HALO Jumps

[mjosparky 3]

30,000 feet is not the place to be depending on home made equipment. A lot of things were done 30 or 40 years ago and some of those things where not such a bright idea. Some survived, so did not.
The information about the physiological effects of high altitude is readily available as it the proper equipment. A HALO jump is not the time to go on the cheap.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[fendor1369 0]

I have been to 25k at night, very cool jump 100s of freefall. One of the coolest jumps I have done.

Well worth it.

John - D.S 1313

"I'll jump it, Np. It's all good"

[chuteless 1]

I certainly did not do anything on the " cheap". The console wasnt the only thing I made and it was well made, and was used several times. I also made my own refilling device for bailout bottles. I had about 20 of them, and kept them filled.

I had the experience to do what was required, and had access to a great deal of military advice and equipment.

I agree it should not be done on the cheap, and your cheap shot about what was made by me, is just that...a cheap shot.

I could refill the bailout bottles, and did it many times, and " NOT on the cheap.", and I made my own refilling device.

I can tell you that on one occassion, a jumper from western Canada wrote to the military people I was dealing with, and they showed me his letter. In it, he said he wanted to make a HALO jump, and had managed to scrounge some stuff that he would put to use.

That immediately cut him off from any military assistance, even though they likel;y wouldnt have given him any . It just wasnt given to the public.

I had cultivated a relationship with this particular military establishment over many years, and was accepted by everyone from the Generals on down the line.

Since you never even saw my equipment, it is rather rude to make such a dumb comment about it implying it was cheaply done.

[mjosparky 3]

If you think that my advising people not to use homemade equipment for high altitude jumps then so be it.
You may have done it in the past but that does not make the smart thing to do. From your description of your system it sounds like you did not include some of the safety related parts that allow you to monitor equipment function and O2 levels. Moister and debris filters, flow indicators and an Airox III to regulate inhalation flow and control back pressure during exhalation.
While high altitude jumps can be done safely they add several layers of added risk and complexity to the jump. If something goes wrong a jumper could end up crippled or dead.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chuteless 1]

FYI: I had a high performance regulator on the main supply, and it monitored the full tank pressure, and then dispatched it into a much lower ( about 500psi) to the demand regulators in the display, from which we had our hoses connencetd tio the demand regulators.

Both the main supply and what was going to our demand regulators were both on separate gauges, and easily monitored.

There is no back pressure when using the demand regulators, as we are breathing only 500 psi, and breathing is normal. As we disconnect from those regulators, we activate our bailout bottles and the main supply is off.

Try it sometime, and while I agree someone could be killed or mentally injured from poor equipment, I had exceptional equipment, and advice from people much smarter than you will ever be, Canadian military personnel.

[billvon 2,400]

>There is no back pressure when using the demand regulators . . .

"Back pressure" (the pressure 'pushing back' against your effort to exhale) is determined by the cracking pressure of the exhalation valve. In regular demand systems this is usually fairly low but noticeable. In overpressure systems it's very significant intentionally.

Many military systems are overpressure systems (or pressure-demand systems) that have been 'crippled' so that the overpressure has been reduced to near-zero. In the case of the Superior Skydiving system, they insert a fitting to vent the extra oxygen so it's easier to breathe. However, for the first few seconds during switchover to bailout O2 it is quite hard to exhale.

You may be referring to the cracking pressure of the demand valve, which is determined by the quality of the regulator. This is the effort required to breathe in in a demand system.

>as we are breathing only 500 psi

You're not breathing 500psi oxygen. That would kill you instantly. You're either breathing oxygen at ambient pressure or (if you have an overpressure system) at slightly higher than ambient pressure. Since you tout how easy it is to breathe from this system, it's likely ambient pressure (which is between about 5 and 14 psi absolute.)

[mjosparky 3]

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Try it sometime, and while I agree someone could be killed or mentally injured from poor equipment, I had exceptional equipment, and advice from people much smarter than you will ever be, Canadian military personnel.

I have tried it.
I used to run the high altitude training program at Apple Valley and as a civilian contractor did high altitude test work for the Navy at China Lake and YPG. Also did several test for the Canadian military at a place called Cold Lake. I have more than a few jumps from above 24,000 feet working as both jumpmaster and phys. tech.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chuteless 1]

Billvon: [ in the equipment I was using ] The Oxygen in the master supply ( a three foot long bottle) is pressured at 2000 psi + or -, and it is then reduced to about 500 psi + or -. From that reduction regulator, it is then fed to the demand regulator, which breaks it down even further to ambient or normal breathing. There is no way that the extremely high pressure can blow back into your face after having been twice reduced from high pressure, to the demand regulator.

It is true, as I indicated before, that when you disconnect the hose from the demand regulator, and activate your bailout system, there is a blast of high pressure from the small bailout bottle which is almost 2000 psi, [ there is no way that high pressure blast kills you instantly ]and it is at that time you are required to forcibly exhale, while inhaling is done under the pressure of the bottle. There is NO regulator on the bailout bottle.

That high pressure will slowly reduce as the oxygen is used up during the freefall, and it is advisable to keep the mask on tight until the chute is opened.

I am not disagreeing with what you posted, because I believe we are on the same page.

I do not agree that 500 psi pressure will kill you instantly, because the bailout bottle is 4 times that pressure, and although it is easy to breathe and hard to exhale, I have used it many times, and I am still alive.

Just stating the case for the record.


Bill Cole

[pirana 0]

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High Altitude- around 30,000'?

Low Opening- How low do you pull on one of these jumps?

How high will they take you on these jumps and why does it take so much longer to get to only about twice as high as usual?

Is the one extra minute of free fall really that different and worth THAT much money? What is the whole experience like?

CHRCNF

Work your way up. Done a 20K yet? Just requires oxygen in the plane, you get 95 seconds of freefall, and there is a noticeable difference in the view.

Did one this summer and it was amazing how many points we turned given our very average skills. I believe it was about 20 points, every 4th of which was spinning an Oppenheimer for about 5 seconds. What a gas; wish we had gotten video.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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PSA: none of what has been advocated so far in this thread is reflective of how a HALO jump is done in the military and in fact, there is a lot that has not been mentioned. For those interested, there are several older threads that discuss the issues and the correct way to do this, a search will bring those threads up.

I second what Scott said. Do not confuse skydiver yahoo high altitude jumps with what the military does. Much of what the civilian bigway considers "safe" is complete nonsense and utterly unsafe for most of the people who participate on those jumps.

Chuck

[HALO1 0]

Ditto to SM. Unless you've done both (Mil - Civ)...

Don't be sexist… Broads hate that.

[mjosparky 3]

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I do not agree that 500 psi pressure will kill you instantly, because the bailout bottle is 4 times that pressure, and although it is easy to breathe and hard to exhale, I have used it many times, and I am still alive.

You may not have been aware of it but you had to have some type of pressure reducer of some type. If you breathe O2 at 500 psi it will blow your lungs out. That is over 30 times the pressure you encounter at sea level.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

> The Oxygen in the master supply ( a three foot long bottle) is pressured at
>2000 psi + or -, and it is then reduced to about 500 psi + or -. From that
>reduction regulator, it is then fed to the demand regulator, which breaks it
>down even further to ambient or normal breathing.

Right; the O2 you are breathing is at ambient (or slightly above ambient for overpressure systems.)

>I do not agree that 500 psi pressure will kill you instantly . . .

It will - but the second stage of the regulator prevents you from seeing that pressure. It drops that 500 psi down to ambient or slightly higher (i.e. 10psi absolute.)

[chuteless 1]

However, you still get the full pressure from a bailout bottle, which is 2000psi, but it drops off rapidly. The original blast is noticable, but there is nothing to fear from it.

I have used many bailout bottles, and never encountered a problem.

The supply of oxygen from the main bottle ( 3 ft long) is reduced and then further reduced to what you require through a demand regulator.

[billvon 2,400]

>However, you still get the full pressure from a bailout bottle, which is
>2000psi, but it drops off rapidly. The original blast is noticable, but there
>is nothing to fear from it.

If it was 2000 PSI, there would indeed be a lot to fear from it, since it would kill you instantly.

The reason it doesn't is that is is only a PSI or two (at most) over ambient. The regulator drops the pressure. You never see that 2000 PSI on your face.

[riggerrob 558]

"

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FYI: ... I had exceptional equipment, and advice from people much smarter than you will ever be, Canadian military personnel.

"

...................................................................

By any chance was that Medical Doctor/Capian Costello?i
I met him - in Canadian Forces Base Shearwater in the early 1980s.

[chuteless 1]

In the bailout bttle, there is NO regulator. The full blast of what is in the bottle comes through the bottle's top, and through a small rubber hose and directly into your mask.

I have filled these bottles many many times,and they do NOT have a regulator, only a small guage showing the 2000 psi pressure.

You have to forcibly exhale once you activate the bottle.
. Go check it out.

Bill

[chuteless 1]

No.....Dr ( Captain) Larry Costello has no HALO experience, except for jumping ( as me) for the Carling Beer commercial. He was a Captain ( not taking a med course) when he handed me the chute on the Chuteless jump done Aug 20th 1069.

The medical personel I dealt with were all employed at the Defence and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine, at Base Dowsnview, north side of Toronto.

Bill

[billvon 2,400]

I have no doubt that you have extensive experience maintaining and using this equipment, and I am glad it has worked for you.

But you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to what's happening on a physical level. Which is fine; you don't need to. This is mainly a warning to other people who might attempt to put together a similar system; you would die a particularly gruesome death if you used a system set up similar to the one you describe.

>You have to forcibly exhale once you activate the bottle. . Go check it out.

I have. I jumped it. That's a few PSI overpressure you are exhaling against - not 2000.

[mjosparky 3]

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In the bailout bttle, there is NO regulator. The full blast of what is in the bottle comes through the bottle's top, and through a small rubber hose and directly into your mask.

I have filled these bottles many many times,and they do NOT have a regulator, only a small guage showing the 2000 psi pressure.

You have to forcibly exhale once you activate the bottle.
. Go check it out.

Bill

I don’t what kind of bottle you used but it wasn’t a “bail out bottle”. I sounds like a standard O2 bottle for medical use.
Below is at picture of a twin 53 bail out bottle with an AIROX III assembly. There is a pressure reducer in in manifold on top of the bottles and there is pressure reducer in the AIROX III. To do it right and do it safe it takes a complete system of components

Sparky


http://www.flickr.com/photos/53825637@N06/5031218232/in/set-72157624878106281/

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chuteless 1]

Billvon: Check out google " HIGH ALTITUDE OXYGEN BAILOUT SYSTEMS " and you will get to see the green bailout bottle, with the " greend apple" handle to activate it. It is filled to 1800 psi, and has a guage bu no regulator.

You will also see if you scroll down, the small brass nipple or stem, which is broken when the handle is pulled.

The oxygen then flows through the broken stem, which has about a 1/16th inch hole to allow the oxygen to exit through the top. There uis no regulator, as you will notce in the photos, but there is a guage to indicate the bottle pressure, and when it is deemed empty.

It then flows into a rubber hose, usually about 12 to 18 inches in length, and it has a 3/8th inch ID. As the oxygen passes through that hose, it then enters into the hose which goes to the mask, approzimately 7/8th inch in ID, and into the mask.

It is a pressureized flow, and one has to forcibly exhale, but only for about 20 seconds....then it is quite normal breathing.

Some pressure is vented out through the exhalation vaves in the side of the mask, but it provides about 10 minutes of oxygen, enough to get you down to ambiant air. I never removed my mask until my chute was opened.

These bailout bottles ( for the most part) were green in color, high pressure (1800 psi), and by the time the oxtgen gets to your face through two different sized hoses, it is a blast at first, which gets weaker as the minutes in freefall pass.

The twin bottle setup, that Sparky shows, is NOT the most standard type for military use. I had several of those, but always used the single bottle, about 10 inches long, and approx 2 to 2 1/4 inches in diatmeter.

Sparky says I wasnt using a bailout bottle, and he doesnt know what he is talking about....and that is a certainty.

It was Canadian military issue, and is standarad in both Canada and the USA.

[chuteless 1]

Billvon: Check out google: www.mfwright.com/30Kphotos.html


This is the bailout bottle similar to the one I had and used for years.

Photo of the brass valve that is broken by pulling the green apple handle.

This is a steel bottle and is filled to 1800 psi.

Bill

[divnswoop 0]

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It was Canadian military issue, and is standarad in both Canada and the USA.

...and has been replaced by more modern equipment several years ago.

[LouDiamond 1]

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The twin bottle setup, that Sparky shows, is NOT the most standard type for military use.

That is absolutely, 100% not true. That bottle set up is the most widely used system in the US Armed forces. There are a few others, but by quantity and use, the twin 53s with the AirOX VIII (8) for use with the MBU-12 oxygen mask is the predominant system used and seen by military units, to include foreign.

There are other systems(bottles and masks) that are being used by the military in smaller quantities but they are not the norm yet. I've personally been involved with developmental testing and evaluation of most of the current and the new/emerging O2 masks and the bottles out there for military use.

While I am sure you used the O2 system that you described, I must tell you that your account of the pressures and some of the facts are simply wrong, as has been pointed out by BillVon. I don't care to turn this into a dick contest but I think your recollections and facts are off.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mjosparky 3]

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Sparky says I wasnt using a bailout bottle, and he doesnt know what he is talking about....and that is a certainty.

You just keep telling yourself that.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals