canopy control- prior aviation, other aeronautical activty knowledge/experience helpful? something to pursue?

[skyflower_bloom 0]

do you need to understand aerodynamics either a bit, or in depth, to be a good canopy pilot? can it be a benefit? a detriment?

basically i feel like, to optimally control my canopy i will want to (eventually?) understand what it does and why, not just "pull toggle right and it goes right." because on a big student canopy i can sorta do whatever and it generally works ok, but i want to build good habits so i know how to give proper input to a smaller one down the line.

examples-- i want to know what causes a stall, what wind direction (esp. variable and crosswinds) and turbulence do and why, what the yaw axis means, how to intuitively work with my canopy in changing conditions or unexpected occurrences, etc. and ESPECIAALLY in an emergency, to have that basic intuitive knowledge from the get-go that allows me to make a smart choice and react almost instinctively but with some forethought, that balance, if i have several options of what i could do for say an avoidance maneuver or low turn, etc. (i don't expect answers- just whether this knowledge is available through study of aerodynamics and whether it is worth pursuing learning those basics)

any ideas for resources that could help? to what extent these concepts and field of study are useful as a canopy pilot? visuals/demo can be helpful as to my learning style. i do have germains "the parachute and its pilot" on the way- is that a book that will cover some of this, i assume? other book or vid ideas?

and it is quite possible this is something that either i am considering too early as a student, or over-thinking, if so please tell me this w/out hesitation, i just don't have a sense for it and when i hear some of these concepts it goes over my head. i also have a genuine interest in this field as it relates to the sport etc.

i am generally told i do ok to very well under canopy and landing, but i don't often understand exactly what i am doing or why i am doing it. i guess i want to more of how my canopy is responding and why- though i do play around with it, and observe, without background/basic knowledge, you cannot interpret that, yk?

input appreciated, blue skies/ robyn

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[quade 3]

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do you need to understand aerodynamics either a bit, or in depth, to be a good canopy pilot? can it be a benefit? a detriment?

I don't think anybody has ever died from knowing aerodynamics, although quite a few have from not knowing enough.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[davelepka 4]

Brian Germain literally wrote the book on modern skydiving canopies and their use. It called 'The Parachute and it's Pilot' (I think), and it contains all the info you're after, and is written and illustrated such that it makes it easy to understand a whole bunch of complicated info. Well worth whatever it costs these days, most likely under $30.

[oldrookie 0]

Yes, Brain's book and the parachute manuals contain all the information you need as well as information you don't need yet.

[Blink 0]

I'll second Brian Germain's book, "The Parachute And It's Pilot" http://www.amazon.com/Parachute-Its-Pilot-Ultimate-Ram-Air/dp/0977627721/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278735954&sr=8-4. It will answer most questions you could have any canopy piloting.

Something else I'd recommend is a Brian Germain canopy course, you get plenty of aerodynamic details, as well as practical coaching.

[airtwardo 6]

There's theory and then there's practical application.

Book learning is a great way to start and will assist you in understanding the reasons to or not to do certain things ~ why things happen the way they do...but work on the practical application as well....'UP HIGH' when the time comes and you're ready.

Flying a canopy is both science and art, you gotta link up the input from all your senses and that takes both practice and knowledge.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Dittodogg 0]

Yes it helps you understand what inputs will do what to the lift/ drag or TAF (total aerodynamic force) of your wing. I do think you may be getting a lil ahead of yourself here, but if you are laid up say.. from.... trying to eat the step of a cessna... Watch videos on aerodynamics read books ask question. It wont hurt.

As for me, knowing this stuff is how I can afford to jump. I am an Army pilot and I have to cram and relearn this crap once a year when I get an evaluation on how smart... or stupid I am.

BLUF.. it helps to know whats going on overhead,,, weather its a piece of fabric attached to 3 grand of skydiving gear, or a rotor blade attached to 34 million dollars of helicopter.

Just my .02

Blue skies and hope you heal fast.

Team Dirty Sanchez #455,
Muff Brother #4197,
SCR #14847, DPH -8,
Dude #5150

[Andy9o8 0]

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I am an Amy pilot

Hey, how is she? I always liked her.

[kuai43 7]

Dump high. Often. Fly the fuck out of your canopy like it was your ex-husband's Ferrari. Use everything - fronts, rears, toggles, harness. Use them in unison.

You'll find out what it can and cannot do.

Do it at 8K and you won't be afraid of it when it counts.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[Dittodogg 0]

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Quote

I am an Amy pilot

Hey, how is she? I always liked her.

I blame the Arizona public skool system...

My names jay and I can count to potato.

3 Years ago I couldnt spell pilot, Now I are one.

Team Dirty Sanchez #455,
Muff Brother #4197,
SCR #14847, DPH -8,
Dude #5150

[Dean358 0]

My suggestion is to go take an introductory glider lesson. (The terms “glider” and “sailplane” are used interchangeably.) This will give you a real sense of the atmosphere, first hand experience of how pitch, roll and yaw work and have you fly a precision, non-powered landing pattern. A 30-minute lesson is in the $65 price range, and you’ll have a certified flight instructor sitting behind you the entire time.

You can find more info and the nearest glider port here: www.ssa.org

www.wci.nyc

[kallend 1,623]

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My suggestion is to go take an introductory glider lesson. (The terms “glider” and “sailplane” are used interchangeably.) This will give you a real sense of the atmosphere, first hand experience of how pitch, roll and yaw work and have you fly a precision, non-powered landing pattern. A 30-minute lesson is in the $65 price range, and you’ll have a certified flight instructor sitting behind you the entire time.

You can find more info and the nearest glider port here: www.ssa.org

I already had a glider license when I started skydiving. I believe it helped tremendously with canopy flight, particularly setting up and flying a pattern, dealing with wind, judging a landing spot, and judging when to flare.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Dutton 0]

Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

Best book on flying ever for the recreational pilot.

If you really want to nerd out, read Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators. Won't help you much with flying a parachute though.

Just make sure you understand that your canopy does not know or care which way the wind is blowing.

Helps with the crosswind and off field landings...

[jim_32766 0]

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do you need to understand aerodynamics either a bit, or in depth, to be a good canopy pilot? can it be a benefit? a detriment?

I only have slightly more experience than you do with canopy flight but am also a private pilot and will share my experience.

My piloting skills provided a couple of minor challenges. These were:

1) When I started to fly canopy I had a tendency to fly the pattern too large. My mental imagery was tuned to landing my plane. While the concepts of pattern and landing are the same (except no engine for glide path adjustment or go-around with the canopy), the canopy needs a fraction of the pattern size. It took a while for me to re-train my brain and fly the correct size pattern for the canopy.

and,

2) I also had to adjust to the lack of horizontal travel over ground the very large student Nav280 provided. I pictured carrying some distance while I bled the energy prior to landing. The big Navigator really just needed to be shutdown as I approached the ground. I am now flying a Sabre2 210 and find it much easier to land. It does provided some over the ground travel, and has a much stronger flare.

As you've indicated in your post, the benefits of the piloting experience and the familiarity of aerodynamics are beneficial to learning canopy flight. As others have suggested you really should get a book like the one from Brian Germain to learn the technical aspect of flight.

However, that book learning will only form a foundation and represent the "science" aspect of canopy flight. The "art" aspect of flight requires time and practice. We all need to get up there, open high, and learn to fly the full envelope of our canopies. That experience builds real world skills that become automatic over time.

Think about other skills like riding a bike or figure skating. Reading about the mechanics is fine but only practice makes someone good at either of them.

The meaning of life . . . is to make life have meaning.

[theonlyski 3]

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I do think you may be getting a lil ahead of yourself here, but if you are laid up say.. from.... trying to eat the step of a cessna...

Yeah, like THAT would ever happen!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[skyflower_bloom 0]

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do you need to understand aerodynamics either a bit, or in depth, to be a good canopy pilot? can it be a benefit? a detriment?

I don't think anybody has ever died from knowing aerodynamics, although quite a few have from not knowing enough.

Fair enough. I guess my thought was just that since some aspects can be over-thought and actually be a distraction, I was not sure if in my case/in general this would be pushing the envelope for knowledge base at this level. That said, point taken.

Since I don't have much better to do.. (not that I would ever, ya know, bite a cessna, as someone said, i'm not that crazy ) but since i have some time to devote to some more on the ground learning, wanted to see if folks felt this was a useful place to direct learning energy (along w/ packing of course). Sounds like an affirmative.

Thanks for the suggestion about the glider! That is an awesome idea; mix it up a bit, and get another perspective on what these inputs really translate to.

Germain's book Parachute and its Pilot, as well as his book on fear, are on their way to me right now!

Thanks again, any more ideas, keep em coming, and thanks for pointing out the importance of the balance of logical thought and reading and such, as well as the actual act of playing around with inputs up high and translating the knowledge to action and observation in the "real world" of canopy control.

blue skies/ robyn

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[theonlyski 3]

100 word limit = failed again

The canopy book from Brian is GREAT reading, and you'll learn alot. I read it while I was deployed, and couldnt jump anyways, glad I did!

Perhaps you should buy one of these for your next jump?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[skyflower_bloom 0]

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100 word limit = failed again

The canopy book from Brian is GREAT reading, and you'll learn alot. I read it while I was deployed, and couldnt jump anyways, glad I did!

Perhaps you should buy one of these for your next jump?

lol no one told me my prize i have no incentive to count words... plus some posts are longer than mine in recent threads.. quit pickin on the invalid!! haha

is that a football helmet?? oh god. i actually was told by the dentist they would fit me with a mouthgard for sleep and sports activities in order to validate the 5 y warranty. i really never will live this down.

psyched to dive into brian's book (edit to add: NOT with my teeth)! glad to hear you enjoyed it and was helpful :) pm your way soon too! blue skies!!

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[theonlyski 3]

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100 word limit = failed again

The canopy book from Brian is GREAT reading, and you'll learn alot. I read it while I was deployed, and couldnt jump anyways, glad I did!

Perhaps you should buy one of these for your next jump?

lol no one told me my prize i have no incentive to count words... plus some posts are longer than mine in recent threads.. quit pickin on the invalid!! haha

is that a football helmet?? oh god. i actually was told by the dentist they would fit me with a mouthgard for sleep and sports activities in order to validate the 5 y warranty. i really never will live this down.

psyched to dive into brian's book (edit to add: NOT with my teeth)! glad to hear you enjoyed it and was helpful :) pm your way soon too! blue skies!!

Oh, I think I hear someone calling my name... better go see what they need. j/k

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[skyflower_bloom 0]

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Dump high. Often. Fly the fuck out of your canopy like it was your ex-husband's Ferrari. Use everything - fronts, rears, toggles, harness. Use them in unison.

You'll find out what it can and cannot do.

Do it at 8K and you won't be afraid of it when it counts.

once on coach jumps can i pull at 8k for real, if i tell them my intention and let everyone know?? to practice canopy? is there a chance i will get lost and wind up miles away (i have nightmares about that btw lol)

have you done it??

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[AggieDave 6]

It is important to understand that although persons with experience will learn some aspects of canopy flight quicker than others, that it is not a complete and true transition.

A prime example is a friend of mine is a commercial pilot, had a few thousand hours and was a jumper. His friends tried to stop him, but he argued that a "wing is a wing." When it came to being behind the yoke or the stick, he is exceptionally talented; however, that talented ended as he impacted under canopy. If there had not been 3-4 days of solid rain previously, he would be dead. In his case it took a few years to recover.

A wing is not a wing when moving across various aviation activities. Just as I wouldn't assume that I could ground launch a canopy, fly a paraglider or land a 182, don't assume that you can skip crucial learning steps in your learning process for canopy flight. Although you may be able to move through some of those steps faster than others at your experience level, be safe, get coaching and most of all have fun!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[theonlyski 3]

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Dump high. Often. Fly the fuck out of your canopy like it was your ex-husband's Ferrari. Use everything - fronts, rears, toggles, harness. Use them in unison.

You'll find out what it can and cannot do.

Do it at 8K and you won't be afraid of it when it counts.

once on coach jumps can i pull at 8k for real, if i tell them my intention and let everyone know?? to practice canopy? is there a chance i will get lost and wind up miles away (i have nightmares about that btw lol)

have you done it??

Once you're cleared for solo supervision, let the load know your intention (including the pilot) and get on the plane in the right order with them. I wouldnt do it on a coach jump.

Sunset high hop and pop... thats a good way to end a day!

Yes, you can end up far out, pay attention to where you are and where you're going. Have someone help you spot for the higher pull.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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once on coach jumps can i pull at 8k for real, if i tell them my intention and let everyone know?? to practice canopy? is there a chance i will get lost and wind up miles away (i have nightmares about that btw lol)

have you done it??

Yep. Don't do it on really windy days and you'll be fine. You might want to take the spot out a bit longer, but that's about it.

I usually do a "high hop&pop" on one of my first jumps in the spring after the long winter layoff. It lets me reaquaint myself with my canopy. Stall point, slow flight, flat turns, practice flares, all that kind of stuff. As long as the pilot knows you are going to be flying around that high and for that long it shouldn't be a problem.

MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE APPROVAL OF THE INSTRUCTORS AND PILOT.

That way everyone knows where you will be and can plan accordingly.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[crotalus01 0]

Why open at 8K when you can open at 14K instead? Thats almost twice the flying time (depending on what you do of course).
I try and do a 14K hop-n-pop at least twice a month in the summer (often one a week).

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[Inspired 0]

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Why open at 8K when you can open at 14K instead? Thats almost twice the flying time (depending on what you do of course).
I try and do a 14K hop-n-pop at least twice a month in the summer (often one a week).

I just did that yesterday, and let me tell you... it was friggin' cold up there! After a couple minutes, my fingers started getting a little numb and I started thinking that maybe I should've pulled at 9 or 10k instead.

It was an awesome experience though, and I plan on doing many more of them. The view was spectacular and I had no reservations about testing some of the limits of my canopy from that altitude. I think I agree with you, they're a great idea.