in the poll results?

Probably.
I voted anything not "round" is "square"...a generic descriptive term.

Now, T-bows and the like, as mentioned earlier...THERE'S a different category for you!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fasted3 0]

Pi R Squared?
No!
CB R Squared!
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
Pi R NOT Squared

Corn Bread R Squared

Pi R Round

I hope this clears it up for y'all.

But what do I know?

[captain_stan 0]

That sounds so junior-high-school Peter.

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I'll just move along now...

Yeah, you’d probably like to slam me and then disappear. But wouldn’t it be more interesting to stick around and hear the other side to the OP’s assertion?

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Captain_Stan likes to use words to mean things in ways slightly different than most people do

That’s because I give popular opinion less credibility than the FAA, the USPA, manufacturers, and recognized experts. Some people get really sensitive just because I disagree with their opinion. Having the approval of “most people” is probably not as important to me as it is to you.

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and strongly defends his interpretation to the exclusion of other possible meanings.

Are your feelings hurt because I don’t agree with you on everything? Get over it. I’m not offended by the opinions of others, but sometimes by their denial that some issues (like this one) are strictly a matter of opinion, and they will never be able to prove how right they are or how wrong I am. So then they turn it into a popularity contest, which doesn't interest me.

FYI Peter, the 2009 SIM is available now. You’re an instructor; have you even read it? The USPA no longer makes any reference to “square parachute” or “square canopy.” The only such usage in the SIM can be found in an 18-year-old FAA doc that the FAA admits is outdated. But you will find the term “ram-air” in the glossary and elsewhere. Section 5-3 explains that “Different planforms (square vs. elliptical) will exhibit very different handling characteristics” [exactly quoted here, including parentheses]. I was bashed for making that same assertion earlier, because that terminology is not popular with all skydivers, yet.

But this is indeed what we are currently teaching students and licensed skydivers. This is not just my opinion or even just the USPA’s; current FAA docs, Poynter’s PMII, and many manufacturers are using the same language. The part that you don't get, Peter, is that I don’t really care what terminology the rest of you guys use; I just think words like “elitist” and “snob” are not appropriate to describe those of us who are willing to change and adapt with the sport. In fact, I think that name-calling itself is a form of elitism. I can understand why others use older terminology, and I think that whether we admit it or not, we can understand each other even when we use different words to describe the same thing. I’m guessing that back in the day, the round pilots and ram-air pilots were also adversarial. It had a negative influence on our sport then and still does today.

[brettski74 0]

I think it's neither.

Firstly, "square" doesn't necessarily refer to a tetragon with equal length sides and right angled corners. It can also refer to a corner being right-angled, as in construction, woodwork, etc. I have a square amongst my woodworking tools. It is triangular in shape. [Crazy]

Secondly, as a living language, English is continuously evolving. What square meant 30 years ago may not be the same as what it means today.

Thirdly, I think it depends on the context and the person speaking. I've heard discussions referring to square parachutes that includes things such as the katana, the velocity, etc. I've also heard a rigger explain that one of the main differences between the Sabre and Sabre2 is that the former is square whereas the latter is semi-elliptical. Bottom line is that I know very few people who still jump rounds, and even then, it's things like the Para Commander, rather than a "true" round like a T10. As others have alluded, for the majority of active jumpers today, the possibility of jumping out of an aircraft with anything other than a ram-air canopy is at best, a novelty, or at worst never even enters their minds, so to apply a descriptive word like "square" to describe a canopy when their brain is likely to associate "canopy" with nothing more than the set of ram-air canopies available and still jumped today, "square" has got to imply something else specific about the canopy beyond it's being a ram-air canopy, otherwise why not just say canopy.

Personally, I prefer the term "ram-air".

In terms of semantics versus romantics... No matter which side of this debate you are getting caught up in semantics. If you understand the point a person is trying to make, then who cares what you think "square" should mean?

[pchapman 262]

Hey Captain_Stan,

If it helps, I should mention I recently taught a couple long seminars that I created on canopy flight & control, that make use of my aerospace engineering background -- so I'm quite aware of the lack of clarity of some terminology in skydiving, and the differences between technical aerospace meanings of terms and their common usage.

So I could be pretty self-righteous and annoying too, if I set my mind to it!

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I can understand why others use older terminology, and I think that whether we admit it or not, we can understand each other even when we use different words to describe the same thing.

That sounds good to me. Nice to see something that we could take to be conciliatory. John Rich may have started a couple threads on terminology because previously you seemed imply your interpretation was the only possible one and that everyone should have anticipated your interpretation.

[captain_stan 0]

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may have started a couple threads on terminology because previously you seemed to imply

May have? Seemed to imply? My failure to subscribe to the beliefs of others and my defense of my own ideas hardly justifies calling my character into question. Some of "you guys" have thin skin.

BTW, Nice olive branch!