Am I taking these forums too seriously?

[billvon 2,476]

>However, I believe the delivery of the message is just as important as
>the content.

That works better in art class than in skydiving. While I am all for presenting stuff in a positive format, sometimes there's no nice way to say it.

I mean, you can use any terms you want. But eventually you get to a point where you have to say "yeah, you're doing really great and we all support you 100% but we're going to ask you to concentrate on ground-focused skydiving activities for the next 30 days or so because of what happened." That's not because people are "into negativity" or anything, but because you really can die or kill someone else in this sport, and after that even the nicest words don't work so well.

Also, you get sort of sick of the same thing happening a dozen times.

100 jump guy #1: "Hey, I think I'm going to jump this Katana 120. I'll be really careful."
You: "That's great, but that might not be the best choice for you."
100 jump guy #1: "Thanks for the advice! I'll let you know how it goes."
Guy breaks his leg.

100 jump guy #2: "Hey, I think I'm going to jump this Katana 120. I'll be really careful."
You: "That's great, but that might not be the best choice for you."
100 jump guy #2: "Thanks for the advice! I'll let you know how it goes."
Guy shatters his pelvis.

100 jump guy #3: "Hey, I think I'm going to jump this Katana 120. I'll be really careful."
You: "That's great, but that might not be the best choice for you."
100 jump guy #3: "Thanks for the advice! I'll let you know how it goes."
Guy collides with someone you know and kills him.

100 jump guy #4: "Hey, I think I'm going to jump this Katana 120. I'll be really careful."

At some point you're going to stop being so positive and say something like "people like you hurt themselves and kill my friends." Not because you want to be negative, but because it's true and they have to know that.

[rnicks 0]

I understand how that type of conversation would get old and frusterating. However I don't believe being nice is just reserved for art class. I apply this concept to all aspects of my life.

Though at 300 jumps I am not qualified to give out advice on jumping, my 30 years as a human qualifies me to speak on human nature! And you really do attract more bees with honey.

In my line of work, I deal with some VERY MAD ANGRY people. Even though some may be mean and very rude to me, at the end of the day almost all of them thank me at the end of my shift because of the way I have treated them. I haven't taken away their diagnosis and they aren't any less mad, but hearing a very quiet mumbled "thank you", I know that it is possible to change somebody's attitude with kindness.

Maybe not everybody has the time, patience or even the desire to be nice when giving advice. My reply to that would be, no problem. Just refrain from giving advice. Leave that for the ones that want to. Take Dave Lepka for example. Over lurking here for a few years, I have read hundereds of post by him to many different people all saying the same thing. And he is always very pleasent. (most of the time). I would go mad saying those words over and over!!!! I can only assume he genueinly cares about the well being of jumpers he doesn't know. Otherwise, why take the time to repeat whats been said a zillion times.

I understand the stakes are high in skydiving. But that doesn't mean you have to be mean to get a point across. Jumping is not unique to danger. Many other sports are just as and more so dangerous. But for some reason in skydiving, the experienced want to eat their young. (A popular saying from nursing school)

Just be nice! Most will listen.

[Amazon 7]

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I understand how that type of conversation would get old and frusterating. However I don't believe being nice is just reserved for art class. I apply this concept to all aspects of my life.

Though at 300 jumps I am not qualified to give out advice on jumping, my 30 years as a human qualifies me to speak on human nature! And you really do attract more bees with honey.

In my line of work, I deal with some VERY MAD ANGRY people. Even though some may be mean and very rude to me, at the end of the day almost all of them thank me at the end of my shift because of the way I have treated them. I haven't taken away their diagnosis and they aren't any less mad, but hearing a very quiet mumbled "thank you", I know that it is possible to change somebody's attitude with kindness.

Maybe not everybody has the time, patience or even the desire to be nice when giving advice. My reply to that would be, no problem. Just refrain from giving advice. Leave that for the ones that want to. Take Dave Lepka for example. Over lurking here for a few years, I have read hundereds of post by him to many different people all saying the same thing. And he is always very pleasent. (most of the time). I would go mad saying those words over and over!!!! I can only assume he genueinly cares about the well being of jumpers he doesn't know. Otherwise, why take the time to repeat whats been said a zillion times.

I understand the stakes are high in skydiving. But that doesn't mean you have to be mean to get a point across. Jumping is not unique to danger. Many other sports are just as and more so dangerous. But for some reason in skydiving, the experienced want to eat their young. (A popular saying from nursing school)

Just be nice! Most will listen.

I really do try to treat newer jumpers well since they are the future of our sport. Hell I will jump with just about anybody...( well except for Bolas) and I do not minnd paying it forward since that was how I learned back in the old days when there wasw no such thing as paid coach jumps

Over the yearrs I have watched 6 people "go in" and innumerable injuries and ya know what.. more and more they are due to mad skillz.

Sorry if I sound snarky to some of the people on here though who continue to argue for their mad skillz.... so at this point I support their desire to jump full on elipticals loaded at 1.6+ to 1 or with camera's.. HELL I think cameras should be mandatory so we can at least get lots and lots of mad skillz video... to pass along to those willing to use their brains and learn the lessons that the old and decrpit skydivers like me have learned the hard way. AT least we can have some great train wreck skydiving video,s to watch this way.

Edited to add.. and no this is not to you rnicks.. just a generic....

If you are going to do anything really stupid in this sport.. at least get cool video to share.

[Beachbum 0]

I've stated before, and still do feel that with most of it for most people, the "kinder, gentler" is the way to go (always exceptions!) ... and I think that for the biggest part, people DO use it when possible. Ask how to do a certain exit or fly a specific slot, and that is probably what you'll get.

BUT, when it comes to safety issues, that goes out the door. As has been stated, you can seriously injure or kill not only yourself, but those around you. Most people take that threat pretty seriously, so when safety is part of the subject matter, yes ... it can get pretty hardcore to be sure it sinks in and leaves no doubt about the gravity of the issue. I like Bill's post ... good illustration!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[rnicks 0]

I guess at this point I have to admit defeat and realize nobody is going to agree with me. I guess I'm just nicer than all you meanies
A few last points though. RE: Beachbum, why does it have to be hardcore when it comes to safety issues? If anything, I think these are the issues that are most important and should be dealt with in the most appropriate manner. You stated "...you can seriously injure or kill not only yourself, but those around you." But that also holds true for many other sports and also many ADL's. That's not a reason to be more "hardcore". If anything, more nice! A few beers and a nice long chat around the fire. It's probably not that hard!

To Jeanne: I'm so sorry for the fatalites you have seen. I have been fortunate so far. However, wouldn't you want to use the experience of loosing your friends to help others not make the same mistake? You have so much to offer. You've been in the sport a long time and have done some cool shit! You should at the very least not be advocating younger jumpers to wear camaras to get footage of their carnage. That's gruesome and gave me the shivers! (I'm assuming you were being sarcastic)

Also, I hear so much talk of "mad skillz". (I hate that term! That and newbie. Such stupid terms!!) Besides ridestrong of course, does anybody actually claim to have these? I see so many accusations of people having them but nobody actually claiming they do. It just seems to be a phrase the accusor can use to justify why they need to be harsh. I would think most people are progressing within their abilities and with the advice of the upjumpers at their dz's. It's probably only a few that need a bit more attention and niceness stowed upon them! Maybe I'm being naive.

ETA: ghost47: You are correct in thinking that the message should be recieved despite the delivery. However, when emotions are running high, this logic will likely go out the window for many, myself included.

[bluetwo 0]

I agree with you to a point. One thing that I believe in 100% is that people who are harsh unnecessirily just have absolutely no class and no character. Metaphorically speaking: those people are just hiding in the bushes like some stalker waiting to pounce on a victim because they want to prove some dimented point. Like people of certain race or backgrounds who just wait for that opportunity to go off because someone said the wrong word; they're not genuinely, rightfully, appropriately offended. They're just drama queens and attention whores with nothing better to do or maybe they want to tell everyone the story that they lived but the only outlet they can come up with is the playing the victim route.

I'm not trying to say this about anyone in particular in fact I haven't even seen anyone as bad as I'm talking about on this message board. I have been posting on other message boards since 2002 however and I've pretty much seen it all. I just have a serious distaste for shitty people and I hope my post here makes any would be noob-bashing bastard stop and think for a minute.

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[Amazon 7]

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I guess at this point I have to admit defeat and realize nobody is going to agree with me. I guess I'm just nicer than all you meanies

To Jeanne: I'm so sorry for the fatalites you have seen. I have been fortunate so far. However, wouldn't you want to use the experience of loosing your friends to help others not make the same mistake? You have so much to offer. You've been in the sport a long time and have done some cool shit! You should at the very least not be advocating younger jumpers to wear camaras to get footage of their carnage. That's gruesome and gave me the shivers! (I'm assuming you were being sarcastic)

Also, I hear so much talk of "mad skillz". (I hate that term! That and newbie. Such stupid terms!!) Besides ridestrong of course, does anybody actually claim to have these? I see so many accusations of people having them but nobody actually claiming they do. It just seems to be a phrase the accusor can use to justify why they need to be harsh. I would think most people are progressing within their abilities and with the advice of the upjumpers at their dz's. It's probably only a few that need a bit more attention and niceness stowed upon them! Maybe I'm being naive.

.

You will find that some guys will just not listen
I suppose I am being sarcastic... but to make a point. You can suggest things to reinforce some points of safety to some guys and its as rewarding as talking to a post. Those with mad skillz are better than anyone who have gone before them, They can learn nothing from those of us who have survived for many years and from seeing some of our friends die in a myriad of waysw What you have are people who have not realized their own mortality yet and are invicible. They are more athletic and smarter than anyone else and progress faster than anyone who has gone before. They are the ones downsizing to eliptical canopies with less than the recommended number of jumps. They are the ones who buy the damn things after getting all the input they want to hear and call it an "informed" decision

Ya know they are out there and if they just killed themselves and removed themselves from the gene pool.. so be it. The problem comes from their taking out others, injuring or killing someone else and yes.. it has happened The other bad thing is its self perpetuating... it puts skydiving in a bad light.. and draws other numbnuts just like them to their closest dropzone to get all eXtReMe.

Personally I do believe those who are so much better than the rest of us survivors... really needthen they need to have several lipstick cams on them so we can get cool video... and pass the video to other new jumpers who may wish to emulate them.

[kkeenan 13]

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..."mad skillz"...I see so many accusations of people having them but nobody actually claiming they do. It just seems to be a phrase the accusor can use to justify why they need to be harsh.

Do some research on the name Ted Nelson. I'm not sure he coined the term Mad Skilz, but he did a lot to make the concept stick with us.

You are right in a lot that you say about nicely explaining things to people. Believe me, that's by far the way most experienced folks relate to their newer bretheren. Sometimes, when niceness is returned with rudeness, or with the person doing even more wierd shit, just to prove they don't have to listen to anyone, then the approach needs to be amplified.

Kevin

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Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Yes

[danornan 67]

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...we (those of us that are new to the sport that come here for learning when we can't be at our home DZs) are generally percieved as rogues or assholes out there with an invicibility complex with a lack of regard for our own or other peoples' lives and general safety.

People, new or old, on this site are only perceived and judged by what they write. The post that you quoted was written by me in response to a discussion about a certain technique for clearing the air around yourself prior to deployment at the end of a group freefall.

Hopefully, you took the time to read the entire thread and didn't just see the term, "Hundred Jump Wonder", and think all newbies were being picked on. I carefully worded that response to the original poster. He was trying to find a justification for a technique that has been discussed in extreme detail, through many, many posts, and declared worthless and unsafe by at least 90% of the people who discussed it. He proceeded to pick apart these explanations to try to find some justification for this technique or to find anyone who would agree with him.

Many times in the early part of a person's jumping career, they will come across a way of doing things that seems to make sense to them, and since no one else is doing it, they feel that they have discovered something fabulous and new. Sometimes they have. More often, however, they have come across something that was tried and discarded long ago as worthless or dangerous. Usually, when told about this, the person understands the explanation and moves along. That was not the case with this poster. It is frustrating to try to give information to someone that is intended to save their lives and those of their friends and have it dismissed as just another "suggestion". People who have been doing this for a while have seen their friends die because of unforseen causes. Once these causes are understood, it's tough to watch others ignore the lessons and make the same mistakes again.

If you need to be gently and softly talked into believing a message that is intended to save you from a violent a horrible death, maybe you're in the wrong sport.

Kevin Keenan

Nice response Kevin - What a lot of new people fail to recognize or don't want to know ( it is the ugly aspect of this sport ) is that many of the rules were written in someone's blood. Too many of our friends have died over the years and we are just trying to prevent another death. People die skydiving and if you fail to recognize that you are doomed to repeat it.

Why not benefit from previous experiences. More is learned by listening than by talking.

Dano

[brettski74 0]

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I think people who say things like - search noob! - are just too lazy to share and discuss what they know with other people.

That's it. WE are too lazy to get off our butts and tell YOU the things that YOU want to know. I mean, that's what we're here for - to serve YOU and YOUR needs, right?

Aside from the back-asswardness of your statement, there are other good reasons for you to be using the search function and reading what's already been discussed, such as:

keeping information on a given topic in one spot so it is easier for others to find.

points made in a discussion two years ago may not arise in a new discussion of the topic, so you would miss that information

if you do feel that there is further discussion on the topic, you can post to the existing thread to continue the discussion along the new line you post.

[airtwardo 6]

In my line of work, I deal with some VERY MAD ANGRY people. Even though some may be mean and very rude to me, at the end of the day almost all of them thank me at the end of my shift because of the way I have treated them.

But for many of us this isn't 'work' so the advise is free...so not only do ya get what ya pay for, it often isn't sugar coated.

I don't know what you do for a living giving advise wise, but do they chopper evac people that DON'T take your advise very often?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

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So I'd say the takeaway is twofold: experienced jumpers -- if you're nicer, your message might get through better. Less experienced jumpers -- try to listen to the content of the message, not the delivery.

We could ALL learn from this.
Thanks for putting things into perspective.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I think people who say things like - search noob! - are just too lazy to share and discuss what they know with other people.

That's it. WE are too lazy to get off our butts and tell YOU the things that YOU want to know. I mean, that's what we're here for - to serve YOU and YOUR needs, right?

Whaaaa? It seems like you are saying it NOT all about ME!

I don't want to do no stinkin' research. I don't care if it's been discussed before! I don't need no SIM. I don't wanna read any existing books on skydiving. I don't want to learn anything for myself! I want YOU to TELL me. I don't care if you are right, wrong or indifferent. Just TELL me!

Now, tell me nicely or I'm not a-gonna listen.

Now, seriously...
I can certainly understand the frustration of dealing with people who want to argue with no basic foundation of knowledge. That's where the "Mad Skillz" concept comes from. That's where the "100-jump Wonder" concept comes from.

Whether it's a good thing or bad I don't know yet but I'm currently in a stage of my career where I tell those who want to argue with no foundation in knowledge, "Go look it up and get back to me". They don't know what they are talking about and they aren't listening to rhyme or reason or suggestions for additional information resources. It gets really, really old beating your head against the wall. Damn. I getting cynical in my old age.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bluetwo 0]

See, you guys have been doing this for a while and it's been working out for you so do what you do, that's cool.

Just go on patting yourselves on the back and justify being bad people in the name of safety. SIM this and I'm-better-than-you-because-I've-been-doing-it-for-a-while that. You're only proving my point anyway and making yourselves look bad in the process. I know I'm right and that's what matters to me.

We're not even talking about safety in particular here anyway. We're talking about anything that can be covered on this board anywhere and how the right thing for you guys with experience to do is share your knowledge instead of going out of your way to be a prick. Basically I'm telling you what your mothers obviously never told you: if you don't have anything good to say just shut the fuck up.

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[monkycndo 0]

The newer people to this site that tend to get the "read the SIM- do a search-etc" are the people that have obviously not taken any effort to try and find the information they are looking for. If they had said "I am new to the board, tried the find and answer but couldn't, could someone point me in the right direction," the supposedly crotchety old farts like Pops, the bytch, and even myself would be bending over backward to help. But those few words to start the post were even to much effort for some of the folks that come on and want to be spoon fed the info they are asking for. I guess we could start a library of our individual posts that we could just send the new person to. But that could be accomplished by them hitting the search button as well. I often find interesting information I wasn't looking for as I search for the thing I wanted. But it isn't the immediate gratification that the "tell me what I want to know NOW" people appear to be asking for. It's kind of like ten kids in the back of a bus individually asking the driver, "are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?" After the first couple of answers being "No", would you be surprised that the answer eventually becomes NO or "I just told the last person that asked no we are not there yet so why are you asking the exact same question?"

Was this helpful and provided in a courteous manner, or should I take your advice given and STFU?

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You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[bluetwo 0]

I know what you gus are saying, believe me. I'm fairly sure in fact that I have more message board experience than about 80% of the people here. Just look on ANY car forum and you'll see my name and despite the fact that I've forgotten more about cars than most people will ever know I'm still always willing to answer somones question if I'm sure I have a good answer for them.

What bothers me is when people are super quick to tell someone off and especially when it's obvious that person just doesn't have the patience to explain the thing. Why even waste a post? Those same people are the ones who are quickest to complain about how there are too posts on the board already? It's counter productive in every way.

Those things said, I DO actully know that I should include the words, I've searched but can't find or maybe I'm just missing it, and generally people help me out. What I'm getting at now is that NEW people don't know these things. They are "required" to read the Forum Rules but I think we all know that doesn't happen. About 99% of the people here probably never read them. So you can talk about forum rules and read first threads all you want, if you really want to waste your time doing so.

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