AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds

[nicknitro71 0]

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That is what I think people shoud do, not go above their risk threshold because they have an AAD, but some people do exactly that.

About this:

That is what I think people shoud do, not go above their risk threshold because they have a reserve, but some people do exactly that.

Without a reserve your threshold is 4 way jump. You did go over it several times because you had a reserve.

Again you make a definite distinction between a reserve and an AAD, some people put them at the same level hence the addition of the AAD does increase their threshold, very much like the reserve increased yours in the past.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Ron 7]

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If you hand known there was a 1/500 (probably higher as you 6 mals on THIS main are prabably on less than 3000 jumps right?) chance of an unrecoverable malfunction when you purchased this main would you have purchased it?

If I could say it was the main's fault, I would not have bought it. (BTW I sat down and thought about it...I think I only have 6 mals total. One I did not pack on a different type of canopy, and one was a line knot).

However, I know people with tons of jumps on the same type of main with no problem...so that makes me think it is packing.

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would you have let the fact that you have a reserve be part of that decision process?

Hell no. I plan on landing the main. In fact I have been thinking of getting a new type of main just to have a less sensitive canopy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

What I consider acceptable risk didn't change.

Let me try it this way:

The alternative to my opinion is that it is OK to tell someone that thinks a skydive is too risky for them, go ahead and do it, youll be fine because you have a Cypres. Is that OK?

Or, telling yourself, "Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a Cypres, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

Or as a load organizer allowing 10 of 50 jumpers to get it on the 50-way that don't have the skills for it because they have AAD's. is that OK? Chances are very good they will all get canopies over their heads, but chances are good they will be running into each other, going high and low, etc. But if it all about the numbers, the numbers look good.

Derek

[nicknitro71 0]

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Or, telling yourself, "Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a Cypres, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

Derek, this happens every time I jump my main sport canopy:

"Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a reserve, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

Yes it's OK to me. I don't trust my main to save my life but I do trust my reserve to do so even though I know it can malfunction.

Again Derek you have to acknoledge that some people put the reserve and an AAD on the same plane. You don't have to agree but it does not make them any more right or wrong than you. You happen to weight more the reserve than the AAD, some people weight them the same. Both are safety devices that only come into play if something goes not as planned.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[kevinwhelan 0]

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Derek, this happens every time I jump my main sport canopy:

"Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a reserve, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

Yes it's OK to me. I don't trust my main to save my life but I do trust my reserve to do so even though I know it can malfunction.

I think there is a huge difference in the two backup devices being discussed here. A reserve allowes a skydiver a second attempt to do something, get a landable parachute over his/her head.This is after the skydiver has done what they should do, but for whatever reason need to try again.
An AAD is not of the same type it only comes into play when the skydiver has failed to do what they should do.
Derek is saying , I think, that if you will take a greater risk because you reason that in the unlikely event that you can't handle the situation you find yourself in the AAD will handle it for you that you should rethink your judgment.
A reserve wont do anything for you you must deploy it, it would be fairer to compare an AAD with an RSL

just my reading of the thread

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a reserve, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

I don't think you should go beyond your personnal limit of risk. If the main is too risky, for example, too small, a reserve doesn't off set that risk. If you are willing to jump the canopy, then it is not too risky or past your personal limit for risk.

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Again Derek you have to acknoledge that some people put the reserve and an AAD on the same plane. You don't have to agree but it does not make them any more right or wrong than you. You happen to weight more the reserve than the AAD, some people weight them the same. Both are safety devices that only come into play if something goes not as planned.

I understand that and disagree.

Who thinks it is OK to convince a jumper to go do a jump they feel is too risky for them because they have a cypres? What I mean by this is they didn't have a Cypres, you would agree with them that the jump is too risky for them.

I would never tell a jumper, "I know you think that 400-way is too risky for you, but you have a Cypres, you'll be fine, go ahead and get on the 400-way" Who thinks that telling a jumper this is OK?

I think a 30-way head down dive is too risky for me, for several reasons. The amount of risk on the dive is more than I am willing to accept. Should I go ahead and go do a 30-way head down dive because I have a Cypres? Chances are I'll land under a open canopy, right? Is this all that matters?

You didn't answer my questions:

The alternative to my opinion is that it is OK to tell someone that thinks a skydive is too risky for them, go ahead and do it, youll be fine because you have a Cypres. Is that OK?

Yes/No

Or, telling yourself, "Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a Cypres, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

Yes/No

Or as a load organizer allowing 10 of 50 jumpers to get it on the 50-way that don't have the skills for it because they have AAD's. is that OK?

Yes/No

These are the alternative to what I am suggesting.

Derek

[MWGemini 0]

Just out of curiosity, why don't you trust your main?

Granted, I'm new to the sport and have a low number of jumps, but I've yet to have a mal, and I'd like to keep it that way. To be honest, I might even feel safer jumping a BASE rig out of a plane than a skydiving rig.

Mike

Edit: Yes, I know that FAA requires a reserve and that BASE rigs are not TSOd, and can not be taken out of a plane in flight. I'm speaking hypothetically here.

[jlmiracle 7]

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I don't trust my main to save my life but I do trust my reserve to do so even though I know it can malfunction.

So why jump the main and not just the reserve?

I don't get in cars with people I don't trust, and I certainly wouldn't jump a main canopy that I don't trust.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jumper03 0]

basically - for me, this whole thing is coming down to one truth -

if you're not willing to accept the fact that even if you do everything right you could die on this jump, then don't get on the plane.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Hooknswoop 19]

No one wants to answer my questions “yes”?


Why an AAD is different from a reserve.

An AAD will hopefully deploy your reserve in the event you are unable or forget to pull your main or reserve.

A reserve is there in case your main fails or you are unable to deploy your main.

I think it is a good idea to endeavor to avoid situations where you might need an AAD. This means not going on skydives you feel have more risk than you are willing to accept. If you do go on a skydive that has more risk than you are willing to accept because you have an AAD, you are accepting that you are placing yourself in a situation where the likelihood that you will need an AAD to save you is more than you are willing to accept.

I don’t think it is wise for jumpers to put themselves in situations that carry a higher than they are willing to accept risk level, accepting, for example, a chance of a collision that will cause them to need an AAD.

If I suspend 50 pounds from to ropes, each able to hold 50 pounds, then one rope is a back up in the event one fails. If I put 100 pounds under the same 2 ropes, I no longer have any back up rope.

If a jumper does a jump that exceeds their personal acceptable risk threshold because they have an AAD, the AAD is no longer a back up, like the second rope is no longer a back up.

Derek

[Frenchy68 0]

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To be honest, I might even feel safer jumping a BASE rig out of a plane than a skydiving rig.

Why? Because it opens faster?
You can still pack a mal on a BASE rig.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[billvon 2,435]

>Why? Because it opens faster?
>You can still pack a mal on a BASE rig.

Of course. But that's very rare, because people know that it _is_ their own canopy and pack accordingly. Imagine how few deaths we would have due to malfunctions if people treated their mains as if they had no reserve, rather than stuff it into the bag saying "hey, that's why I have a reserve!"

[Frenchy68 0]

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Imagine how few deaths we would have due to malfunctions if people treated their mains as if they had no reserve, rather than stuff it into the bag saying "hey, that's why I have a reserve!"

Totally agree. So the idea that jumping a BASE rig makes you much safer holds only because of the method and quality of the pack job, not the rig itself that much.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[kelpdiver 2]

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So if 90% of CYPRES fires are due to human error and not getting knocked out....Does it not make sense to look at the decision making process and training that led to the problem?

But we're really not talking about those people. Looking at the Airtec save log, the last years are dominated by students, tandems, and hard pulls that became no pulls. Granted, they've claim to only include events that they thought would be fatalities otherwise, excluding those where the jumper claimed their hand was on silver when it fired.

These threads center around a supposedly large number of people who enter diveplans above their head because of the security blanket provided by the AAD. If present, it's a problem, but it's a very different problem.

[kallend 1,649]

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How many mals on your main John? And how many jumps do you have on it?

1510 jumps on my main (Stiletto), no malfunctions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Want to take a go at my hypothetical questions a few posts up?

Derek

[Ron 7]

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These threads center around a supposedly large number of people who enter diveplans above their head because of the security blanket provided by the AAD. If present, it's a problem, but it's a very different problem.

True, but I was answering the question asked.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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These threads center around a supposedly large number of people

I never said large number. I said too many.

Derek

[kallend 1,649]

You can knock yourself out on the door on any skydive, even a solo, if the plane hits turbulence at the wrong time. There is no such thing as a risk free skydive.

I evaluate the risk I am willing to take based on my risk tolerance and my knowledge of my own equipment - all of my equipment. I don't exclude consideration of any part of my rig in my evaluation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

You didn't answer my questions:

The alternative to my opinion is that it is OK to tell someone that thinks a skydive is too risky for them, go ahead and do it, youll be fine because you have a Cypres. Is that OK?

Yes/No

Or, telling yourself, "Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a Cypres, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

Yes/No

Or as a load organizer allowing 10 of 50 jumpers to get it on the 50-way that don't have the skills for it because they have AAD's. is that OK?

Yes/No

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You can knock yourself out on the door on any skydive, even a solo, if the plane hits turbulence at the wrong time. There is no such thing as a risk free skydive.

And I never said different and I did say you should wear an AAD. We agree here.

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I evaluate the risk I am willing to take based on my risk tolerance and my knowledge of my own equipment - all of my equipment. I don't exclude consideration of any part of my rig in my evaluation.

Would you make a jump where you felt that there was a high chance you would be knocked out since you have an AAD?

Derek

[nicknitro71 0]

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The alternative to my opinion is that it is OK to tell someone that thinks a skydive is too risky for them, go ahead and do it, youll be fine because you have a Cypres. Is that OK?

Yes/No

No

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Or, telling yourself, "Self, I know that this dive goes what beyond what I think is safe, but I have a Cypres, so I'll go ahead and do it anyway". Is that OK?

Yes/No

Yes, I would not get on a 400-500 way without an AAD and if I was doing so in a country where allowed I would rig out a BASE rig with only one BASE canopy and an AAD set to fire at 500'. I then would pull around 800'.

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Or as a load organizer allowing 10 of 50 jumpers to get it on the 50-way that don't have the skills for it because they have AAD's. is that OK?

Yes/No

No

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Just out of curiosity, why don't you trust your main?

I don't trust many things... I don't trust my main to save my life. My main is just for fun if it works. I would not jump my main as sole parachute. It's a 9 cell elliptical heavily loaded. Just a single line twist could put me in an unrecoverable flat spin. I trust more my reserve and my BASE rig to save my life even though I know they both can malfunction.

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So why jump the main and not just the reserve?

Because in the US we cannot jump a single parachute system. Again if allowed I would jump my BASE rig most of the time and pull at 500'. If you mean why I jump the main I do and not a different canopy like a reserve or BASE as main, well because my main when it works it's fun. By the way I have not cut my current main away yet.

One last thing. I would give up a reserve for an AAD in a 400-500 way. I'd pick a BASE rig geared out with an AAD over a dual system without an AAD if I had to make the choice.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The alternative to my opinion is that it is OK to tell someone that thinks a skydive is too risky for them, go ahead and do it, youll be fine because you have a Cypres. Is that OK?

Yes/No

No

Then we agree.

Some people apparently think it is OK for someone that feels a jump is too risky, to go ahead and do it anyway because they have a Cypres.

Derek

[nicknitro71 0]

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Then we agree.

On that point only

I would never push anyone to do something they feel is beyond their threshold.

The point we don't agree is that an AAD does change my threshold (as well as others) on some jumps, very much like my reserve does.

I would not do CRW without a reserve.

I would not do a 400-500 without an AAD.

I would do most of my jumps with my BASE rig.

I would not BASE jump with my sport main canopy or use it as sole canopy.

To summarize gear DOES change my risk acceptance threshold.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Hooknswoop 19]

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To summarize gear DOES change my risk acceptance threshold.

I am willing to accept a certain amount of risk. Let's say I could put a number on it, 1 to 10, ten being the most risk. Say I am willing to accept a 8. What gear I have on my back does nothing to change how much risk I am willing to accept. I don't understand how an AAD can make someone willing to take more risk. I am willing to accept 8 on a scale of 1 to 10, an AAD does not change that.

If I am an 8 on the risk scale and I feel a 3-way head down dive is a 9, then it is too risky for me to do. I don't think an AAD makes the dive any less risky. There is the same chance of something going wrong, I just have a better chance of surviving if something goes wrong.

Derek

[nicknitro71 0]

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I don't understand how an AAD can make someone willing to take more risk.

Again Derek and I said this over and over again. You said yourself that you would not do CRW without a reserve. So the addition of a reserve makes you willing to take more risks, i.e. doing CRW.

The same goes for me and the 500 way. It's a very complex and dangerous jump. With an AAD I am willing to take the chance of getting knock unconscious without it I just say no to the jump.

Memento Audere Semper

903