My crazy skydiving instructor...

[tumbleroll 0]

He never gives me a straight answer to anything.

Last week he posed a scenario - "your main canopy looks like its opened OK, he says, "but begins to stall at the smallest toggle movement - how would you react? what would you do?"

So naturally I say: "If I have altitude I would cut-away!! If not, I would use front and rear risers to steer and land the canopy, preparing for a parachute landing role!"

Well, he didn't seem to think much of that answer. He told me to spend some time thinking about my answer, which I did, and I still can't see why that was wrong!

[Jbag 0]

i'm not going to argue your instructors teaching method, but here is why if you used your rear risers to try and land it when you are stalling it with toggle pull, the toggles are connected to the risers, that will cause any slight rear riser input to cause the same stall at the same point. and you cannot flare on fronts =D. i can't tell you exactly what would cause your canopy to stall with simple toggle inputs that you wouldnt notice wayyy before the situation got that bad, but it would either be a tension knot or the brake lines are super super super short.

IHYD

[tumbleroll 0]

so ... if you cant use the rear risers because toggle movement causes the canaopy to stall, and as you say the front risers aren't any good to land, then the best option would be to cut away - unless you had no height, in which case you'd make the best of a bad situation - maybe glide the canopy into a landing approach against the wind and prepare for a PLR - ouch! Is this right? This is basically what I said the first time!

[NovaTTT 1]

Is it SSS?

The basic rule is that if you cannot land it safely, don't land it. Know your limits, decision altitudes and hard-deck.

Your instructor may be crazy, but in this instance he's trying to teach you to save your life and/or limbs.

Nova

Edited to add: Your instructor asked you to think about it because your answer, in the first part, is correct but without articulated reason. You don't necessarily have to recognize specific malfunctions (That is a lineover!)(but it sure helps) but you do have to recognize an unlandable parachute and know how to respond.

It's good to review emergencies and EPs frequently. Visualization works for many (most?) of us.

The second part of your answer can be worked on. Ask your instructor, after giving him a good answer to his question, how to handle this situtation below normal cutaway altitude.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Sangi 0]

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so ... if you cant use the rear risers because toggle movement causes the canaopy to stall, and as you say the front risers aren't any good to land, then the best option would be to cut away - unless you had no height, in which case you'd make the best of a bad situation - maybe glide the canopy into a landing approach against the wind and prepare for a PLR - ouch! Is this right? This is basically what I said the first time!

How can you flare with front risers? What you do is you increase the angle of attack of the canopy and it starts to lose altitude quicker and gain speed, if you tried flaring like that, you'd be fucked up for a long time...

Personally, if I had enough alti, I'd cut away, if I didn't I wouldn't be pulling much with the toggles or the rear risers and if I didn't have some shit like power lines or buildings or trees in front of me, I would just try to absorb the landing impact shock with my legs without any flaring...

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[Andy9o8 0]

I have the same respectful curiosity as with the last thread you started: why such elementary instruction at your jump numbers (60, per your profile)?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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He never gives me a straight answer to anything.


Well, he didn't seem to think much of that answer. He told me to spend some time thinking about my answer, which I did, and I still can't see why that was wrong!

Maybe he doesn't know the answer either and was hoping you could help.

There are many different styles of instruction, but I avoid the use of questions that stump the students. It's usually frustrating and demoralizing for the student. Instead, I use questions to:

1- Involve the student more actively in the learning process.
2-Reinforce what he has been taught.
3- Allow the student to practice decision making.
4- Use peer competition to boost learning.
5- Check that the student has learned and understands the material being presented.

If a question I ask confuses the student, I know I need to backup in my lesson plan and teach better. It's excellent feedback and it's not the student's fault.
In your situation, I feel learning has not occurred. Maybe that was the instructor's intent. Is there maybe a personality clash between the two of you?

As far as your original question, Hell, I don't know what's wrong with the canopy. I do know that I'll do a control check soon after opening. If it was presenting those problems, I would cutaway and use my reserve.

[Jbag 0]

if its a line over and i was flying strait i would cut the brake line and land on rears, but thats just me trying to prevent myself from cutting away for as long as possible :)

IHYD

[catfishhunter 1]

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if its a line over and i was flying strait i would cut the brake line and land on rears, but thats just me trying to prevent myself from cutting away for as long as possible :)

? I hope that was a joke.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Jbag 0]

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if its a line over and i was flying strait i would cut the brake line and land on rears, but thats just me trying to prevent myself from cutting away for as long as possible :)

? I hope that was a joke.

uhhh...yeah.

IHYD

[oozzee 0]

your instructor thinks hes a skygod

[JohnMitchell 14]

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if its a line over and i was flying strait i would cut the brake line and land on rears, but thats just me trying to prevent myself from cutting away for as long as possible :)

Naw, cutting away is too easy. I don't play parachute surgeon if I don't have to.

[hackish 8]

I trust my packjob enough. I'd rather fly and land a reserve with all it's lines intact that try to land a compromised main that's had some in-flight hackery added. Yes, potentially your reserve could open in a mal but if your last 499 (10 minute) main packings opened ok the chances are better that your carefully (2h) rigger packed reserve will open beautifully.

-Michael

[tumbleroll 0]

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I have the same respectful curiosity as with the last thread you started: why such elementary instruction at your jump numbers (60, per your profile)?

I've made 60 jumps, and although I have now met all the requirements for my B license I have yet to complete my A license exam. They way they do it in my country is give you a bunch of questions and ask you to go off and discuss them with people at the DZ until you have all the answers. Unfortunaterly, I live many hundred miled from the nearest DZ. So what I have done is use dropzone.com as my 'virtual DZ' . I've put a couple of questions out there and have got some great responses back, Its been extremely useful - At the DZ someone might say. 'X is the right answer', on these forums I'll get a few different answers, some at odds each other, others variations on a theme - its up to me to compare the feedback and work out the best answer myself.

[Jbag 0]

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I have the same respectful curiosity as with the last thread you started: why such elementary instruction at your jump numbers (60, per your profile)?

I've made 60 jumps, and although I have now met all the requirements for my B license I have yet to complete my A license exam. They way they do it in my country is give you a bunch of questions and ask you to go off and discuss them with people at the DZ until you have all the answers. Unfortunaterly, I live many hundred miled from the nearest DZ. So what I have done is use dropzone.com as my 'virtual DZ' . I've put a couple of questions out there and have got some great responses back, Its been extremely useful - At the DZ someone might say. 'X is the right answer', on these forums I'll get a few different answers, some at odds each other, others variations on a theme - its up to me to compare the feedback and work out the best answer myself.

can't wait to see how your skydiving career grows, learning everything off the web is a fantastic idea ;). where do you live?

IHYD

[JohnMitchell 14]

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can't wait to see how your skydiving career grows, learning everything off the web is a fantastic idea ;). where do you live?

Kind of like getting your sex ed on the playground during recess. Nothing but accurate information.

[tumbleroll 0]

I live in Canberra, the capital city of Australia, my nearest DZ is in Syd - about 3 hours drive away

[brettski74 0]

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I live in Canberra, the capital city of Australia, my nearest DZ is in Syd - about 3 hours drive away

Picton, perhaps? I've not jumped there, but there's gotta be some decent instructors there.

As far as your answer, I like the fact that you mentioned altitude awareness in your answer, but I'd want to hear that if you really are that low that cutting away is not an option and that you have the presence of mind to realize this and try to make the best of it, that you're only going to touch the rear risers to land that sucker.

[timmyfitz 0]

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so ... if you cant use the rear risers because toggle movement causes the canaopy to stall, and as you say the front risers aren't any good to land, then the best option would be to cut away - unless you had no height, in which case you'd make the best of a bad situation - maybe glide the canopy into a landing approach against the wind and prepare for a PLR - ouch! Is this right? This is basically what I said the first time!

How can you flare with front risers? What you do is you increase the angle of attack of the canopy and it starts to lose altitude quicker and gain speed, if you tried flaring like that, you'd be fucked up for a long time...

I guess I miss something but where did he mention he was going to flare with the front risers? This is the only mention of front risers in his post.

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and as you say the front risers aren't any good to land

[NovaTTT 1]

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I guess I miss something but where did he mention he was going to flare with the front risers?

From the OP:

"If I have altitude I would cut-away!! If not, I would use front and rear risers to steer and land the canopy, preparing for a parachute landing role!"

He says not necessarily to land only, but to steer and land - it's not clear if he thinks it's OK to give front riser input at landing.

If the parachute is unstable, it's a bad idea to keep it. Since this jumper should be at a relatively high deployment altitude, there is plenty time for EPs.

If not, then it's a bad idea to give the parachute input at a low altitude - fly it in without controls and PLF.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[JohnMitchell 14]

I think a good instructor would have told him exactly what you posted . . . without sending him on an informational treasure hunt.

[timmyfitz 0]

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I guess I miss something but where did he mention he was going to flare with the front risers?

From the OP:

"If I have altitude I would cut-away!! If not, I would use front and rear risers to steer and land the canopy, preparing for a parachute landing role!"

He says not necessarily to land only, but to steer and land - it's not clear if he thinks it's OK to give front riser input at landing.

I was actually responding to someone else's post referring to post #3, not post #1

But I see what you mean about the original post. I read it more like this:

He would use front and rear risers to steer. As for landing the canopy, prepare for a PLF.

[NovaTTT 1]

I read it the same way. The OP, however, at 60 jumps noted, is asking some pretty basic questions. One doesn't presume he means that he won't front-riser in!

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[pickledsolid 0]

Hey man

I jump at picton and managed to get all my info from the booklets i was given after finishing AFF. Also, when you go and do the exam its more of a round table discussion then a strict HSC style test. Check the APF website too, its great to check up on some of the answers.

I also found Phil was easy to approach and ask anything of. always helpful and man, he knows his stuff.

[chuckakers 370]

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He never gives me a straight answer to anything.

Last week he posed a scenario - "your main canopy looks like its opened OK, he says, "but begins to stall at the smallest toggle movement - how would you react? what would you do?"

So naturally I say: "If I have altitude I would cut-away!! If not, I would use front and rear risers to steer and land the canopy, preparing for a parachute landing role!"

Well, he didn't seem to think much of that answer. He told me to spend some time thinking about my answer, which I did, and I still can't see why that was wrong!

Tell him if the canopy wasn't safe to land AND you don't have enough altitude to cut away, you would perfrom a canopy transfer. See what he thinks of that.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX