cloud-nine 0 #1 May 7, 2004 I have had several jumps over the past couple of days and on every load the more experenced jumpers on the load wanted different exit orders. It has been a year since my AFF and I am close to my 100th jump, so I am new but not that new to know where my place should be. Could ya'll refresh my memory on the general guidlines of the exit order. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 May 7, 2004 Depends on the drop zone. Maybe you should discuss this issue with the S&TA for the drop zone in question. As spring turns to summer I find that some of the folks that agreed that freeflyers should go out last during the chill of winter sometimes think freeflyers out first is a better idea during the HOT summer months. I suspect this may have something to do with the proximity to the open door. Hey, if I have to suffer the icy cold winter in the back of the Twin Otter, I should also get to enjoy the open door during the summer. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #3 May 7, 2004 Simple - tell them no or don't jump! There is always the next load...and in the meantime, explain to manifest why you felt unsafe to be on that load and they will take care of it for you._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jas8472 0 #4 May 7, 2004 At my local DZ the exit order is: 1. Flat flyers (largest group to smallest) 2. Free flyers (largest group to smallest) 3. people pulling high 4. AFF 5. Tandoms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alain 0 #5 May 7, 2004 what do you folks consider pulling high ? (just curious) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #6 May 7, 2004 QuoteHey, if I have to suffer the icy cold winter in the back of the Twin Otter, I should also get to enjoy the open door during the summer. Reminds me of my older sister who I shared a room with growing up. We had bunk beds. She set the rules and got the top bunk in the winter months and the bottom bunk in the summer. Bully! ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #7 May 7, 2004 QuoteAt my local DZ the exit order is: 1. Flat flyers (largest group to smallest) 2. Free flyers (largest group to smallest) 3. people pulling high 4. AFF 5. Tandoms For the new student: There's a reason for this type of order. See www.Omniskore.com for a simulator that John Kallend wrote and you can play with the concept (also on John's website, also can link through an article posted right here on DZ.com. The assumption is that uppers are faster than the lower winds and in the same direction. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loflyer 0 #8 May 7, 2004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JeffD 0 #9 May 7, 2004 So I'm a high puller since I pull at 4k ? Nobody has had a problem with it yet. Edit: Sorry, I waveoff at 4k. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Conquest150 0 #10 May 7, 2004 at my dz we consider anyone pulling above 4 a high puller and put them in front of students. anything 4 or below just hop in the line up where you belong. at my dz we are just getting an otter this summer and we did some research and found that most dz's do flat flyers(biggest to smallest) ff's(biggest to smallest) high pullers students tandems tandem with video birdman/skyboards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud-nine 0 #11 May 7, 2004 Ok so I am seeing a consistency in the posts. Flat.....big to small FF......big to small High pulls 4-5K Tandems When I load I tell everybody that I will be solo and belly......sometimes the FF. Who obviously have more experience than I do, sometimes want to go in front of me and sometimes behind me. When you FF you have greater chance of drifting, correct? I was thinking that if a stable belly solo could have a FF in head down or sit that it traveling at 180-200+ with drift could catch the belly or be just above the belly that is pulling......By the way I pull at 3000-3500 depending on the wind speed vs the spot. And like I have said I am relatively knew but I do have a little of experience but I am very eager to learn from you more experienced jumpers to have safer airspace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,413 #12 May 7, 2004 >Ok so I am seeing a consistency in the posts. >Flat.....big to small >FF......big to small >High pulls 4-5K >Tandems Yes, as long as jump run is into the wind (which is normal.) >When you FF you have greater chance of drifting, correct? Not really. There is nothing inherent in freeflying that makes you drift. You can track on your belly (or backslide) as fast as you can do it on your back or in a sit. The issue is that often freeflyers have a lower average skill level than the RW jumpers, and thus are more likely to drift. This is due mainly to the fact that everyone gets instruction in belly-flying (and more importantly not backsliding during AFF) whereas many freeflyers have to learn on their own or with minimal coaching. But an experienced group of 4-way belly flyers vs an equally experienced group of sit flyers isn't likely to drift a lot more or a lot less. >I was thinking that if a stable belly solo could have a FF in head > down or sit that it traveling at 180-200+ with drift could catch the > belly or be just above the belly that is pulling...... That is true, and that's why you need horizontal separation. Fortunately, when you put belly out first, the winds and fall rates conspire to give you much more than normal separation between the last belly and first freefly groups. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites harryskydives 0 #13 May 7, 2004 I noticed that in the mornings when it is really cold i am front float. In the afternoons when it is very hot i seem to be late diver. Hummm. Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #14 May 8, 2004 Quoteat my dz we consider anyone pulling above 4 a high puller and put them in front of students. anything 4 or below just hop in the line up where you belong. at my dz we are just getting an otter this summer and we did some research and found that most dz's do flat flyers(biggest to smallest) ff's(biggest to smallest) high pullers students tandems tandem with video birdman/skyboards If you have an otter the board usually has to go first just due to space restrictions._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #15 May 8, 2004 QuoteAt my local DZ the exit order is: 1. Flat flyers (largest group to smallest) 2. Free flyers (largest group to smallest) 3. people pulling high 4. AFF 5. Tandoms 0. CRW (really high pullers) We get out on the way up, usually a mile or more from the DZ. Depending on exit altitude, the CRW load is often back on the ground before the first freefallers exit. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #16 May 8, 2004 Oh, you're absolutely correct in that there is a popular and unpopular way of doing the exit order and what you've picked up from these threads is essentially standard at -most- drop zones. Since exit order -should- have something to do with loading order, try to be in the right place at the right time. Exiting first to last: Hop & Pops CRW Skysurf RW big to small vRW big to small Students Tandems Where Tracking and BirdMan fits in is something of a question. I'm not really certain a logical argument can be made for either closer to the front or back of the exit line-up since they usually aren't a factor for deployment purposes. Further complicating things would be to know where the tracking/BirdMan area is and how jumprun (including 2nd passes - 180 or 360 for instance) is being flown. That said, there are some drop zones where that is not the case and there actually -may- be a good reason for it (usually not, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt). Anyway, the issue is to actually find out from the S&TA or DZO or somebody that is actually an authority on such things rather than letting some person you do not know and who might not know what the rules are for that particular drop zone.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites thelem 0 #17 May 8, 2004 Quotethe CRW load is often back on the ground before the first freefallers exit. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds very much like the 'big sky theory' to me., assuming that you are exiting or landing underneath where the plane will be dropping jumpers. OK, lets say you are still at 2000' when the freefallers exit, and you are over (or near) the landing area. By the time they get down, you will be near 1000'. Now lets say someone has a malfunction, and for whatever reason isn't under a good canopy by 1000' - they could go straight through your canopy. Now admitedly, this is extremely unlikely, but it is possible. Why not just put the CRW jumpers out on the way down? That way the air is empty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #18 May 8, 2004 QuotePlease correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds very much like the 'big sky theory' to me., assuming that you are exiting or landing underneath where the plane will be dropping jumpers. Actually, it's just timing and distance. If CRW gets out at 7500' or below, by the time the plane gets to altitude we're usually on the ground. We also get out anywhere from 1-4 miles from the DZ depending on the wind and exit altitude. When we go to full altitude we're quite a ways from the DZ and then we're the last on the ground. Keep in mind that a one minute skydive from altitude to opening for freefall is just 1000'-1500' for CRW. QuoteOK, lets say you are still at 2000' when the freefallers exit, and you are over (or near) the landing area. By the time they get down, you will be near 1000'. Now lets say someone has a malfunction, and for whatever reason isn't under a good canopy by 1000' - they could go straight through your canopy. That's when we stay away from the DZ until at or below a deck. For example, the rule at Perris is west of Goetz above 2000'. That keeps the CRW well away from freefall deployments, yet still enough altitude to reach the landing area most of the time. If not, we land out. QuoteNow admitedly, this is extremely unlikely, but it is possible. Why not just put the CRW jumpers out on the way down? That way the air is empty. At the big DZs there can be multiple loads in the air at any time, so the air is never really empty. That's when staying away above a deck is most important. That's also when we have the most chance of landing out, but I'll take a parahike to a canopy/freefall collision anyday. Believe me, CRWdogs are extremely aware of aircraft and jump runs. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #19 May 8, 2004 Quote When you FF you have greater chance of drifting, correct? Incorrect. See HERE for the explanation. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skr 1 #20 May 8, 2004 Bryan Burke wrote some nice articles on this which I put up here: http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/index.html They're about 8 or 10 inches up from the bottom of the page. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud-nine 0 #21 May 8, 2004 Incorrect. See HERE for the explanation. ltdiverThank you so much for that visual, now I understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffD 0 #9 May 7, 2004 So I'm a high puller since I pull at 4k ? Nobody has had a problem with it yet. Edit: Sorry, I waveoff at 4k. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conquest150 0 #10 May 7, 2004 at my dz we consider anyone pulling above 4 a high puller and put them in front of students. anything 4 or below just hop in the line up where you belong. at my dz we are just getting an otter this summer and we did some research and found that most dz's do flat flyers(biggest to smallest) ff's(biggest to smallest) high pullers students tandems tandem with video birdman/skyboards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud-nine 0 #11 May 7, 2004 Ok so I am seeing a consistency in the posts. Flat.....big to small FF......big to small High pulls 4-5K Tandems When I load I tell everybody that I will be solo and belly......sometimes the FF. Who obviously have more experience than I do, sometimes want to go in front of me and sometimes behind me. When you FF you have greater chance of drifting, correct? I was thinking that if a stable belly solo could have a FF in head down or sit that it traveling at 180-200+ with drift could catch the belly or be just above the belly that is pulling......By the way I pull at 3000-3500 depending on the wind speed vs the spot. And like I have said I am relatively knew but I do have a little of experience but I am very eager to learn from you more experienced jumpers to have safer airspace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,413 #12 May 7, 2004 >Ok so I am seeing a consistency in the posts. >Flat.....big to small >FF......big to small >High pulls 4-5K >Tandems Yes, as long as jump run is into the wind (which is normal.) >When you FF you have greater chance of drifting, correct? Not really. There is nothing inherent in freeflying that makes you drift. You can track on your belly (or backslide) as fast as you can do it on your back or in a sit. The issue is that often freeflyers have a lower average skill level than the RW jumpers, and thus are more likely to drift. This is due mainly to the fact that everyone gets instruction in belly-flying (and more importantly not backsliding during AFF) whereas many freeflyers have to learn on their own or with minimal coaching. But an experienced group of 4-way belly flyers vs an equally experienced group of sit flyers isn't likely to drift a lot more or a lot less. >I was thinking that if a stable belly solo could have a FF in head > down or sit that it traveling at 180-200+ with drift could catch the > belly or be just above the belly that is pulling...... That is true, and that's why you need horizontal separation. Fortunately, when you put belly out first, the winds and fall rates conspire to give you much more than normal separation between the last belly and first freefly groups. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryskydives 0 #13 May 7, 2004 I noticed that in the mornings when it is really cold i am front float. In the afternoons when it is very hot i seem to be late diver. Hummm. Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #14 May 8, 2004 Quoteat my dz we consider anyone pulling above 4 a high puller and put them in front of students. anything 4 or below just hop in the line up where you belong. at my dz we are just getting an otter this summer and we did some research and found that most dz's do flat flyers(biggest to smallest) ff's(biggest to smallest) high pullers students tandems tandem with video birdman/skyboards If you have an otter the board usually has to go first just due to space restrictions._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #15 May 8, 2004 QuoteAt my local DZ the exit order is: 1. Flat flyers (largest group to smallest) 2. Free flyers (largest group to smallest) 3. people pulling high 4. AFF 5. Tandoms 0. CRW (really high pullers) We get out on the way up, usually a mile or more from the DZ. Depending on exit altitude, the CRW load is often back on the ground before the first freefallers exit. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #16 May 8, 2004 Oh, you're absolutely correct in that there is a popular and unpopular way of doing the exit order and what you've picked up from these threads is essentially standard at -most- drop zones. Since exit order -should- have something to do with loading order, try to be in the right place at the right time. Exiting first to last: Hop & Pops CRW Skysurf RW big to small vRW big to small Students Tandems Where Tracking and BirdMan fits in is something of a question. I'm not really certain a logical argument can be made for either closer to the front or back of the exit line-up since they usually aren't a factor for deployment purposes. Further complicating things would be to know where the tracking/BirdMan area is and how jumprun (including 2nd passes - 180 or 360 for instance) is being flown. That said, there are some drop zones where that is not the case and there actually -may- be a good reason for it (usually not, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt). Anyway, the issue is to actually find out from the S&TA or DZO or somebody that is actually an authority on such things rather than letting some person you do not know and who might not know what the rules are for that particular drop zone.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelem 0 #17 May 8, 2004 Quotethe CRW load is often back on the ground before the first freefallers exit. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds very much like the 'big sky theory' to me., assuming that you are exiting or landing underneath where the plane will be dropping jumpers. OK, lets say you are still at 2000' when the freefallers exit, and you are over (or near) the landing area. By the time they get down, you will be near 1000'. Now lets say someone has a malfunction, and for whatever reason isn't under a good canopy by 1000' - they could go straight through your canopy. Now admitedly, this is extremely unlikely, but it is possible. Why not just put the CRW jumpers out on the way down? That way the air is empty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #18 May 8, 2004 QuotePlease correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds very much like the 'big sky theory' to me., assuming that you are exiting or landing underneath where the plane will be dropping jumpers. Actually, it's just timing and distance. If CRW gets out at 7500' or below, by the time the plane gets to altitude we're usually on the ground. We also get out anywhere from 1-4 miles from the DZ depending on the wind and exit altitude. When we go to full altitude we're quite a ways from the DZ and then we're the last on the ground. Keep in mind that a one minute skydive from altitude to opening for freefall is just 1000'-1500' for CRW. QuoteOK, lets say you are still at 2000' when the freefallers exit, and you are over (or near) the landing area. By the time they get down, you will be near 1000'. Now lets say someone has a malfunction, and for whatever reason isn't under a good canopy by 1000' - they could go straight through your canopy. That's when we stay away from the DZ until at or below a deck. For example, the rule at Perris is west of Goetz above 2000'. That keeps the CRW well away from freefall deployments, yet still enough altitude to reach the landing area most of the time. If not, we land out. QuoteNow admitedly, this is extremely unlikely, but it is possible. Why not just put the CRW jumpers out on the way down? That way the air is empty. At the big DZs there can be multiple loads in the air at any time, so the air is never really empty. That's when staying away above a deck is most important. That's also when we have the most chance of landing out, but I'll take a parahike to a canopy/freefall collision anyday. Believe me, CRWdogs are extremely aware of aircraft and jump runs. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #19 May 8, 2004 Quote When you FF you have greater chance of drifting, correct? Incorrect. See HERE for the explanation. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #20 May 8, 2004 Bryan Burke wrote some nice articles on this which I put up here: http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/index.html They're about 8 or 10 inches up from the bottom of the page. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud-nine 0 #21 May 8, 2004 Incorrect. See HERE for the explanation. ltdiverThank you so much for that visual, now I understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #22 October 10, 2008 Yeah, thanks. That simulation was really helpful. Not trying to hi-jack, but it makes sense to me that CRW dogs would get out last, no? It just seems that if they're pulling high because they need more working time, and they're flying/falling slower than everyone else, they would get out last, to avoid obvious congestion. Maybe the idea in my head is wrong??PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkBolton 0 #23 October 11, 2008 I think recreational CRW can get out first or last at single-plane dzs in instances when they hop and pop at the same altitude where the rest of the load is exiting. On days when the uppers are low, I ask for a shorter spot. We are still the slowest falling group. If the uppers are high, I leave last and maybe even ride the plane for some time before exiting. Of course, people need to know some other basics, like not riding a streamering main for thousands of feet. I've never been in the air with a very large board, but have heard they can fall much slower than a recreational 8-way. I am glad to see this discussion pop up again. I was at a dz last month where on at least one load a freeflyer exited first in strong uppers, resulting in a very close opening with a belly flyer. And I'll have to agree with whoever said some freeflyers think exit order should be based on temperature. At the same dz I mentioned above freeflyers were sitting in the back of the plane on a hot day and NOT exiting first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #24 October 11, 2008 Quotebut it makes sense to me that CRW dogs would get out last, no? Depends. At Perris they get out first, on their own pass, WAY west of the normal jump run. Then we get to be a bit more comfy as we 180 around for our own jump run (east of the CReW dogs by mucho distance). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 October 12, 2008 QuoteAt the same dz I mentioned above freeflyers were sitting in the back of the plane on a hot day and NOT exiting first. This is good stuff for the other jumpers. It lets them immediately know just who the assholes are at that DZ. Just like the tandem vidiots who just cannot for the life of themselves sit with their tandems. Freakin' bozos.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
