down and dirty! Track away

[Squeak 17]

I was on an 8 way last weekend, one of the guys (a low timer on their 1st 8way) didn't get in and was very low, at break off alti, 4500, the rest of us tracked off. I passed the lowe timer at about 3500 as their canopy was opening (about 20 yards away), another person on the jump tracked on the other side of the low timer just feet away.
It sarced me a little, and frighten the hell out the other jumper. The low timer didn't even know what happend.

The low timer was pulled aside by the load organiser and spoken too.
This was VERY close to being an incident, fortunatly is was a near miss.



How do you LOs and instructors brief for a low diver



My suggestion was to stay in proximity until 6000, then turn and trak until dump height.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Miami 0]

Fly under the formation so it funnels back down to you...

Wait, no...stay close to the formation and keep it in sight until assigned breakoff altitude and track away as planned. Yea, thats it.
Hope this helps...

Miami

[sundevil777 93]

If they start tracking really early because they can't get back up, they might track too far and be under another group. Or they might stop tracking after a while, figuring it was enough, only to find out it was not.

Much better for a low jumper to turn sideways to the formation (easier to look up) while maintaining visual contact and trying to recover altitude, then track away at the planned altitude like everyone else.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Squeak 17]

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Or they might stop tracking after a while, figuring it was enough, only to find out it was not.
.

That's exactly what the low timer did, but they hadn't check their alitude before delpoyment.
They mentioned that they track for "X" number of seconds and then deployed.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Kuper 0]

hmmm.... that happend to a friend of mine 2 weeks ago.
we were in a 8W track dive, and there were few guys how were 'left behind and under'.
while breaking off, you can see in my friend's camra that he was tracking away off heading (god know why), makes a barrel roll, and 1 sec after seeing an opend canopy near him - while still flying. just after 3 days of searching, the canopy man told us it was him there.

me and my friend think it happend because of one or more of these reasons:
1. the lower man didn't track aside, and just pulled behind us.
2. i think my friend SHOULDN'T have done an OFF HEADING track. we were just 8... there wasn't any good reason for that! tell me what you think about it...
3. my friend as a skydiver with 260 jumps should have seen the opend canopy few secs earlier...

anyway - it looks (and felt for him) scary.
there were just 3 frames of the nearby canopy -
attached is the 2nd of those 3. remember it's still during tracking off time...

i'd like to hear more of your thoughts in that issue. it's getting even more important when you want to take people who doesn't have the same level to those track dives (as same as we did).

thanx,
Ori.

http://www.orikuper.printroom.com

[swoopdog 0]

as me being the one who is and accepts 100% of the blame i wish to apologise to you again squeak.... was a complete screw up, i had a complete and utter mental blank and resorted to my basic training knowledge which was to follow what i was told before the jump (break off procedure). I looked up and saw everyone track off (after i had finished my track) and thought i was safe(i did check my alti - but pulled at the wrong due to my position). I'm not trying to defend my self just thought i'd save some honour (which aint much, trust me) - the whole event hit me like a tonne of bricks - I was shattered and screwed for a long time that night.... but I must congratulate everyone at skydive express but more importantly the other 7 people on that jump for not attacking/punishing me and in the end forgiving me. It shows the strength of their character and of skydivers in general. - I have totally learnt from this experience and has made me a better and safer skydiver for the future. BLUER SKIES

If your going to live in FEAR, why live at all!!!!!

[Lindsey 0]

Is 29 jumps correct? If so, isn't that a bit early to be on an 8-way???? You are still responsible for yourself on any jump, but there are reasons (like this example) why people should have a little more experience before going on larger loads. You should not have been allowed on that load, imho.

Maybe the more experienced people on the load also learned something....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[tigra 0]

I think its OK that he was on the jump as long as everyone else on the jump knew he was a newbie. It was their responsibility to look out for him. I mean, its not exactly unpredictable that someone with that little experience might go low on an 8 way.

So, Swoop Dog- don't beat yourself up over it- its really not fair to take on all the blame. You learned something and everything turned out OK. The guys you were on the load with should have known to look FOR you or even flown down to you when you were having trouble. (Now if all 8 of you had less than 50 jumps, I kind of have to question EVERYONE'S judgement!)

[tigra 0]

I absolutely disagree that you were 100% to blame, and I hope the other 7 skydivers on the jump accepted their share of it! As the more experienced jumpers on the load, it was up to them to look out for you and EXPECT you to make some mistakes! 29 jumps is a little early for "target practice" and the organizer should have put you in a different slot if he meant for you to succeed and keep everyone else safe.

[davelepka 4]

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(a low timer on their 1st 8way) didn't get in and was very low***

If the guy only had 29 jumps, he was not low, the rest of were high.

This is my serious face.

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[tigra 0]

To answer your specific questions- there are two separate issues. You've got someone who went low, and a low time jumper doing (attempting) his first 8 way.

So the first thing the LO should do is make sure everyone else on the load knows its the guy's first 8 way. Then he should put the lowbie in a slot he can fly, and also a slot where HE, the LO can keep an eye on or even control him if things go wrong. Something like launching a 2 way base maybe? And letting the rest of the group know if the base funnels, the LO will make a point of catching up to the lowbie and forming a base with him. If you've got someone that inexperienced on the dive, isn't the point to make sure he has fun and walks away feeling good about it? Good enough that he'll want to try it again? And we wonder why so many newbies don't want to do RW!


And the plan for going low? Regardless of the size of the load, I was always told a) get out from under it b) try like hell to get back up to it and at least fly level with it if you can't figure out where to take a grip and c) if there is no way you're getting back up, track like hell and pull at your normal altitude.

What bothers me about this whole thread is here was this guy on his very first 8 way, and he should have had fun and landed with a grin on his face. When he went home that night, he should have been able to talk about the awesome skydive he was on and instead he feels bad over a mistake he made! First of all, ideally he shouldn't have been put in the position to make that mistake on his very first 8 way, and second, it was the responsibility of everyone else on the load to look out for him and EXPECT him to make a mistake. If I'm on a dive and someone goes low, I look all over the place for him when I track and dump!

[chopchop 0]

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(a low timer on their 1st 8way) didn't get in and was very low***

If the guy only had 29 jumps, he was not low, the rest of were high.

This is my serious face.

Exactly. No one with 29 jumps should be in any slot but the base and the formation shuld rebuild on him if he goes low. At my dz, if there is no camera on the jump, we would let someone with that jump number pull in place as opposed to tracking.. That way we aren't counting on his tracking abilities and we know precisely where he is. Glad it worked out ok.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

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[Reginald 0]

Whoa! There is a lot going on here. And I apologize up front if I come across as caustic on this one… but I’ll have to chime in as one of the people saying that a person with 29 jumps should not be doing an 8 way.

Moreover, on an 8 way, after 1,000 feet of tracking (from 4,500 to 3,500) two experienced jumpers were within 30 yards of each other AND on top of a person who went low? What was the problem with the tracking and awareness skills of those two jumpers? The two experienced jumper should have traveled at least 100 yards away from the center of the formation after 5 seconds of tracking, which on an 8 way should put them about 80 yards away from each other, at minimum, assuming 45 degrees of separation. Why were they so close? And why did they not know where the low man was?

Why did the LO think it was a good idea for such a low timer to be on an 8 way to begin with? And if it was going to be done, why was it not planed such that the low timer was the base that everyone went to, and then pulled in the center (assuming no camera)? Putting a 29-jump person into an 8 way is a bad idea to begin with but then expecting them to track away is an even worse idea.

The low timer opening at 3,500 feet is not an issue; that is a perfectly acceptable opening alt. for someone with that number of jumps. His only mistake was being on the load to begin with. It’s hard for a low timer being invited on a load like that to refuse but you’ve got to know your limits.

I’m glad we didn’t read about this in the incidents section.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[nate_1979 9]

Excuse my butting in to this, ... low jump numbers and all, but just wanted to say what my take on all this is, and mabey get some feedback on that..

If I am the (or one of the) jumpers who does not make it to an RW group, I always watch the group until their breakoff altitude and try to get as even with them as I can, when they break off I choose a direction to track which someone else has not (get the biggest gap possible) and go..

If I am in a group where a person or a couple of people dont link with us, I tend to give alot of attention to where those people are throughout the jump, and if I dont feel that others in the group have kept track of that person (which just happened this last weekend) I pointed to the lost person a little before breakoff, attempting to point that person out to the group, the group then all tracked around that person in an attempt to avoid this exact senerio, and then even as I track with someone lost I try to make sure i know where they went before opening...

Just seems to me it's all about being aware of where the people in your group are at, at all times, regardless if the jump goes to plan... Now all you have to worry about is the group behind you not leaving you enough spacing

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[KATO33 0]

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Much better for a low jumper to turn sideways to the formation (easier to look up) while maintaining visual contact and trying to recover altitude, then track away at the planned altitude like everyone else.

This is what I was taught as well. Stay close to the formation(so the others can see you), try to get back up, break off at pre determined altitude.

Blue Skies Black Death

[Zep 0]

>Much better for a low jumper to turn sideways to the formation (easier to look up) while maintaining visual contact and trying to recover altitude, then track away at the planned altitude like everyone else.<



That is the way I was taught as well.

Gone fishing

[swoopdog 0]

just to speak for the LO

I had just finished my b-rels and I was attempting to get my Starcrest.

If your going to live in FEAR, why live at all!!!!!

[tigra 0]

If you were diving on your first 8 way, it was essentially target practice. If that was OK with the whole group, they ALL also should have been watching out for you and pretty much planning on the fact that you *might* not make it in and you *might* go low and you *might* be a bit out of control. Its a learning process and we've all been there! You're mistake may have been getting in a little over your head. The LO's mistake was letting you, and no one should blame YOU for not looking for you and not tracking away from you.

I said it before- your first shot at an 8 way should not have left you feeling guilty and bad!

[Icon134 0]

I wouldn't normally post here but I invited a newbie (the jumper had about 30 jumps) on an 8-way for my 100th jump...

He was conserned that he wouldn't make it into the formation... so we put him in the 4-way base (with several experienced jumpers...)

We only managed to form a 7way... but he was in the formation because we set him up for success.

He's the only one without a jumpsuit on in the attached picture...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[tigra 0]

Awesome- that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

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[tr027 0]

I second what Reginald said. Looks like the dive was organized in such a way that getting the 8-way round was a higher priority than the safety of the jumpers, or else a low-timer wouldn't have been on the jump. The low-timer performed as expected, and as most low-timers do, but the jumpers and organizer(s) need to look at their own mistakes.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[AMax 0]

IMHO, if low timers get invited for a jump, it is ok to expect that they might go low and experience problem with tracking. I would not blame them as long as they follow the plan (obviously, the plan needs to be discussed before the jump) and do not do unsafe staff like pitching without tracking or staying right below the base. As Nate_1979 said, having a low person on relatively small group like 8-10 way is also a good opportunity for other new jumpers to expand their awareness. Knowing that someone did not get in, seeing this person and having a plan to get out of the possible mess before break-off altitude is a best way to avoid the traffic problems after break off. Good tracking skills help a lot too

[bob.dino 0]

To the non-Aussies:

In Australia, a Starcrest is required for a jumper to jump with more than 8 people. To get your Starcrest you must complete three jumps, each of which must satisfy the following conditions:

- Jump must contain 8-10 people.
- Starcrestee must dock fifth or later.
- Jump must be witnessed by two current starcrest holders.

This precludes taking the inexperienced jumper out as part of the base; the whole point of the jump is to teach the novice to swoop and dock on a formation. And yes, it's often target practice if you're in the base.

At my DZ, Starcrests are usually, but not always, attempted by folk with over fifty jumps, and the CI (~=DZSO) is reluctant to sign off C Licences (100 jumps) for non-Starcrest holders.

My first Starcrest attempt, which I screwed up, was on jump 49. I then joined a 4-way team and so my three successful Starcrests were on jumps 97, 98, & 99.

[tigra 0]

Thanks for the explanation however that doesn't negate the fact that it was the responsibility of the more experienced jumpers on the load to look out for the Star Crest candidate on his very first 8 way.

My only issue with this is that the new jumper was made to feel responsible for the near miss. That's extremely unfair! He performed very predictably.
Let's place the responsibility where it belongs!

[BenediktDE 2]

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How do you LOs and instructors brief for a low diver

As a low timer I was briefed as follows: Breakoff is at 1500m (4930ft) if you are in the formation or close to it.
If I notice in 2000m (6560ft) that it would no longer be likely to get in the formation for whatever reason start tracking in this altitude in 90° to flightline. (Flightline was easy to find since the jumprun was parallel to a coast.)

In the end the later was what happened. I was very low and tracked from 2000m to 1000m and deployed in an airspace clear as fresh water. ;)

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.